Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Hoss

Coming to line with hammer back penalty

Recommended Posts

currently a SDQ. Should it be made to a no call if proven no round under hammer? 

 

My thought would be if round under hammer = SDQ or even MDQ. I  cant think of anything more dangerous. if no live round under hammer than MSV. I don't think it should go unpunished. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm for a Minor safety.  I did this once the first monthly match with a brand new '73 on the first stage I hadn't even cleaned yet.  I wasn't given the penalty, but it was used as a training opportunity for the whole posse... 

 

Ever since then I've always closed and clicked at the berm when arriving at the loading table.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion....All the way cocked a minor safety penalty on an empty chamber. In the safety notch and not all the way down on an empty chamber a no call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope way to dangerous for just a MSV.   Who would determine if a live round was under the hammer??   Playing with a fire arm cocked to determine if a round is under the hammer can get someone killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From pinned post on first page of Wire re: TG Meeting at EOT.

 

1.     The first was to eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the ULT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle.  In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm and pull the trigger.  If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call).  If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT.  This idea met with the approval of the TGs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

From pinned post on first page of Wire re: TG Meeting at EOT.

 

1.     The first was to eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the ULT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle.  In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm and pull the trigger.  If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call).  If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT. 

This idea met with the approval of the TGs.

 

That used to be SOP at many clubs/matches until it was realized that others were assessing a SDQ for "moving with a cocked/loaded firearm"...whether there was a live round under the cocked hammer or not.
Those advocating for the SDQ prevailed...the question now is whether to change the current rule/procedure/penalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question, If your hammer was at the first catch or "half-cock", NOT FULLY BACK OR FULLY COCKED, is that considered as "Hammer Back"? I just always make sure mine is all the way down and never really though to much about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Notso Slim, SASS #67301 said:

Question, If your hammer was at the first catch or "half-cock", NOT FULLY BACK OR FULLY COCKED, is that considered as "Hammer Back"?

 

Yes, per current rules 

 

hammer fully down is the wording 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Notso Slim, SASS #67301 said:

Question, If your hammer was at the first catch or "half-cock", NOT FULLY BACK OR FULLY COCKED, is that considered as "Hammer Back"?

 

 

YES:

Quote

Cocked – hammer not fully down (full, half-cock or safety notch). 

SHB p.42

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full cock, SDQ  If it somehow got racked at the loading table you could easily hit the trigger, have an AD and hurt someone or worse.  Half cock/saftey notch,   Point it at the back berm, bring to full cock under the direction of your TO, and pull the trigger, No Bang, No call.    Bang, SDQ  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i might be inclined if its half cock but if full , i think its a DQ 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More than one person has snagged a hammer on something getting their guns from the loading table to the firing line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For most normal stuff, I'm a give the doubt to the shooter.  In matters of safety, I'm a hard liner.  We play this game with real guns with real ammunition.  If the shooter arrives on the line with the hammer back, SDQ.  Safe the gun and head for the ULT.  No apologies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

More than one person has snagged a hammer on something getting their guns from the loading table to the firing line.

Situational awareness is part of gun safety as well. Once you experience firsthand an AD happen next to you at the loading table, a SDQ for the hammer being back suddenly doesn't seem so out of line. It is often said that you "own" the stage from LT to ULT, is it too much of a challenge to keep your focus for that brief of time?

 

You have a responsibility to be safe for the others around you as much as for yourself!

IMO hammer back....SDQ

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But if you eliminate the penalty or change it to a MSV you then have to deal with the knock-on issues.  If the rifle is staged somewhere and no one sees it is fully cocked until after the beep is it then instantly a SDQ if someone does notice it?  Even though it was a MSV or a no call a moment ago?  Do you stop the shooter?  It makes managing the rule way more complex.

 

I'm also not sure walking around with a cocked hammer after the loading table can be described as a minor safety issue.  The single largest safety buffer we have with single actions of all kinds is the condition of the hammer.  It is the first of the 2 step process to fire the gun.  To keep cowboy action shooting on good terms with ranges and to be allowed to keep using leather and keep carrying our guns to and from the staging tables loaded we need to keep a tight rein on rules regarding condition of the hammer.  It is the only thing we have to lean on in many cases to justify the safety of many things we do.  WE know it's very safe in general, but when you have to explain it to a board of directors at a range they like to hear things like "The hammers must be down which we can very easily see, or a SDQ is given."  That makes everyone warm and fuzzy and has for the most part worked well all over the country for many years.

 

The safety notch on rifles is a slightly different issue.  It has been a plague of a problem forever.  The best answer has always been to just remove the notch from the hammer

.  I wouldn't be against lowering that one to a MSV or even no call if we can find a simple way to word it but if we have to mess with the fully cocked rules I'd say just leave the whole thing alone.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My 2c

             If a shooter when  commencing a stage with a pistol has a faltered start, let's say his glasses slip & he  has  a cocked the pistol then with the TO's approval can decock then why cannot the same apply to the rifle if the shooter arrives at the line with the hammer back, providing it has not left the hands, then  if nothing under the hammer when levered the stage continues or there is the appropriate STOP given if  a live round is jacked out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I say keep it a SDQ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That used to be SOP at many clubs/matches until it was realized that others were assessing a SDQ for "moving with a cocked/loaded firearm"...whether there was a live round under the cocked hammer or not.
Those advocating for the SDQ prevailed...the question now is whether to change the current rule/procedure/penalty.

When coming to the line, the rifle is "loaded". Seems the operative word is "cocked" and that cocked and empty is a different case. Rules could be applied out of context. "Moving with a cocked/loaded firearm" would make sense to me as a no-no if on the clock with gun in hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done it ONCE!! :huh: Quite a few years back at a state match. SDQ..:o

I've NEVER done it twice... 

I called it a good learning experience...

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' leave it alone.. :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I vote no call if it doesn't go bang.  SDQ if it does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep as is. SDQ. 

 

Gringo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of the shooter showing (by aiming at the back berm and pulling the trigger) whether or not the hammer is over a live round or not.  If no round under the hammer continue staging the guns and shoot the stage.  If it goes bang, SDQ.  Otherwise, no call.

 

Just my thoughts,

Barry Sloe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts.  Pull trigger at back berm. No bang no foul.  Bang mdq 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much too dangerous. Keep the rule the way it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that there should be a different rule for “full cock” vs “half cock” (safety notch).  

 

Full cock can present a real and immediate danger of unintentional discharge.  Having the hammer down is an excellent visual that the gun is not in a condition ready to fire.  

 

Half cock, when gor the safety cock, while widely condemned and discouraged as a carry method, is still more safe than full cock or after grinding off the notch, having the hammer down on a live round.

 

The SDQ penalty for going to the line with the rifle on half cock certainly encourages grinding off the notch, eliminating the possibility of a SDQ for that.  Having no safety notch does increase the likelihood of an AD if the hammer falls because of a worn sear, light trigger pull jarring the gun, or other reasons.  

 

I have no problem with a SDQ or MSV for having the hammer at full cock when going to the line.  But going to the line with the hammer at half cock should be a No-Call or at most a MSV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full cocked =SDQ

Should somebody get their spurs tangled up, one of us might find out it was a live round under that cocked hammer before it ever gets pointed at the berm.

I'll take the DQ over that anyday.

 

1/2 cock empty chamber- maybe a no call but not full cock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SHB page 22 SDQ's

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)

 

 

- Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked.

 

I absolutely hate making this call, but if you move with any long gun anywhere else during the coarse of fire with the hammer back, with or without a round in the chamber it is a SDQ. Why should coming from the loading table be treated any differently?

 

Tully

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you come to the line with an empty chamber and the hammer cocked.  You have only 1 level of safety left if you pull the trigger.  So I believe a SDQ is proper.

 

So you come to the line with an empty chamber and the gun on safe...  So if you pull the trigger, you still have 2 levels of safety (After pulling the trigger)  So actually more safe than with the hammer down and not blocked by anything.  So I would say either minor safety or no call.

 

When I first started I figured you would want to use all safety measure, so I was surprised that the game wanted me to bypass one safety measure - the safety on my rifle.

 

So now, like many others, I ground off the safety notch of my 66 & 73....  So I must warn anyone who would buy it from me that a safety feature was removed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would change the rule to eliminate the penalty for having the rifle hammer on the safety notch.

 

I would leave the full cock penalty as a SDQ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Others have already said this, but I'd be in favor of leaving it the same for full cock, but if on half cock, aim it downrange and pull the trigger.  If boom, SDQ*, if no boom, stage your guns and say your line. 

 

I like that it will stop encouraging us to defeat a safety device, and it still gets the point across that the hammers are to be fully down.  Next question is, would the rule change only apply to moving from the LT or to the ULT, or would it apply during the course of fire as well?  IMO, it would not apply during the course of fire, as things are happening too fast.  If you put your rifle on half cock mid stage for some reason, the odds of there being a live round in the chamber are much higher. 

 

*this is assuming that the penalty for moving with a cocked firearm with a live round chambered is SDQ, if not, apply the already established penalty. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.