Concealed Carry at a Match

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

14 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Big Iron,

 

What is a "soft uniform?" If it shows that you are a LEO, IMO, you should be good to carry anywhere when wearing it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Allie, it is 5.11 style pants with a polo that has our badge/logo embroidered on the chest. Armed with badge on waist when wearing that uniform.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

52 minutes ago, Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 said:

Allie, it is 5.11 style pants with a polo that has our badge/logo embroidered on the chest. Armed with badge on waist when wearing that uniform.

That's how many of our detectives and training staff dressed while at work.  Good luck disarming them.

[Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632]

5 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

That's how many of our detectives and training staff dressed while at work.  Good luck disarming them.

Yep, PD Academy attire for the past 6 years. I have stored a BUG in my cart once or twice over the years only because I forgot I had it with me and match was starting. never carried on the line but that is just me.

[San Joaquin Shootist]

Did anyone notice the young ladies S&W auto in the video jammed?

 

As for the topic being discussed I agree with Creeker.

[Scarlett]

The original post asked about competitors but what about Vendors? Conventioneers? Im a cwp holder and carry all day, every day as does my husband. At matches, I’m a competitor and do not carry or wear anything other than match guns... my husband is not a competitor however, and is vending. Our livelihood is in our tent. Shouldn’t we be allowed to protect it should the need arise? Last year, a vendor was robbed, not at gunpoint, of some rather expensive merchandise. This game is a big draw for spectators and sometimes, nutty folks.  Not everyone who comes to check out matches knows the “etiquette”, and, I think some feign ignorance in order to make us feel more comfortable/relaxed and then they take advantage - which happened to my vendor buddies...  I’ve only been to one match that had visible and armed security... Marauder has a point. 

 

Hugs,

Scarlett

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Nothing wrong there by just being there &  CCW and just  picking up your packet or being a spectator. 

 

 

 

[Pat Riot]

I have a CHL. I carry to and from matches but my carry gun stays in my truck at the range. I am not a member of the club where our matches are held. I follow the rules for non-members. I am not an officer of the law. 

 

I figure if I need a firearm on the range I have one handy in my cart and there are plenty of other folks there with firearms who I am pretty sure know how to use them.

Besides, I am carrying enough crap around as it is...

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Very nicely stated Pat Riot.

 

JRJ

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

I am glad you feel safe at SASS matches, however near Boulder, Co number of years ago several shooters were shot at a range and thier guns stolen. The robber waited until they had shot thier guns dry, then pointed his gun at them. One resisted when he started to walk them to the trees and he ended up shooting 2 or 4 of them.

 

So when you are gathered around listening to the stage description who has your back?

 

SR

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

The original post asked about competitors but what about Vendors? Conventioneers? Im a cwp holder and carry all day, every day as does my husband. At matches, I’m a competitor and do not carry or wear anything other than match guns... my husband is not a competitor however, and is vending. Our livelihood is in our tent. Shouldn’t we be allowed to protect it should the need arise? Last year, a vendor was robbed, not at gunpoint, of some rather expensive merchandise. This game is a big draw for spectators and sometimes, nutty folks.  Not everyone who comes to check out matches knows the “etiquette”, and, I think some feign ignorance in order to make us feel more comfortable/relaxed and then they take advantage - which happened to my vendor buddies...  I’ve only been to one match that had visible and armed security... Marauder has a point.

 

A vendor can quite easily just ask the Match director discretely - even before you go to the match.   Vendors not subject to getting MDQ'd since they are not competitors.    If they say they won't let vendors carry, then perhaps you insist on paid armed security provided by match (they might even change their mind at that point!)

 

 

Now, the philosophical question - Are you allowed to protect your property with lethal force?  Unfortunately, that is not a citizen's right under the law in several states.  Just action in self defense.   And other states, yes you can.  As CCW, you HAVE to know those laws.    "Should" really doesn't count for anything in most courts.  If it's your livelihood, insurance is a necessity I'd imagine.

 

SASS matches are likely much safer than other places you might be during a road trip (hotel property, gas station, restaurant). 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Scarlett]

32 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Now, the philosophical question - Are you allowed to protect your property with lethal force?  Unfortunately, that is not a citizen's right under the law in several states.  Just action in self defense.   And other states, yes you can.  As CCW, you HAVE to know those laws.    "Should" really doesn't count for anything in most courts.  If it's your livelihood, insurance is a necessity I'd imagine.

You are absolutely correct on this point and I hear you... we DO read up on the laws re CCW, transport etc, prior to travel especially since we travel in the Northeast a good bit...

 

I shouldn’t have said “should”... when really it is about protection from imminent threat/loss of life (not property)... 

 

I thought this thread was interesting and wanted to bring the Vendor perspective into it. 

 

Hugs, 

Scarlett 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I've  heard reports of people shooting at blm land or other isolated places with few people around getting robbed. I don't  recall ever hearing about shooters at a well populated  range or shooting match getting robbed at gunpoint. Now I  have seen reports of guns, magazine or ammo taken when someone wasn't  paying attention. I always carry when I'm at a range practicing.

[Henry T Harrison]

I have watched this topic for several days before chiming in. As an active police officer I would toss my snub nose in the consol of my truck and it would stay there. My shotgun rode behind the seat in an unzipped case with a couple rounds in my pocket, that was sufficient as far a I was concerned. I saw no reason to carry on the range.

As far as a cold range to me they are very unsafe. Cold ranges lead to lax gun handling where everyone feels that since all guns are "unloaded" careless gun handling becomes common. Most negligent discharges happen when loading and unloading.

Officers at work were encouraged to leave their guns loaded and holstered when put in their lockers, the less handling the better.

Our academy range was hot at the end of the range sessions duty weapons were reloaded on the line and holstered. Removing the gun from the holster after leaving the line was prohibited.

The sportsmans club where I'm a life member runs a range so cold that you can't bring your holstered ccw to the range at all. They are so anal that if you bring a double gun case to the line both guns better be pointed down range or you will be disciplined. And yes everything is recorded and club officers can monitor the range from the internet at home. Needless to say I don't shoot there anymore.

 

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 3:15 PM, Rustler, SASS #33316 said:

 

Barry,

 

That is one of the reason's I have asked this question, but if it is concealed how would we know... :-)

To me, asking "how would we know " implies that you only have to follow the rules if someone knows about it.  I feel the rule of a cold range applies to everyone except L.E. in uniform.

[Slick McClade]

On 2/6/2018 at 2:32 PM, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

IMHO, when shooting at a match, I would have no need to conceal carry.

The primary purpose is for personal protection.

I am the safest I can ever be at a match.

Besides, anyone that may mean me or anyone else there harm must face:

  

                       Cowboy Action Shooters (and we won't miss).

I understand, but an unloaded cowboy gun is no good !! By the time someone can get one loaded under stress/Fire the situation will most likely be over.

 

[Silver Creek Jack]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:40 PM, Dantankerous said:

I cannot imagine why somebody would feel it necessary to carry concealed any cowboy action shooting match. At least not a competitor. Quite possibly a spectator, only because they usually carry anyway.

 

 I've never thought even once about doing it. At a cowboy match that's about the safest place any of us could be.

 

Yup, I agree, if spectators are carrying no problem. As a competitor why would you want to cc when you are already armed to the teeth? 

[Slick McClade]

17 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

There is just no reason for concealed carry while competing. If playing on a cold range then that is the rule and that is that. Does not mater who you are or what you were. 

As far as a group of competitors being robbed of their firearms while on a range at an event. I can't picture that happening without casualties. 

The casualties would be cowboy shooters with unloaded guns. Under stress it would be very hard to get a gun loaded and fire back. Yes people might be at the loading table with a loaded firearm. But how many times do people miss a 16x16 stationary, non threat target in a controlled environment??? If you have a concealed carry LEO on your posse or close by on the next posse the threat could be dealt with properly. Anything thing can happen at any given place, always be prepared and never say never. 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

17 minutes ago, Slick McClade said:

I understand, but an unloaded cowboy gun is no good !! By the time someone can get one loaded under stress/Fire the situation will most likely be over.

 

 

Slick:

    I respect your response; however, my response pertained specifically to attendance at a match, where there are many posses, in multiple close locations.

    I might think differently if I was at the range shooting by myself.

    I have always believed that if someone, and I mean anyone, wants to take a gun somewhere and shoot them, they most likely will succeed. Would they get away unharmed, not likely depending on the circumstances.

    Let's say you have 10 shooters on a posse in a berm and a spectator pulls a 9mm and starts shooting. Could I be hit, sure. Would there be multiple injuries and/or deaths, sure. Would the shooter be shot, most likely.

    I'd like to state my position again, and that is -  I would feel more protected being with my fellow posse members, than anywhere else I would be, other than at home, and don't even try there.

[Snakebite]

First off... if it is concealed properly, then no one knows.... End of Story. That said, the property owner has the right to determine who can carry on his/her property in regards to civilians. Many matches specifically state that only registered competitors may carry firearms other than LEOs. I've carried for over 40 yrs, but I see no need to carry any guns other than my match guns at a match.  IMO the whole idea is silly. I've been a DOJ instructor for CCW, and must say that there are many folks that just "Get Off" on carrying a gun, it really make them feel Tough ... those guys make me nervous. If you are gonna do it, then do it. Keep your mouth shut about it and move on.

 

Snakebite 

[Ramblin Gambler]

I don't think I've ever shot at a hot range unless you count shooting in my buddies back yard.  I wouldn't even think of carrying concealed to a range.  In the case of a cowboy shoot, put me in the category of people who don't need more crap to carry around.  And if it's a regular range, I'm most likely going to be shooting my CCW, so it needs to be treated like all the other guns. 

 

Security at a cowboy shoot.  Like someone else said, we can load and fire them shootguns purty durn fast.  On top of that, if I wasn't near a shootgun, I'd probably pull my empty pistols and point them at the bad guy until I could get to a shotgun.  If a lot of us do that, I'd say there's a pretty good chance of the bad guy deciding he's got better places to be. 

 

Security on a regular range is a bit simpler.  Keep a loaded magazine handy and if trouble happens, you can be loaded pretty quick. 

 

I don't feel the least bit uncomfortable with responsible people carrying on the range.  If they're competing, special dispensation would have to be made for them. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

3 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

First off... if it is concealed properly, then no one knows.... End of Story. That said, the property owner has the right to determine who can carry on his/her property in regards to civilians. Many matches specifically state that only registered competitors may carry firearms other than LEOs. I've carried for over 40 yrs, but I see no need to carry any guns other than my match guns at a match.  IMO the whole idea is silly. I've been a DOJ instructor for CCW, and must say that there are many folks that just "Get Off" on carrying a gun, it really make them feel Tough ... those guys make me nervous. If you are gonna do it, then do it. Keep your mouth shut about it and move on.

 

Snakebite 

+1.  Most gun shows do not allow their vendors to carry.

[Dantankerous]

At a cold SASS range while competing and the scenario posed previous takes place...an unloaded Ruger Vaquero would make a very effective blunt instrument to either throw at or beat an assailant with.

 

I am only half joking.

 

 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

It will give everyone the opportunity to practice their rifle reloads!

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It will give everyone the opportunity to practice their rifle reloads!

 

Or shotgun

 

Oh, and did anyone else notice the two handed shooters in the pic Father Garth posted?

 

[Shooting Bull]

Some of the reasoning sounds incredibly familiar and far too unsettling. “You don’t NEED a rifle that shoots 20 rounds per second.” “You don’t NEED a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds.” “You don’t NEED to carry a gun everywhere you go.” “For goodness sake, what are you so afraid of that you NEED to have a gun with you ALL the time?” 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

7 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

To me, asking "how would we know " implies that you only have to follow the rules if someone knows about it.  I feel the rule of a cold range applies to everyone except L.E. in uniform.

Rules only have weight or value to those that would abide by them.  When confronted by situations that require me to disarm and to place my trust in "rules"; I have three options...

1. I can choose to leave that environment and not participate or be present at the event or gathering.

2. I can stay and choose to abide by their arbitrary rules; disarming and hoping their bold print signage, minimum wage security staff and the great protection fairy in the sky will keep me safe.

or

3. I can exercise my God given right to protect my (and loved ones) life and liberty.  I can carry properly, discretely and responsibly in a manner not discernible by others.

I can do so without advertising or disclosing my status thru my words, attire or actions.

I acknowledge the legal risks of my choices but unless I am forced to use my firearm to defend myself or others...

No one will ever know I have it.

And if after I use my firearm to defend myself or others; I have to face legal consequence for violating someone's "Don't carry here" proclamation... 

I will do so happily knowing my actions or presence may have saved a life.

 

I am far more willing to face the penalties of having it and not needing it 

than the penalty

of needing it and not having it.

 

Lastly, while I have all the respect in the world for Law Enforcement; I do not believe their right to self defense or firearms carry supercedes my own. 

If they feel it is valid and appropriate to be armed; then I have to agree with them and should be armed myself.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I agree with Creeker. 

 

The local Whole Foods has a sign 'prohibiting guns' but Georgia law says I can carry right up to the point they ask me to leave.  As long as I then leave I'm in no legal jeopardy.  I ignore their sign, so far no one there has ever made me, but if they do I'll take my money somewhere else.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

20 hours ago, San Joaquin Shootist said:

Did anyone notice the young ladies S&W auto in the video jammed?

 

As for the topic being discussed I agree with Creeker.

I believe the young lady was shooting a grey framed Kel-Tec pistol.

Which are not horrible pistols; but are a far cry from Smith & Wesson.

I could not discern whether a 9mm or  380acp.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

21 hours ago, San Joaquin Shootist said:

Did anyone notice the young ladies S&W auto in the video jammed?

 

As for the topic being discussed I agree with Creeker.

 

3 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I believe the young lady was shooting a grey framed Kel-Tec pistol.

Which are not horrible pistols; but are a far cry from Smith & Wesson.

I could not discern whether a 9mm or  380acp.

That lady had a gun? Somehow I didn't notice

[Alpo]

I'm kinda amazed at the way people handle guns where most of y'all live. They are all imbecilic maladroits.

 

They take out their carry piece and play with it!!

 

They constantly are dropping their carry piece when they move around?!!

 

And that's just part of one day at a match. Just THINK about the rest of the week.

 

Standing in line at the Safeway, take out your gun and start twirling it.

 

Lean over to put the nozzle in your tank and your gun falls out of your holster and skittles off across the gas station pavement.

 

Boy. I'm sure glad I live where it's safe.

 

As for "NEED". Someone, up the thread, said he's never NEEDED his carry gun at a match.

 

I can go one better. I've never NEEDED mine - period. But I've been carrying one for more than twenty years.

[Lead Monger]

Interesting to me that some folks feel it's ok to ignore rules if nobody knows about it.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Interesting how many people are willing to blindly follow a rule and not question it’s validity. 

[San Joaquin Shootist]

5 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I believe the young lady was shooting a grey framed Kel-Tec pistol.

Which are not horrible pistols; but are a far cry from Smith & Wesson.

I could not discern whether a 9mm or  380acp.

 

I stand corrected, at a glance I thought it was a 3913.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

When someone else feels they have the right to decide what YOU do, or don't need- YOU aren't free anymore.

Or they have the right to decide WHERE we may excercise our rights, or WHEN. Then we aren't free.

Remind me- what part of the second ammendment contains the word "EXCEPT"?

A lot of people who say they support the 2nd Ammendment really don't. They don't really believe in freedom , either. 

Ben Franklin said it all: "Those who would give up essential liberty for a little safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".   Words to live by. 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Folks also have the right to relieve their bowels when mother nature renders it necessary, just not in my front yard!

 

If someone wants to crap in my front yard, or in front of my place of business, and I tell them no, are they no longer free? I'd say defecation is more of a God given right than 2A. You simply have no control over it.

 

I think the biggest point some of you are missing is private property rights. If you feel excluded of your 2A rights, then just move it on down the road. Opinions and rights don't necessarily have to co-exist, nor do we need to begrudge one another, or pigeon hole one another over our differences.

 

We can still get along and be friends.