Creeker, SASS #43022

Congratulations. Everyone should be blessed to live in their version of Heaven.

It may well be Timer Operator error - but people do not like to be called out or admit a mistake (you see it all the time with spotters) - they lose concentration, end up in the wrong position, etc. and then instead of admitting their error - they just copy the count of another. Timers are just as falliable - they go the wrong way, hold timers incorrectly, lose concentration, get focused on another task (safety, round counts, assisting the shooter) instead of watching the timer - a million things can occur that can lead to an incorrect time (and the timer may not even be aware of the issue or may not want to admit their "possible" error) Again - I am not saying ANYONE is cheating; I am simply asking IF a time that doesn't seem right can be challenged? By whom? And by what rule?

The consensus repeated time after time is "failing to award someone their deserved penalty (a P, a Safety, a Miss, whatever) is penalizing EVERY other shooter at the match" Wouldn't the contrary be just as true? Allowing an OBVIOUSLY incorrect score to be recorded is a disadvantage to every other shooter at the match. I can dispute someones BP smoke. I can call out a shooter with illegal equipment. I can call out a lack of required equipment (safety or category specific). But we simply are going to allow 35 second shooters to be scored with 16 second times because of camaraderie? Again this is not about deliberate action or cheating - this is about "something aint right". I don't expect shooters to volunteer they missed a target and I don't expect shooters to dispute their own times. But when "something aint right" - is there a mechanism to ensure the time recorded is accurate?

There is ZERO requirement that all shots are recorded. No one is implying cheating or nefarious intention. The questions are very simple... Can a shooters time be disputed? By whom? Under what conditions and in accordance with what rule?

"Most" of us would ethically agree to a reshoot in the case of an obvious incorrect time. But what if the shooter just decides they somehow channeled Badlands Bud that stage AND there is no obvious timer malfunction - is there any recourse? Can it be protested? By whom? And by what rule would this be supported?

Based on what rule?

As far as I know - there is no official SASS rule or position regarding this question. A shooter completes the stage in a time that is very VERY unlikely/ impossible for this shooter. Now, we all know IF the cause of this incorrect time is TO error, timer malfunction or other known issue; sadly the shooter is informed they must reshoot to record a valid score. It sucks, but to maintain integrity - it has to be done, and the shooter will often agree, "Yeah, I couldn't shoot that time ever". But - what is the procedure when the shooter completes the stage in a time that is very unlikely/ impossible for this shooter AND there is no obvious cause for the error? The time is called out and everyone collectively says, "That can't be right". Shooter grins and says - Wow, I'm good. Can his time be protested? Who can protest his time? RO, Posse Leader, his competitors? Can the shooter be REQUIRED to reshoot? Under what rules? Handbook says, benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter. But a 40 second shooter scoring a 20? A 20 second shooter scoring a 14? What would your club do?

Had a fellow cowboy shooter come into my shop today. He has moved into the Pahrump area from Arizona, "El Loco Roho" SASS 59615L He has had some health issues and says that he may not be able to return to Cowboy Action Shooting. But he would like to be able to, at minimum, do some Cowboy re-enactment. He is, in his words, computer illiterate - so I am assisting him solely as a courtesy to a fellow cowboy. I am making no money from this effort; but if I am out of line posting this - please delete. He is seeking a brass backstrap 45 Colt single action, mostly because of it's looks (brand is immaterial - formerly had a Jager Dakota). His budget is sub $500. Let me know and I will forward information so you may correspond directly.

True enough. If someone wants to place midpack - they should seek instruction from someone that places midpack. I always looked to the folks in the top 10% for advice. I could still place midpack because of my personal abilities and limitations - but it will NEVER be because I failed to seek out advice from and implement the gear, guns, ammo, practice and mindset of the top shooters (to the best of my personal abilities and limitations). If a shooter aspires to more than they currently are - they have to find where improvements exist. It is not enough to simply say, "miss less OR shoot faster". Identification of a shooters specific challenge(s) requires an understanding of EVERY component of the game - the observational skills to determine which component(s) are holding a shooter back AND the know how required to implement any fixes required to advance. Yes, shooters of any level "might" have this knowledge - but they would have to be a student of the game; and realistically - most folks willing to work hard enough to acquire the knowledge are the same shooters that move to the top.

Slow cannot win. Never has - never will. Accuracy and speed are not equally valid; accuracy is a technical, repeatable function. Speed is a mindset and much more difficult to master. Anyone endorsing accuracy over speed will never stand atop the podium.

No - Absolutely NO. The reason new shooters need to seek out QUALITY advice is to avoid having to figure it out for thenselves - to avoid making the same mistakes (guns, gear, ammo, practice, mindset) that the previous generation(s) of this game have already made. A shooter needs to have an idea of their primary concept of the game; what aspects are MOST important to them (competition, relaxation, socialization, etc) and then seek the advice of those with a like outlook. If you are PRIMARILY looking to "compete" - adopting the advice of a "socializer" is not only pointless; but may actually be detrimental regarding choices of guns, gear, ammo, practice and mindset. The converse is just as true - a shooter who is there PRIMARILY for the camaraderie and history; their experience is not being advanced by the advice of the competitor. I am a competitor. My skillset may no longer support it - but my mindset is ALWAYS about performance. I enjoy being friendly and seeing familiar faces; but if I had to choose between chatting with others or shooting well - I'd ignore everyone at the match. So someone looking at the social aspect would not want my advice because my idea of fun and attitudes toward guns, gear, ammo, practice and mindset are likely not going to align with theirs - and if I am an early interaction with that shooter - my ideas may turn them off before they figure it out for themselves. A shooter can always modify their direction - their primary purpose or interest in the game. But advising a new shooter to accept advice from every other SHOOTER; advice that will often be contradictory and only applicable to the agenda of the person offering it - is detrimental to that shooter finding their best path. And it IS about winning - if it's not; why do we keep score?

Exactly. (right or wrong) I believe that within any field in which I am trained to a level or perform as a professional; that I am as competent as any other at that same task. I would not turn over taking care of my family to someone else until the issue bypassed my skillset.

Oh, the horrors. A Colt Python that might actually live out its life as more than a pampered safe queen. The Colt Python is actually a "firearm" and fairly decent when used for that purpose - it is not "a piece of art" or an inviolate holy relic. I enjoy seeing seeing items allowed to fulfill their true potential. There are some that would rail against the "modifications/ butchering" of our firearms as well; but we reply that cutting up a Browning SxS or Winchester 97's is completely appropriate for their use in our game. There are some that wail and knash their teeth at the chopped top of a street rod - or the suspension changes on a sports car; but the owner replies these changes were integral to their vision or use of the car. In my opinion; there is always a beauty in any tool being optimized to provide the best result for its owners intended purpose. Lastly, if your still hung up on its appearance - think about it like the pretty girl with the bleached hair, piercings and tattoo... You may think she ruined her looks; but she was never going home with you anyways.

I wear lacers for the same reasons. Well, maybe not the fast part, as that ship has sailed. But a combination of too many years of football and wrestling (broke both of my ankles more than once) AND then after college of carrying too much fat around have done a number on my ankles.

I HATE reloading and if I had unlimited funds - I would never pull the handle on a reloader ever again. But I do not have unlimited funds and I going to assume you do not either. But if you are going to play this game; becoming a fair shooter requires a fair amount of shooting. If you wish to become "fairly good" - it requires 4x more shooting. And if you want more than that - it requires 10x more shooting. All this shooting becomes expensive quickly and the only way to support that much shooting is reloading. You can enter reloading for very minimal cost on a single stage reloader - but honestly, I would rather NEVER shoot than do so. So a progressive press is the bare minimum to supply ammo for this game. (now after stating that; I guarantee - someone will pipe up and state that they reload every round on a single stage press and have done so for a 20 years and a million rounds... These people have "issues" - ignore them ). But even a progressive press does NOT require spending 1 - 2k on a a reloader to offset the cost of shooting. Midway has Lee Pro 1000 progressive presses for well under $300 right now. This press will easily and safely load 300 rounds an hour (more than enough for a monthly) and your break even point for reloading versus buying loaded ammo is less than 1000 rounds. Not as sexy as Big Blue - but a solid tool that gets you going immediately. A year from now - upgrade to better and pass the Lee down to the next new shooter that shows up stating that they would shoot if ammo was cheaper. Or keep the Lee and use it for less shot secondary calibers. Either way - reloading pays for itself very quickly with savings per round, the ability to tailor your rounds to your preferences for recoil/ cleanliness/ feel and component availabilty. To load for differing situations; knockdown targets, long range, main match, etc. Reloading sucks; but having to pay 4x more to buy someone elses ammo or missing shoots because you don't have ammo sucks more.