Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 My thought is that the MD could designate beforehand that stage scores for stage X (probably most difficult) be used as the tie breaker and announce it at the shooters meeting. At least it seems a fair way to provide everyone advance notice, without having to have anymore shoot-offs, etc. Occam's Razor in action. Other ideas? Church Key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 It is an interesting idea. At least as good as some others I've seen. IMHO, it beats tossing a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I do think the possibility of a plethora of ties cropping up is remote ; BUT , because I said that right here in print for all to see , the next big match will no doubt have a tie for 1st place , or a six-man logjam of ties for 5th through 10th. Rex , not sweating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Rings SASS # 27466 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Flipping a coin is even for both shooters. The MD picking a stage could favor one shooters strength over another. Such as a heavy shotgun stage with poppers. SR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 43 minutes ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said: Flipping a coin is even for both shooters. The MD picking a stage could favor one shooters strength over another. Such as a heavy shotgun stage with poppers. SR How would he possibly know which shooters would be tied ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 56 minutes ago, Church Key, SASS # 33713 said: My thought is that the MD could designate beforehand that stage scores for stage X (probably most difficult) be used as the tie breaker and announce it at the shooters meeting. At least it seems a fair way to provide everyone advance notice, without having to have anymore shoot-offs, etc. Occam's Razor in action. Other ideas? Church Key Good idea, the only change I would suggest is selecting the tie breaker stage by random selection. Put numbers for all stages in a hat and have someone draw the stage at the shooters meeting. Not that it should be needed but, in case of a tie, on the tie breaker stage, you could state the process will be to go to the next stage in progression until the tie is broken. All ties should be resolved quickly and everyone knows how it will be done beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 If I ever shoot well enough to tie for first place in a major match, i do not want to be denied the win by a coin flip. I would rather let it sit as a tie. It is what it is. The only fair way to resolve it, if a single winner must be chosen (and I think the free entries are a poor excuse for that) is a shoot-off of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 10 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said: Good idea, the only change I would suggest is selecting the tie breaker stage by random selection. Put numbers for all stages in a hat and have someone draw the stage at the shooters meeting. Not that it should be needed but, in case of a tie, on the tie breaker stage, you could state the process will be to go to the next stage in progression until the tie is broken. All ties should be resolved quickly and everyone knows how it will be done beforehand. Do it by random selection after the match has been scored. That way it doesn't have an impact on how a shooter decides to shoot a particular stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seamus McGillicuddy Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Or, simply provide that the shooter with the fastest stage in the match wins. We all shoot the same stages so no possible advantage to anyone. Seamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Chance Morgun Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 No, No, No! A tie should be broken by rank points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... My thoughts exactly. A win is a win is a win. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 In case of a tie, I suggest a dual in the middle of the street at high noon with shotguns. The winner (or survivor) will then be charged with murder and will be hanged before lunch. Then the 3rd place cowboy will be declared the winner and the bodies of the other 2 will be buried behind the berms in unmarked graves as to not draw any attention to law enforcement. Problem solved FYI: In case of a tie, the winners should split the large cash prizes won at our events and go home happy. There is nothing wrong with an event ending in a tie, I would much rather share the winnings as to lose by a coin toss or some thing else when I did not lose, and I did just as well as the person who I was competing with. Samuel Colt made men equal, and I am shooting Colts............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Why are so many folks worried about a tie ? How many times has it happened ? Tie is fine , stage wins since rank points are established by shooters times it's kinda of silly to say a tie breaker using stage wins is using RP since to get the points you need a time AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 After reading another thread, I thoroughly believe ties should be decided by smoke standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 45 minutes ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... Over the year's we've taken pains to avoid leaving anything to chance, eliminating things such as card draws for start target, dice rolls and such for target order, etc..., and you folks then want to do a coin flip to name a winner for ANY shoot? Shoot-offs are time consuming and may not entirely provide a fair measure of who the winner should be. I once ended up in 3rd place in a match, because the two folks finishing ahead of me tied. It would have been UNfair of me to claim I finished in 2nd... as there were two finishers ahead of me. I also finished in 7th place once, because 7 of us tied for 3rd place, and after 3 rounds of shoot-offs, there were still 5 of us tied for 3rd. At dusk, the shoot-off was called & In this instance I ran out of ammo and couldn't have continued the next day... when the shoot-off was completed. I bet all 7 of us would have been just as pleased to accept our tie for third... vs 4th.5th.6th.7th.or 8th! I also finished in sole possession of 1st place, but that took 3 shoot-offs to decide... And nothing will convince me that my competitor that day didn't just get tired, and say to heck with it! If there's a tie, be it by a pair, or by six, both or all six are named "x" place winners... Skip the places following and carry on with the celebrating... much more important, anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Whatever the answer is SASS HQ needs to get it published BEFORE the next SASS sanctioned match. Same goes for official SDQ penalties. Total of all possible misses plus all penalties (150 seconds has been posted a lot) doesn't work when you have shooters that shoot a stage in excess of 150 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Great idea Church Key. I was thinking along those same lines. But it does need to be standardized. Start with the last stage of the match (Stage 12 for a 12 stage match). If there is a tie there, then go to Stage 11. If still a tie, then Stage 10. Etc. I don't think there's ever been a case that would take the MD back even that far. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 IMO; accepting a tie as is and awarding all competitors the same seems to be the only fair thing to do. I am aware that some big matches award an additional prize to the overall winners of a free entry to the next level or similar match. I believe that practice should cease as it awards a prize with a monetary value and is contrary to one of the greater aspects of this game. We're not playing for money. Those prizes should only be available via raffle or other random drawing. If the match budget is too tight to allow for the additional awards, then keep a saw handy in case some shooters need to split one. Once the shooting is done and the scores are tallied, the match is over. To pick out a stage or stages either preordained or at random to break a tie would not be fair to either shooter. This would add an element of luck in to the equation. I personally would not be comfortable winning or losing the tie because of luck. Besides; one of the common complaints I'd heard or read about rank point scoring was that the final outcome was determined by individual stages rather than the match as a whole. Using an outcome of a stage(s) to break a tie would resurrect that argument. The shoot-off idea doesn't really work either since the contest was not about who can perform better in a one and done stage that likely does not even resemble any of the main match stages. All of the big matches I've been to have included some kind of 'Top Gun' shoot-off and I've noticed that very often the shooter that won the main match did not win the shoot-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I agree with Smokestack. You have two overall world champions. They have both earned it. The chances are very slim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 TIE- stage one is always the tie breaker. SDQ- all targets times 5 plus 30 seconds. Slow shooter who has greater time then SDQ, give him his time as he earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... Ding Ding Ding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: My thoughts exactly. A win is a win is a win. ..........Widder Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: Whatever the answer is SASS HQ needs to get it published BEFORE the next SASS sanctioned match. Same goes for official SDQ penalties. Total of all possible misses plus all penalties (150 seconds has been posted a lot) doesn't work when you have shooters that shoot a stage in excess of 150 seconds. Northeast Regional starts Thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 8 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: My thoughts exactly. A win is a win is a win. ..........Widder Yep, ya' wanted total time, ya' got it! Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 10 hours ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... Smokestack: Well Said. Awards should go to both shooters, and if one of them wants to know "What If", in the matter of saving time a simple one shot at the playing card to determine it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Bart Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 10 hours ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... 10 - Strongly Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 11 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: No, No, No! A tie should be broken by rank points Agree. It use to be the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Although I agree with Smokestack's thinking, I doubt that the idea will rest among major match committees due to $$. However since the event would be of such historical proportion, why would it not be worth the expense. (CAS gets so much recognition.) Now to the stage idea, not bad, whether a standardized stage one, five, or 12 is in place by SASS or MD before hand. I like this also but, as being talked about on TG wire, why not have this as 2nd option behind most stages won. The number of misses could be considered in a list of options also. My problem with the miss idea is that if one competitor had one miss and still tied a clean competitor then kind of hard to say which bested the other for the win. Personally, I have no problem with RS idea, but feel if we are going to do away with it then do away with it. Don't give shooters the option to say "well I beat this guy by RS". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 24 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said: Personally, I have no problem with RS idea, but feel if we are going to do away with it then do away with it. Don't give shooters the option to say "well I beat this guy by RS". Billy Boots: I agree with this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I took this snippet from last year's WV State Match score sheet. Assume that both shooters were in the same category (they weren't but could've been) 1T 1R 2T 2R 3T 3R 4T 4R 5T 5R 6T 6R 7T 7R 8T 8R 9T 9R 10T 10R TTIM TRK 39.30 44 26.92 15 29.71 13 30.84 13 19.07 5 24.21 4 31.15 10 25.12 7 25.05 14 24.16 7 275.53 132 28.97 16 26.69 14 27.14 7 32.06 16 19.80 7 38.01 39 28.09 4 26.67 10 23.01 7 25.09 12 275.53 132 Who do you think won? How should it be decided? Both had same rank points, same total time, and each beat the other in 5 out of 10 stages. I don't know what their miss/penalty count was as it wasn't posted. (I do know how many I had and how many Walker Colt didn't have) Let's assume they were both clean. The awards were plaques so I vote to go get the saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Why not first look at who won the most stages by total time? Then look at who had the least penalties. etc. Basing win on one stage makes no sense for a tie. Going to Rank points to break a tie assumes computer scores allow a club to do that after using total time for match scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 not to be the odd one out (and then I go and do it)... from the management of the match side how do you deal with the winnings IF there was just one plaque or belt buckle or Cadillac for whatever category or overall ties? It's easy splitting a million dollars in prize money (for the humor-impaired this is a joke so don't take it seriously) I did the trophies for several years and for some a trophy/plaque/whatever is appreciated and looked forward to. cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 The each get one of these and have to mail the buckle/plaque/Cadillac back and forth every 3 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 17 hours ago, Smokestack said: Why would a tie need to be broken? Assuming there were a tie, it seems to me both shooters earned their scores, why diminish one of them? Just order another damn buckle... I agree! The NFL has ties and I think Soccer does also. It would be a very very rare occurrence so what's the big deal??? In all the years I've been shooting I've never seen it happen once! I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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