Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 23 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: I agree! The NFL has ties and I think Soccer does also. It would be a very very rare occurrence so what's the big deal??? In all the years I've been shooting I've never seen it happen once! I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill! While there is in fact nothing wrong with leaving the tie on the books, there is a logistical issue with getting them their awards. If it is a tie for first place in a category, then there will probably be one first place buckle left over from an underpopulated category that could be given away and another plaque could be made. Same holds true for most Category Places that are awarded buckles. If, however, it is a Match Overall Champion, then that Buckle would need to be ordered as a one-of, taking a couple of months and costing a couple of hundred dollars and if it were a State, Regional, Divisional, National, or World Champion, then those buckles come from SASS and then SASS would need to have it made and sent to the "2nd Winner". (Is that an oxymoron?) As long as everyone is OK with sawing the awards in half, or drawing lots, rolling dice, etc to see who gets to take the award home, then there is no problem. My guess however, is that most of the folks who end up tied, will each want their awards and that does present a problem for the Match Director. Maybe we can all chip in and build a giant pile of unused awards and buckles from previous matches and just let them have their pick! Recycling at it's finest! The reality is that there needs to be a mechanism, officially defined in the rules, for doing tie breaks. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it is consistently applied across every match in every club, state, region, division, nation, etc. Otherwise we will just replace the "Rank Point vs Total Time" dead horse with the "How Do We Break A Tie" dead horse. Of course, maybe we already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 If RANK is used as a tie breaker, and its usage is based on a particular stage(s), one of the winners may have shot that particular stage on a warm, sunny afternoon while the other winner had to shoot that same stage during a morning rain shower. How can that be a reasonable tie breaker? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 19 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: If RANK is used as a tie breaker, and its usage is based on a particular stage(s), one of the winners may have shot that particular stage on a warm, sunny afternoon while the other winner had to shoot that same stage during a morning rain shower. How can that be a reasonable tie breaker? ..........Widder It can't, period, especially for us BP shooters. In my opinion, the tie breaker needs to have a basis in the scores that were posted during the match, or the tiebreak might as well be done by random draw. Everything else is just adding a new variable into the equation. Whatever is chosen, there are going be a couple of Regionals and two Divisionals over the next three months. I guess it's gonna be a heck of a test run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said: If RANK is used as a tie breaker, and its usage is based on a particular stage(s), one of the winners may have shot that particular stage on a warm, sunny afternoon while the other winner had to shoot that same stage during a morning rain shower. How can that be a reasonable tie breaker? ..........Widder That is why my 1st choice who won most stages based on total time. Then other factors if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Goodnight Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I prefer a clear cut winner. IMPO, it should, whenever possible, be settled on the field. Somethin' to chew on.... We all know ties are very rare so this would not come into play very often. If done right it wouldn't take very long to do either. The First method of breaking the tie would be a Head-to-Head Shoot Off. If that's not possible>>> The Second would be a Same Stage Shoot Off. If that's not possible>>> The Third would be a non-shooting type of Tie Breaker. Number of Stages Won by Time is the one I'm leaning toward at the moment. (Note: Maybe a Flow Chart to settle a tie similar to the one we use for contested rule calls.) A few observations of mine and some solutions based upon them.... At State and above level matches I think it would be workable, at least at the ones I've been to... 1. Every State and above shoot I've been to has the scores tabulated shortly after the Main Match has concluded. Usually within a couple of hours. 2. Every State and above shoot I've been to has some form of Top ## Shoot-Off the next day. Those people are always announced the night before. At that time you would also announce a "Tie Breaker" between X & Y. No other information need be conveyed as to what positions are in question. Even if it's a tie between 10th &11th Place. 3. Most of these Top ## are Head-to-Head Shoot-Offs. You're already set-up for it so use the same course of fire to break ties. From what I've seen it constitutes about 10 Minutes per pairing. The winner gets the top spot in question. (Note: MOST shooters have never had a chance to play the Head-to-Head Game and may relish the chance to get out there and have at it. I know I would.) 4. If there's no Head-to-Head set-up have a pre-written Tie Breaker Stage ready to go. Flip a Coin to see who goes First & Last. Fastest Time wins the top spot. 5. If one of the shooters doesn't show the one who did wins by default. 6. If there is no Shooting Method available then do it by the selected Non-Shooting Method. 7. At Club Annuals and Monthly Shoots. Leave it to the Home Club. That's the best way I can think of at the moment.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 One Champion, not two or more. Whether it be most stages won, Rank Point or some other method, it should be stated before the match and carried out asap. Loser takes second place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 What is the way used for solving ties in the Olympic games?, in Soccer game? in other sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 And y'all WANTED total time... but, now can't decide how to deal with an itty bitty, potential quandry it presents. H-e-double hockey sticks, even with RP there's been a precedent at the World Championships of SASS... In 1990 Paydirt and Great Dane were co-Champions that year. But, keep discussin' it... it's at least as entertaining as the complaints about RP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I like the Dewel wid Shotguns Ider. But back to the OP. WHO CARES IF THERE IS A TIE?? Dig a Pit and Mudd Wrestle for it for Pete's sake. I do agree wid Griff. Fair to better entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 This is certainly not a new issue. Many state championships have used total time for quite a while now. I am sure those match directors have handled it in the very minute chance a tie came up, which it likely hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Maybe the competitors who are tied should be consulted. They may be satisfied with the tie. They may want a shoot-off. Maybe they are comfortable with a coin flip, or a framed copy of the scoresheet. If they have shot that well, they deserve to be heard. If match directors want to keep their customers happy, maybe they should ask the customers at that particular match. Does everything have to be dictated from the top down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/18/2017 at 1:02 PM, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said: While there is in fact nothing wrong with leaving the tie on the books, there is a logistical issue with getting them their awards. If it is a tie for first place in a category, then there will probably be one first place buckle left over from an underpopulated category that could be given away and another plaque could be made. Same holds true for most Category Places that are awarded buckles. Hmmm... If it is a tie for Overall, wasn't just one (or two, one for man and one for lady) ordered? How likely is another individually engraved (or whatever they are) award likely to cost more than the two awards did? If, however, it is a Match Overall Champion, then that Buckle would need to be ordered as a one-of, taking a couple of months and costing a couple of hundred dollars and if it were a State, Regional, Divisional, National, or World Champion, then those buckles come from SASS and then SASS would need to have it made and sent to the "2nd Winner". (Is that an oxymoron?) PaleWolf mentioned the 2010 Orygun State match tie. He called Hipshot (WB member) and asked for advice. Hipshot said SASS would mail another award. As long as everyone is OK with sawing the awards in half, or drawing lots, rolling dice, etc to see who gets to take the award home, then there is no problem. My guess however, is that most of the folks who end up tied, will each want their awards and that does present a problem for the Match Director. Maybe we can all chip in and build a giant pile of unused awards and buckles from previous matches and just let them have their pick! Recycling at it's finest! <Rolleyes> The reality is that there needs to be a mechanism, officially defined in the rules, for doing tie breaks. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it is consistently applied across every match in every club, state, region, division, nation, etc. Otherwise we will just replace the "Rank Point vs Total Time" dead horse with the "How Do We Break A Tie" dead horse. Of course, maybe we already have. I agree it should be defined in the rules. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 How 'bout this? The shooters tied, (might even be more than two), each get 1 minute to explain why the OTHER person should get the award at the match. At the end of the time, the tied shooters make the final decision who gets the award at the match and who waits for it in the mail. The cowboy spirit of the game is alive and well in our champions and this would prove that to all. Artic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 40 minutes ago, Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 said: How 'bout this? The shooters tied, (might even be more than two), each get 1 minute to explain why the OTHER person should get the award at the match. At the end of the time, the tied shooters make the final decision who gets the award at the match and who waits for it in the mail. The cowboy spirit of the game is alive and well in our champions and this would prove that to all. Artic You forgot the smiley face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said: You forgot the smiley face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 In the extremely unlikely event that 2 people wind up with the exact same time at the end of a match, then the one with fewer misses wins the tie breaker. If it's still a tie after that and you don't want to simply declare a tie, fewest penalties breaks the tie. If it's still a tie after that, black powder beats smokeless. If it's still a tie after that, one handed shooting beats 2 handed shooting. If it's still a tie after that, flip a coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 45 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: In the extremely unlikely event that 2 people wind up with the exact same time at the end of a match, then the one with fewer misses wins the tie breaker. If it's still a tie after that and you don't want to simply declare a tie, fewest penalties breaks the tie. If it's still a tie after that, black powder beats smokeless. If it's still a tie after that, one handed shooting beats 2 handed shooting. If it's still a tie after that, flip a coin. If they are in different categories, then there wouldn't be a tie to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 48 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said: If they are in different categories, then there wouldn't be a tie to break. Yeah, but "overall" standing is done done without regard to category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Tom Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Why not break the tie by the total of Misses, Procedurals and Minor Safety. I've mentioned this on another feed, I looked at Winter Range 2016's data and found 6 ties nothing above 40 place, even with breading the tie with Misses, Procedurals and Minor Safeties do you think it's going to make a real difference if a shooter comes in 404 or 405? I also looked at EOT from this year and it had not ties so what can I say..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Let them shoot it off head to head in a 10-10-4 stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 7 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Yeah, but "overall" standing is done done without regard to category. Yeah, but; 1. With the number of categories and the disparity between them I don't think there should be an "overall" award. 2. If the tie is between the top 2 shooters in a large match, I doubt either one of them will be shooting BP or one-handed. (The reasoning behind #1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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