Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Grouchy Spike

Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

Recommended Posts

I have 1911s and I absolutely love shooting them. When I started in the cowboy game I bought pistols and rifle in 45 just so i could also participate in WB. So I bought the rig, a Model 12 and was off to the races but after one match I just didn't enjoy it as much as cowboy so I've never tried it again. (anyone need WB gear?) We try to host a WB match shot in combination with cowboy around 4 times a year at our home club and the target arrangement is set up for WB but I just enjoy cowboy more so that's where I'll stay.

btw: for anyone near Columbia, SC our July monthly will be a WB match and we have started to allow 38 cal rifles. Cowboy shooters are always welcome as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Procedural Pete said:

WB sounds fun. I have an 1897 shotgun. I  have A 1911 and a lever gun. But the 1911 and lever gun are not .45. I've spent so much money on guns and stuff for cowboy action I can't justify buying more guns for Wild Bunch. if I could use the guns I have I would love to try it.

Why not sell some of those guns you're not using, I bet you're not using some of them, and they're safe queens, and buy some WB guns.

I love WB just the way it is thank you. Originally I wasn't interested but once I had a go I thought this could be fun and it is. 

There are even some military matches like BAMM using a WW2 rifle and there is a 'combat match' that will be shot at EOT this year as part of the WB side matches.

The rules are just fine, it doesn't have to become another pistol discipline, it's got it's own rules and if you don't like 'em, then don't play.

It was always designed as a side match for CAS as far as I know, and that's fine, leave it like that.

Trouble is some are trying to make it a stand alone match and that's pretty difficult.

We shoot it here in OKC twice a month, and we make up some fun stages using dueling trees, and Texas stars etc, we don't want to make it cowboy with a 1911, so it's an in-between match. Come down and try it out.

Costume has been on the up too, with may shooters now in a type of military dress, or Rough Rider outfits and the ladies, well there are some good looking lolitas around,check out Kathouse Kelli's outfits.

Instead of complaining about, oh the rules are not to my liking, 5 rounds, 7 rounds, 45 cal I only have 38 cal etc,etc. how about being positive and trying to put your own spin on the match we have now and try to make work better and make it grow.:wub:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tried it a few times, wasn't real crazy about it plus no where to really shoot it except for side matches and I'd rather do long range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

The rules are just fine, it doesn't have to become another pistol discipline, it's got it's own rules and if you don't like 'em, then don't play.

See that's the kind of response that gets folks saying  - "OK we won't" and you end up with less and less shooters.  Treat shooters like customers and it grows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

See that's the kind of response that gets folks saying  - "OK we won't" and you end up with less and less shooters.  Treat shooters like customers and it grows.

Exactly right. If you want to expand the WB match attendance it seems like you'd want people there that shoot cowboy and might want to try WB. I've also been told that I can't use a Lightning rifle at WB matches. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I ever happy that asked the question!  Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the time you've spent to read and contribute.  Don't sweat the disagreements - it's helpful to gain other perspectives.  I posted this link on the WB forum so those folks can check in too.

 

I must break for the day and check the "biscuits", but please continue to post and cuss or discuss.  All comments are welcomed!

 

I'll be back.  Thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jackaroo,

 

The OP asked why more cowboy shooters do not shoot WB, and what could be done to get them to try it.  He has been given lots of good answers and constructive criticism.  It is obvious that the rules and equipment are not fine, and require some very serious changes to attract CB shooters to WB. 

 

The attitude of "here are the rules and equipment required, if you don't like it TOUGH" needs to disappear before it will be possible to attract more new shooters.  This is an entertainment business, and by not treating customers with respect and listening to their concerns and wishes is not the way to gain and keep new shooters.

 

The WB powers that be need to look back to the rules that were used by the clubs that started this, back before SASS took over and changed the rules, equipment, and attitude of the WB game. 

 

I shoot WB on occasion, but only at home or clubs where they still abide by the original spirit of the game, and offer more category and equipment options than are allowed by the exclusionists that run WB now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was shooting duelist after our regular five stages that morning which I also shot duelist.  I figure I shot 50 rounds of 38s that morning and 60 rounds of 45 acp loaded 200 from at 850 over two stages and it was time for me to put the guns up!   My pals were at the trailer cooking jambalaya and having a beer and it was calling me!   For me it was just too much in one hot day in Louisiana!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually prefer WB over CAS as it is far more difficult and unpredictable than a usual CAS match. It's easy to shoot clean matches in CAS (just slow down a bit), but almost impossible to do with WB, due to little targets set out a far distance. Love stoking the 97. And remember, what could possible go wrong using a 1911 and 97 in speed matches as they were state-of-the-art 100+ years ago?  I've never seen a <20 second stage in WB, while they happen all the time in CAS. Any malfunction with a 1911 can cause big time brain fades when remembering where you were/round count issues. Power factor's create recoil matters, and "no shotgun makeups" require a bit of aiming and heavy shells. The 6 rounds in a 97 issue is a smoke screen, as a $30 Wild Tom Body upgrade cures it. 

 

I agree that the .40 cal. rifle rule is a big issue. My local clubs (in MD, WV, and PA) have all changed to allowing <.40 cal. provided they make the power factor, e.g., 158 gr. at 1000 FPS. I sort of like the 5 round 1911 limit as it is much easier on my feeble mind to keep track of sequences. Perhaps a club could experiment with trying 7 and review the results and feedback. Finally, in my opinion, shooting a CAS match with WB rules is not WB; it's far too easy as the targets are too close. Also, WB is not a sport for those who are recoil sensitive or who have strength issues with racking 1911 slides. 

 

Church Key

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TJD, I understand where you're coming from, but changing too many rules I don't believe will attract more shooters,...well not in the way some folks are hoping.

There are other positive ways, maybe some incentives,as I mentioned in my first post, but only the negative comment was reacted on!

Allowing say 38 cal rifles just because some don't want to buy another will just make the game more toward cowboy with a 1911, and that's the last thing I think SASS had in mind, or WB shooters.

I would have to agree that maybe other gauge 97 shotguns could be allowed, that might bring some more shooters yes, and no lightnings are not allowed either.

If I remember the match was based on the movie the Wild Bunch, didn't see any lightnings there? Just like Yul, you can only use a WW2 time frame manufactured bolt action rifle for the BAMM match. Every game no matter what it is has a set of rules, if every game had the same rules it wouldn't be a different game.

We have to try and sell what we've got, maybe there are just not enough interested shooters in WB !........and it will never grow, maybe as a side match if it got too big it wouldn't be able to fit into some time frame main matches.?

 There has been a concept put forward by others about making it all 22 cal. Pistol, rifle and any cal pump shot gun. ?? No brass to pick up and more in the magazine.

I think they do something like that up at Whitewater in CO, they call it Mild Bunch.:D

We had our OK State WB match last weekend and we had 36 shooters, and included 3 WB Ambassadors from Texas, Florida & Canada. All commented that it wasn't a bad turn out considering they have seen stand alone State Matches in bigger states of only a third of that. Maybe it is our great facility, or the timing being a warm up for EOT I don't know. Maybe promoting matches better would help, but I'm not in favour of changing the rules to appease those who say they cannot shoot it because they don't have the equipment or would come if we did this and that, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but you can't go Nascar racing with your Chevy saloon parked in your garage.:D:D:wub:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You want more participation, but are not willing to accept suggestions or constructive criticism.  That is the biggest reason WB will never gain acceptance amongst CB shooters.  Those of us who are interested want the game we knew back, not the limited version that is being forced on us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shot Bullseye Pistol for 13 years prior to starting CAS and to me I have more fun with a revolver. I tried WB a couple of times but just didn't really care for it. I would love to try it with my S&W 625 in .45acp.

 

Randy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the 5" barrel rule in the 1911 or no bull barrel?  Never made sense to me. 

 

Totes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.  I am a COWBOY action shooter.  There's nothing cowboy about WB.

2.  I am a member of the Single Action Shooting Society.  There's nothing single action about a 1911.

3.  I am trying to emulate the time period 1866-1900.  I don't think the 1911s were around during that time period.

4.  I too dislike the Wild Bunch movie.

5.  I don't like trying to find the brass that is thrown around.

6.  In my area they tried implementing WB as part of the regular match inter mixing WB shooters in the same posse during the regular match. IMHO if folks want to shoot WB at a separate time more power to them but it really left a sour taste in my mouth after driving a couple of hours one-way to attend a cowboy match only to have WB thrown into the match.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

You want more participation, but are not willing to accept suggestions or constructive criticism.  That is the biggest reason WB will never gain acceptance amongst CB shooters.  Those of us who are interested want the game we knew back, not the limited version that is being forced on us.

Just the opposite, suggestions yes, criticism as well, what suggestions you got, bedsides wanting the game back as you knew it, or changing game rules that end up being like a similar discipline.

Please advise what that game was? I know of no other game that was played by cowboys till WB came along not all that long ago?

I am truly not aware of that game you're talking about, :mellow:please enlighten me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Just the opposite, suggestions yes, criticism as well, what suggestions you got, bedsides wanting the game back as you knew it, or changing game rules that end up being like a similar discipline.

Please advise what that game was? I know of no other game that was played by cowboys till WB came along not all that long ago?

I am truly not aware of that game you're talking about, :mellow:please enlighten me.

 

Here's an excellent example of "pre-WBAS" rules & regulations (OOWSS "Turn of the Century Shooting Society" rules were similar up until we started to incorporate many of the WBAS restrictions):

Sand Creek Raiders "Professionals" Rules

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the local clubs allow me to shoot my 1911 in .22 and call it Mild Bunch.  I have very small hands (children's glove size 7-8 year olds) and find it too difficult to shoot .45 1911s.  I'm not competing with anyone, I'm just having FUN. 

 

I think I saw some club recently was having a Mild Bunch match using all .22s.  Now that would be FUN.  Maybe more women would try it and like it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks PWD, after a very brief read I'm very happy with the WB rules as they are, much safer and more simple.

I'm leaving for EOT in the morning and am shooting WB and cowboy, and looking forward to both matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

I'm with Creeker as far as the rifle goes......not going to buy a .45 rifle, brass and reloading items. WB isn't offered around here much anyway.

 

I hear the rifle excuse alot though.......take the .45 rule away and they'll draw a larger crowd.

Yep take the rifle caliber rule away and allow tactical reloads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Thanks PWD, after a very brief read I'm very happy with the WB rules as they are, much safer and more simple.

I'm leaving for EOT in the morning and am shooting WB and cowboy, and looking forward to both matches.

 

Have fun & shoot straight!

 

FB_IMG_1480012732769.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly agree with the crazy 5 rounds in a mag comments, if you watch the movie, they use double action and single action pistols. I used to shoot WB as often as possible until I went to a state match. There the pistol and magazines were weighed, the rounds were chronographed and I watch one poor guy get disqualified as his rifle rounds were 15 fps too slow. Seriously? This was for a belt buckle, not a Cadillac. They said the rules were there to make sure WB did not not turn into what Cowboy shooting is. WB should be so lucky! Ever since then I have been soured on WB and stopped shooting it all together. I think better time and money would be spent with 3 gun shooting! I certainly see this as Cowboy shooting with a .45 auto regardless of what everyone says. If WB went away, I would shed not shed a tear. I have heard from many camp fire discussions that Wild Bunch is being held back from expanding to something great by the current WB Committee. My thought is, a tree that doesn't bend in the wind, it breaks. I believe WB is head the way of the Foo-Foo bird as they say.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive only shot it a couple of times.   I enjoyed it, not as much as I do CAS, but it was fun.    For me its hard to justify buying the extra equipment I need for it, since I only get to shoot it 3-4 times a year...and only a couple of stages then.   I do plan to buy a 1911 soon, mainly because I have always wanted one.  I still have my 45 cal rifle.   I would also need a shotgun since both of my model 12's are 16 ga.   (thats the only rule I dont fully understand)     

 

Hopefully within the next year I will be able to get my stuff together so I can play

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

TJD, I understand where you're coming from, but changing too many rules I don't believe will attract more shooters,...well not in the way some folks are hoping.

There are other positive ways, maybe some incentives,as I mentioned in my first post, but only the negative comment was reacted on!

Allowing say 38 cal rifles just because some don't want to buy another will just make the game more toward cowboy with a 1911, and that's the last thing I think SASS had in mind, or WB shooters.

I would have to agree that maybe other gauge 97 shotguns could be allowed, that might bring some more shooters yes, and no lightnings are not allowed either.

If I remember the match was based on the movie the Wild Bunch, didn't see any lightnings there? Just like Yul, you can only use a WW2 time frame manufactured bolt action rifle for the BAMM match. Every game no matter what it is has a set of rules, if every game had the same rules it wouldn't be a different game.

We have to try and sell what we've got, maybe there are just not enough interested shooters in WB !........and it will never grow, maybe as a side match if it got too big it wouldn't be able to fit into some time frame main matches.?

 There has been a concept put forward by others about making it all 22 cal. Pistol, rifle and any cal pump shot gun. ?? No brass to pick up and more in the magazine.

I think they do something like that up at Whitewater in CO, they call it Mild Bunch.:D

We had our OK State WB match last weekend and we had 36 shooters, and included 3 WB Ambassadors from Texas, Florida & Canada. All commented that it wasn't a bad turn out considering they have seen stand alone State Matches in bigger states of only a third of that. Maybe it is our great facility, or the timing being a warm up for EOT I don't know. Maybe promoting matches better would help, but I'm not in favour of changing the rules to appease those who say they cannot shoot it because they don't have the equipment or would come if we did this and that, sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but you can't go Nascar racing with your Chevy saloon parked in your garage.:D:D:wub:

 

 

I hear this reference to the movie all the time.  The 1911s (stars) were 9mm in the movie oops there goes the 45acp.

There was a luger po8. Colt new service 1917, s&w model 10 an enfield model 10, colt saa.  that makes a pretty diverse set and those were the handguns.

There was both a single and fouble barrel in there.

Least we forget a 1917 Browning water cooled machine gun. 

 

Sorry but this fall back to it was not in the movie is smoke screen, besides plenty of weapons that were in there forgotten about.

 

Let us just say the movie was more or less set before the twenties so most anything to the end ofb ww1 could have shown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Exactly right. If you want to expand the WB match attendance it seems like you'd want people there that shoot cowboy and might want to try WB. I've also been told that I can't use a Lightning rifle at WB matches. 

Yul,

You have been told wrong. It is any sass legal rifle in .40 or above. I have a beautiful Lightning that I shoot occasionally and I know shooters that use a Lightning.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I look forward to every state level large match that offers wild bunch.  It's a change of pace and I enjoy it.  While I may only get to shoot it 3-4 times a year I wish it was available more around me.  

I never liked the 1911 or 97 until I tried wild bunch.  Now I'm hooked.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've shot WB twice and had a blast!  My husband had the guns.  For me, shooting with nice folks is fun. Cowboy is my #1 game but WB is fun, too. I would be happy to loan my guns to anyone who wanted to play... and I think many other Cowboys probably would too... at least let folks try it out... my club shoots WB and Cowboy on same stages every other month - but with a WB Posse and a Cowboy Posse. Rifle caliber not enforced.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Brazos John, I offer apologies - I clean forgot about THSS because I've not made a match there, and it's a famous club rich in history.  It's a far reach for a one day trip from any location at which I might be, well east or north of Houston or well west of San Antonio,  kinda like flyover territory and we know what happened about that in November.  THSS may have created the near perfect game. What is target placement for WB in monthly matches - cowboy distance (close) or WB distances (further out).  5-round mags or more?  Do you have a set of match scenarios that you could share with me?

 

Here's the THSS Wild Bunch rules: http://www.thss.org/rules/thss-wild-bunch-rules/

 

You use the same targets as Cowboy Action Shooting. Typically it's 5 rounds for magazines, but I've seen them change it up to 7 every once in a while. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I love shooting the 1911 and 1873 I hate shooting a pump shotgun. I wore my arm out shooting it I had to get a band to wear around forearm to help.  If it was open to 1887 shotgun or Sxs shotguns I mite shoot it some in the future.   I actually shot it in the beginning and have mod 97 and mod 12 shotguns but prefer other shotguns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shot IPSC and IDPA for seven years before trying cowboy.  The 1911 became my go-to self defense pistol once I learned and was coached in it's most effective use.  WB is the opposite of the most effective use of the 1911 and teaches muscle memory of very poor techniques: shooting from condition three, 5 rounds per and shooting until dry.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no interest in shooting slide action guns,

My opinion is known and I will be spanked by the moderators if I again reveal my thoughys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have had an bonus WB stage at end of cowboy match before.  Then last fall we had a special fun match where you could shoot stages in any style ot category.  Some could get into it and some just couldn't get comfortable shooting exactly like they have always shot. 

 

We're talking about trying to set up a WB match on an alternate weekend and allow cowboy shooting too.  We'll loosen the WB rules to make it more accommodating for cowboy shooters to play WB. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shoot WB whenever I get a chance, which seems to be 4-5 times a year if I'm lucky.  The thing I dislike about it is having to pick up all that brass, shotgun shells, and magazines after each shooter.  20 pistol, 10 rifle, 6 shotgun, 4 magazines plus anything else they dropped or that fell off.  There's no solution to my problem but I figured that since we were complaining, I would get mine out there too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shot it twice many years ago when it was first introduced.. 

I Borrowed guns.... And Bought the ammo as I didn't have 45's..

Reasons I don't shoot this adventure??

 

I didn't like the 1911.. :blush:

I wasn't going to invest in equipment I don't like to operate..

I shoot Vaquero's..;)

 

I Don't reload 45's.. Not even ACP's.. :unsure:

I wasn't going to invest in reloading equipment for a caliber I didn't shoot..

I shoot 38's ;)

 

I don't like shooting a '97.. Too many problems with them that

I don't care to learn another repair adventure..

Folks say if ya shoot a '97 ya need 3..

one to shoot, one for backup, and one in the repair shop.:unsure:

I shoot a SxS...;)

 

I don't like shagging brass out of the 1911's..:blush:

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin:) 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Not for me.  If I'm looking for a match for my 1911, I go shoot IPSC and Steel Challenge.  WB seems more like an excuse to use a 1911 instead of a pair of revolvers.  

 

Just want to say it's good ta see Doc participating again:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Thanks PWD, after a very brief read I'm very happy with the WB rules as they are, much safer and more simple.

I'm leaving for EOT in the morning and am shooting WB and cowboy, and looking forward to both matches.

WB rules much safer-How so?<_< Because of less rounds fired from the gun?:rolleyes:

The folks that feel this way do not 'know' the 1911 or have ever trained with one.

Run the 1911 like JMB meant it to be run.

OLG

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.