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Grouchy Spike

Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

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Grouchy Spike,

 

What are the 'next steps' with this data collection?  Will there be an active effort to seek change or was this just an informal conversation to solidify the reasons for WB current state?

 

Totes

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47 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

Red Dead Redemption was pretty good.

 

I am hoping that HBO Westworld will help but SASS has to make an effort.  We might not have life like androids but come on down try them six guns

I know of quite a few folks that watched and enjoyed the new magnificent seven are are becoming interested in CAS. If Hollywood puts out a few more blockbuster level westerns, there could be a resurgence of interest.

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2 hours ago, Dusty Boddems said:

It's right there on the front says wild bunch shooting. Not really that hard to find. 

It is located on the SASS home page and then you have to click on the WB button then the WB forums can be clicked on.  Most folks go to the SASS forums page not the SASS home page.

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6 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

It is located on the SASS home page and then you have to click on the WB button then the WB forums can be clicked on.  Most folks go to the SASS forums page not the SASS home page.

Yup-;)

Wonder how long it will take to correct this? 

OLG

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1 minute ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

It is located on the SASS home page and then you have to click on the WB button then the WB forums can be clicked on.  Most folks go to the SASS forums page not the SASS home page.

Most folks need a little more powder in their mouse to reach the home page?  :lol:

OK, just shoot me with a mouse fart load! :unsure:

I also bookmark the SASS Forums link, but it's an easy connection in the URL window to delete all but "www.sassnet.com" and move to the home page.  Would not the interested user bookmark the  WB Forums link after the first visit?

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9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yup-;)

Wonder how long it will take to correct this? 

OLG

OLG I'm not understanding what is to be corrected.  Are you suggesting that there should be a direct link to WB forums on the SASS Home Page?  How would eliminating that extra click from Wild Bunch Action Shooting link to Wild Bunch Forums link  increase interest or participation in WB? Might be more convenient to navigate by one click, but I'm not seeing that minor inconvenience as a detriment to WBAS.  What did I miss here?  I've been reading that obstacles to WBAS participation are rifle caliber, shotgun gauge and model, 5-round magazines, etc related to extra expense; and the Rules.

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10 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

OLG I'm not understanding what is to be corrected.  Are you suggesting that there should be a direct link to WB forums on the SASS Home Page?  How would eliminating that extra click from Wild Bunch Action Shooting link to Wild Bunch Forums link  increase interest or participation in WB? Might be more convenient to navigate by one click, but I'm not seeing that minor inconvenience as a detriment to WBAS.  What did I miss here?  I've been reading that obstacles to WBAS participation are rifle caliber, shotgun gauge and model, 5-round magazines, etc related to extra expense; and the Rules.

 

I'm thinking that a lot of folks miss the link to the SASS HOME PAGE that used to be here on the forum main page...instead of having to "delete" the "/forums" from the address.

Depending on whether the user is on a desktop, laptop, notepad, smart (or stupid) phone, it makes it MUCH easier to get to the SASS HOME PAGE (and the WBAS, Handbooks, Affiliated Clubs, etc) links that are accessed from there.

 

JMHO.

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6 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

OLG I'm not understanding what is to be corrected.  Are you suggesting that there should be a direct link to WB forums on the SASS Home Page?  How would eliminating that extra click from Wild Bunch Action Shooting link to Wild Bunch Forums link  increase interest or participation in WB? Might be more convenient to navigate by one click, but I'm not seeing that minor inconvenience as a detriment to WBAS.  What did I miss here?  I've been reading that obstacles to WBAS participation are rifle caliber, shotgun gauge and model, 5-round magazines, etc related to extra expense; and the Rules.

PWB covered it better than I could. 

One click from the SASS forum page would add exposure, and build the traffic up on the WB forum I'll bet.

Most folks rarely see the 'home' page and just go to these forums.

;)

OLG

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PWB covered it better than I could. 

One click from the SASS forum page would add exposure, and build the traffic up on the WB forum I'll bet.

Most folks rarely see the 'home' page and just go to these forums.

;)

OLG

I understand now about the link. I'm not much computer literate. :wacko: Your point was more about 'feature' than 'correction'.  Sometimes I'm not much literate about composition either. :blush:

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

GS-I would rather have a loaded gun in my hands, than a 'puter mouse.......:lol:

OLG

OLG, me too!  I'm  realizing some bang-clang from this thread but there is no metallic sound.  Hopefully we  will hear more metal bang-clang from cowboys and cowgirls in a WBAS match! ^_^

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1 - Allow me to fully load my 1911..... 

2 - Allow me to Tactical load my pistol when changing magazines

3 - Allow me to shoot on the move with loaded cocked gun as long as the muzzle is downrange

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13 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

1 - Allow me to fully load my 1911..... 

2 - Allow me to Tactical load my pistol when changing magazines

3 - Allow me to shoot on the move with loaded cocked gun as long as the muzzle is downrange

Ace, Do you play WBAS now?  If not, would you play regularly if these rules were enacted?  Would this look more like a IPSC or similar game? Do you now play other steel games such as IPSC or similar?  Would #3 cause an insurance risk manager to increase the cost of insurance?

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4 hours ago, Totes Magoats said:

Grouchy Spike,

What are the 'next steps' with this data collection?  Will there be an active effort to seek change or was this just an informal conversation to solidify the reasons for WB current state?

Totes

Yo Totes!  Excellent question!  Your name was mentioned Saturday (in the best of circles ;), at a WBAS match ) as being a formidable competitor in WBAS.  Congratulations to you, and to the Texas Riviera Pistoleros at George West TX for hosting WB matches where a significant portion the members play WBAS. ^_^

 

I proposed the question because I see a market (SASS cowboys and cowgirls) that offers opportunity for further development.  SASS markets a product, which is WBAS.  SASS can’t create any demand, only opportunity. The SASS community can and does create the demand for that product.  The effort to increase the demand begins with an individual in a club, progresses to several members, then to the clubs officers and membership.  The club members that join WBAS experience an increase in Value of their club because they realize another Benefit at a Cost that is less than the Benefit. That’s a sales challenge!  Nothing more.  List and demonstrate the Benefits, make the Cost acceptable. SASS management is not needed to begin this effort, but any support would be helpful.

 

My post has several objectives, which are:

1) to stimulate discussion among the SASS community about WBAS

2) to stimulate interest in the community about WBAS

3) to increase participation in local WBAS matches and side matches

4) to increase participation in State WB matches

5) to increase participation in Texas State WB match

 

I observed with some concern the decrease in participation in the Texas State WB match from 2013 through 2017, and I’m wondering why that’s happening.  What are the obstacles to participation?  The Oklahoma State WB match is experiencing increasing participation, 37 this year with 6 from Texas.  Why does that match gain participants every year?

 

These are questions that only the community can answer.  My thread is an attempt to hear the answers, to offer the answers to local clubs, and to offer the answers to SASS and the WB committee for their use if any.  To hear the answers, the community must talk, and talk they do!  What an unusual number of responses and viewers! Over 5000 views! Did I cause a neuron or three to jump a synapse? Some synapses are going into HyperDrive! This community is interested in WBAS, otherwise they would skip over the thread.  What an awesome community!

How did the TRPs begin WBAS matches? SASS didn’t alight from a starship and anoint the members with 1911s and gunpowder! Someone had the idea, verbalized it. Others supported the effort, and a WBAS match was hosted.  Every member of the TRP that I’ve met is addicted to gunpowder, no matter from which weapon it’s used.  If it goes boom, all y’all are shooting it.  Awesome!

 

Texas Historical Shooting Society is successful in offering a match which if not pure WBAS seems to be pretty close. In any event, Brazos John submitted a model for successfully increasing the Value of the club to the members by offering another Benefit.  We can all learn from that. And before this thread was started I didn’t have a clue about what they were doing.  If that model was a closely guarded secret, Brazos John has ‘leaked’  it as a great contribution to the community!  Look at the information that this thread has offered to SASS and the community.

What Benefits do YOU receive from WBAS?  The Value must be positive otherwise you wouldn’t play the game.  Can you verbalize the Benefits?  Write them down on paper?  Those are the Benefits that must be shared with those who don’t play WBAS.   Haggle about Cost later and it’s not all monetary.  Post the Benefits on this thread so others can consider them, share them.  Remember that the Benefits are largely intangible unless you’ve won a spanking new 1911.

 

Obviously some members don’t see any Benefit to WBAS, or the Cost exceeds the Benefit, so there is no Value for them.  Maybe in the future there will be if WBAS is talked up, maybe some WBAS shooter puts a 1911 in the hand of the ‘unanoited’ and says ‘Shoot!”  Let’s anoint them!

 

I scored two hits so far, on 1) and 2) above.

 

I may not be able to determine whether I’ve scored a hit on 3)  but I might have an ‘edge’ hit there if other clubs do what the TRPs and THSSs have done.  That requires ONE individual to begin the effort, enlist some support, be flexible with requirements, and make it happen.  We must remember that the spider doesn’t quit the effort to spin a web if it wasn’t successful on the first try.  Not that I’m suggesting that we spin a ‘web’ to ensnare the ‘unanoited’ from the SASS community.  Of course not!  I refer you to Leather Lung as a character reference.  He’ll vouch for me.

 

The hits on 4) will be a slower shot and a slower hit, as the interest and participation in local matches and side matches must be nurtured become a part of the club events and to enable members to play in State and upper level matches, requiring some time.  We probably won’t ever hear the hit unless a WBAS shooter posts about it.

 

I’m hoping that 5) will be scored in November 4th and 5th at the 2017 Texas State WB match.

So Totes, will you plan the play in the 2017 Texas State WB Match in Cleburne? You would be among the top scores.  Dusty Boddams and Captain Sam Evans are tough to beat.  What about those other fast 1911s at the TRPs?  Will they play?  Hoss has a Lightning, and it qualifies for WBAS.

I’ve made hotel reservations at the La Quinta in Cleburne because of favorable experience there, and I’ll pay a premium for that facility.  Benefit minus Cost equals Value! 

I suggest that you’ll realize a Value from participation in the 2017 Texas State WB Match because of the Benefit of the new experience, the entertainment, your successful competition, and the social engagement with folks of similar persuasion.  There are several Okies who will ford the Red to enjoy similar Value.  Those are serious competitors headed south.  And they are serious BAMM competitors that join the Texas BAM shooters.  Have you acquired such equipment yet?  Hoss, Brush Creek Bill, and Mar-Lyn gave it a try at Comancheria Days 2017, and with minimal instruction (hold 6 o’clock) were banging away and clanging most if not all of those 16” targets with an unfamiliar rifle.  When TRP starts a BAM side match, I’m betting that those three will be in it!  When y’all clear the range for Cody Dixon, it’ll work for BAMM too.  What?  No BAM rifle yet? 

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14 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

1 - Allow me to fully load my 1911..... 

2 - Allow me to Tactical load my pistol when changing magazines

3 - Allow me to shoot on the move with loaded cocked gun as long as the muzzle is downrange

 

14 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

1 - Allow me to fully load my 1911..... 

2 - Allow me to Tactical load my pistol when changing magazines

3 - Allow me to shoot on the move with loaded cocked gun as long as the muzzle is downrange

Absolutely not!

If you want to do that, try IPSC, 3 gun, or some other discipline.

 

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15 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Ace, Do you play WBAS now?  If not, would you play regularly if these rules were enacted?  Would this look more like a IPSC or similar game? Do you now play other steel games such as IPSC or similar?  Would #3 cause an insurance risk manager to increase the cost of insurance?

If I may-

WBAS now, no- because of the conflict with my 40+ years of training and the muscle memory, VS WBAS rules for the 1911 operation.

Look like IPSC? No way-we would be way cooler. ;)

Play IPSC now. No, but have in the past(Class 'B' shooter w/my duty 1911).

Insurance concern-Other gun sports allow it. Can't be that big of a deal.

OLG

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2 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

 

Absolutely not!

If you want to do that, try IPSC, 3 gun, or some other discipline.

 

Changing the rules for shooting on the move would be a revolutionary change of the safety rules, and requiring the present WBAS players to learn a new game. It's tough enough to hit those static targets while standing still, much less on the move.  Seniors such as me could be dangerous if shooting on the move! :lol: That would eliminate some WBAS players including me. I don't see a net gain for this, but let the community talk!

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6 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

 

Absolutely not!

If you want to do that, try IPSC, 3 gun, or some other discipline.

 

The question was asked.....

I replied ........

I didn't think there was going to be an discussion about what would be allowed or not allowed.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

 

Absolutely not!

If you want to do that, try IPSC, 3 gun, or some other discipline.

 

What's the fear of fully load'd mag in the 1911?

What's the fear of a slide forward(tactical)reload?

What's the fear of moving with your finger off the trigger?

:unsure:

OLG

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3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What's the fear of fully load'd mag in the 1911?

What's the fear of a slide forward(tactical)reload?

What's the fear of moving with your finger off the trigger?

:unsure:

OLG

No fear of fully loaded mags, no fear of tactical reloads.  For me the fear was 'shooting on the move', not moving with finger off the trigger! I just had a vision of me moving while shooting, stumbling, and shooting myself:lol:

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3 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

No fear of fully loaded mags, no fear of tactical reloads.  For me the fear was 'shooting on the move', not moving with finger off the trigger! 

You ever heard of Western 3 Gun? 

 

 

OLG

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It's not about the fear LPG, it's about you and others changing the rules to suit those who want them changed so they can shoot what THEY want, at the expense of others.

I think you'll find a lot more seniors in our sport than those other pistol sports  you are trying to emulate.? 

And who says those rule changes will attract more shooters? It might be quite the opposite, and you may find existing WB shooters don't want that, and stop doing WB matches! 

Just to put my spin on that, if they are changed to those rules then I'd probably give it away? Our rules are safer, and they are quite adequate.

i see absolutely no advantage in changing anything, ...just the view from my saddle.

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Mr Spike or any other poster, long posts are not read...limit posts to no more then two paragraphs. Please, most of us don't have that much time left to try to decifer nine pages of stuff.

 

Angry Ned

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20 hours ago, Grouchy Spike said:

TJD, are you addressing the Open Category in local matches or matches at state and above?  Seems to me that nothing is stopping you in local matches from modifying the rifle requirement, either in an Open Category or by enforcing the PF for 357s as Church Key mentioned in the post above.

 

If somebody, in 2010, in the PTB put their foot in their mouth and said 'like it or or leave it' I'd be put off too.  If that was said like that, I'd hope that the speaker has had second thoughts and is ready to apologize if he didn't intend to be inconsiderate.   You do remember who said that?   Eventually if I wanted to enjoy a game of WB I'd be working on forgiveness and moving back to the game.  Forgiveness by the way is done for the offended, not the offender.  If frees the offended of the anger.  Why don't you contact the speaker and hash this out?

 

Can you not continue to play the game that existed before SASS established WB rules if you don't want to play WBAS?

 

The most valuable benefit to SASS is standardized rules - a SASS match in FL is the same as in CA.  Maybe there are some local  requirements necessitated by range features, etc but the SASS rules make it easy to transition from for instance North Zulch TX to Comfort TX to Cleburne TX and to have the proper equipment for every location.  I like that!

 

State and above,  Makes no sense to do things at the local level differently than what is allowed at state and above.  Doing so is only setting shooters up for a rude awakening when they find what they do at home is not allowed at state and above.

 

When someone cops a superior attitude with me, it is not forgotten.  I hold no anger about this, however I will not condone that attitude.  From the dealings I have had with some WB people that attitude still has not changed.  It should have set off all kinds of warnings in their minds when almost 3/4 of the people attending their meeting up and walked out!

 

There would be no problem of standardization if the open category was added, it would only cause good things to happen for WB.  It would show that the wishes of shooters were heard and acted upon.  I have nothing against WB, I still play occasionally, and RO for WB shooters when they come out and shoot at one of our monthly CAS matches.  We have no problem having WB categories and WB shooters mixed on posses with CAS shooters.

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13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You ever heard of Western 3 Gun? 

OLG

Yes, never saw it until you shared this video.  The shooter is not moving while shooting, is he?  He stops to shoot, moving between shots, rifle hammer is down on empty chamber while moving.  SG is staged with rounds in the chamber.  Moving downrange, shooting at right angles to directly downrange but the 3-sided berm facilitates that an also multiple stages simultaneously.  I've only played at one range so equipped, but my travel experience is very limited.

 

Looks like good fun!  Looks like 4-gun to me. A slightly different game from SASS.  I may investigate. 

 

Did the shooter earn a penalty with the AD on the SG?

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24 minutes ago, Angry Ned said:

Mr Spike or any other poster, long posts are not read...limit posts to no more then two paragraphs. Please, most of us don't have that much time left to try to decifer nine pages of stuff.

 

Angry Ned

Sufficiently chastised!  :)

 

P.S. I'm really Up the Creek if the quoted responder didn't read my post.  Hopefully Totes Magoats is not ADD or if he is, has it under enough control to ready my reply!  He's close enough to me geographically to chastise me verbally.

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Some improvements may make WB more interesting. Changing the way the game is played may lose some shooters to gain others for a net gain of zero.

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11 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

State and above,  Makes no sense to do things at the local level differently than what is allowed at state and above.  Doing so is only setting shooters up for a rude awakening when they find what they do at home is not allowed at state and above.

 

There would be no problem of standardization if the open category was added, it would only cause good things to happen for WB.  It would show that the wishes of shooters were heard and acted upon.  I have nothing against WB, I still play occasionally, and RO for WB shooters when they come out and shoot at one of our monthly CAS matches.  We have no problem having WB categories and WB shooters mixed on posses with CAS shooters.

TJD, I had not intended to suggest that you play a game differently and then play at State+ WB matches with any proficiency.  I intended to suggest that you play a game that members enjoy.  That might increase participation in local WB games, and THEN to State+ with proficiency.

 

I had the impression that you didn't play WB, good to hear that you do and that you support it.  Do y'all relax the weapon requirements at local matches?

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We have an open and a military category, those two make up the majority of the participants.  Very few shoot traditional or modern.  You keep saying to do things on the local level, that is all fine and well, however it does nothing to increase your participation at state and above.  The changes need to be made there, then you will attract more shooters.  I know shooters who will not shoot WB because of the lack of the open category.  They are not going to have to play two different WB games.  Give the people back what was taken away from them; you will be surprised how much WB will grow.

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47 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

It's not about the fear LPG, it's about you and others changing the rules to suit those who want them changed so they can shoot what THEY want, at the expense of others.

I think you'll find a lot more seniors in our sport than those other pistol sports  you are trying to emulate.? 

And who says those rule changes will attract more shooters? It might be quite the opposite, and you may find existing WB shooters don't want that, and stop doing WB matches! 

Just to put my spin on that, if they are changed to those rules then I'd probably give it away? Our rules are safer, and they are quite adequate.

i see absolutely no advantage in changing anything, ...just the view from my saddle.

Pretty much says it all, I guess.

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3 minutes ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

We have an open and a military category, those two make up the majority of the participants.  Very few shoot traditional or modern.  You keep saying to do things on the local level, that is all fine and well, however it does nothing to increase your participation at state and above.  The changes need to be made there, then you will attract more shooters.  I know shooters who will not shoot WB because of the lack of the open category.  They are not going to have to play two different WB games.  Give the people back what was taken away from them; you will be surprised how much WB will grow.

Crawl, walk, and then run!  Some of the reason for low participation at State+ matches is low participation at local matches. We must work on that diligently.  If the shooter wants to play at State+ with a burning desire, then a legal rifle might be acquired by borrowing, trading, or buying used if a new one is out of reach (and they are expensive, no doubt)  SASS folks seem to overcome most obstacles.  Sometimes reluctantly, maybe slowly, but eventually!  They are a persistent bunch of folks.

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49 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

It's not about the fear LPG, it's about you and others changing the rules to suit those who want them changed so they can shoot what THEY want, at the expense of others.

I think you'll find a lot more seniors in our sport than those other pistol sports  you are trying to emulate.? 

And who says those rule changes will attract more shooters? It might be quite the opposite, and you may find existing WB shooters don't want that, and stop doing WB matches! 

Just to put my spin on that, if they are changed to those rules then I'd probably give it away? Our rules are safer, and they are quite adequate.

i see absolutely no advantage in changing anything, ...just the view from my saddle.

 

1 minute ago, Yul Lose said:

Pretty much says it all, I guess.

Hold on, cowboys!  Don't take offense just because you disagree.  You've kept this entire thread positive for about 300 posts!

 

The big problem with email or forum communications is that it's difficult or impossible to include verbal and visual clues to put words into context.  If I said "up yours" in this forum, you'd be offended.  You would miss the grin on my face when I said this verbally, in person, and with some acquaintance or familiarity between us so that you'd know that I was joking.

 

I work at this problem but sometimes I'm overcome by it too.  We are NOT enemies, we are allies with a common goal - to enjoy this shooting sport, to share that enjoyment with others.  Stay calm, hang in there.  There is something to be learned from disagreements too.

 

If I'd have been thin-skinned at the constructive criticism of Angry Ned, I might have fired off a load of buckshot in his direction.  Hopefully he considered this reasonably concise and to the point.

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1 hour ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

It's not about the fear LPG, it's about you and others changing the rules to suit those who want them changed so they can shoot what THEY want, at the expense of others.

I think you'll find a lot more seniors in our sport than those other pistol sports  you are trying to emulate.? 

And who says those rule changes will attract more shooters? It might be quite the opposite, and you may find existing WB shooters don't want that, and stop doing WB matches! 

Just to put my spin on that, if they are changed to those rules then I'd probably give it away? Our rules are safer, and they are quite adequate.

i see absolutely no advantage in changing anything, ...just the view from my saddle.

 

19 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Pretty much says it all, I guess.

Attitudes that keep WB from growing, and keep pushing CAS shooters away!  Way to go guys, great that you are so understanding and of such help.

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2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The question was asked.....

I replied ........

I didn't think there was going to be an discussion about what would be allowed or not allowed.

 

Ace, I was attempting to validate your contribution using  my understanding of your comments. If your position is at a diagonal to mine, I'm looking for more information. I could be in left field, even likely to be in left field. If I've offended you, I apologize.  :blush:  Let me rephrase that -  I could be in right field, certainly in right field,  NEVER in left field!

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This whole thread seems to have lost focus.  Ideas were given and posters with ideas were prompty told to forget it (would have used different words but this is an all age forum), we aren't changing. Why continue?

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