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Grouchy Spike

Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

Why is the 16 gauge 1897 not allowed, Dusty? Every WB shooter that I've observed uses light loads so power can't be a factor if that's the argument.

Yul, honest to gosh I have no solid reasoning .........unless the committee thought to keep the playing field as level as possible to use only 97 in 12ga. And then when the 12 opened up again it was only 12ga. I use a lite 1 1/8 load in my 12 otherwise it just beats on me thru the day. I would like to see 16 gauge  model 12 and 97 legal. I own both and sometimes you can get a smoking deal on a great condition old gun because the caliber isn't main stream any more. Remember though the open class at a monthly you could these. Lots more fun shooting them than just looking at them! Dusty

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4000+ views?  I sense significant interest here, some bordering on passion!  Unfortunately WBAS can't satisfy all of the requirements of Pettifogger and Dirty Dan Dawkins, but if they could lower their standards for costumes, their otherwise discriminating tastes could be accomodated. They could admire  and feel the fashion and form of the Model 1911!

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32 minutes ago, Dusty Boddems said:

Yul, honest to gosh I have no solid reasoning .........unless the committee thought to keep the playing field as level as possible to use only 97 in 12ga. And then when the 12 opened up again it was only 12ga. I use a lite 1 1/8 load in my 12 otherwise it just beats on me thru the day. I would like to see 16 gauge  model 12 and 97 legal. I own both and sometimes you can get a smoking deal on a great condition old gun because the caliber isn't main stream any more. Remember though the open class at a monthly you could these. Lots more fun shooting them than just looking at them! Dusty

Thank you for your response. Now that I know that I can use my Lightning I'll give WB a try on the local level using my 16 gauge 97. No one ever has had an answer for me when I ask why 16 gauge is not allowed. Every factory load for a 16 gauge packs way more punch than most 12 gauge reloads that I see WB shooters use and they all give the same reasoning for the lighter 12 gauge loads that they use that you do. The 16 gauge is right up there with a 12 in recoil.

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Outstanding there, Yul Lose!!!

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After reading/following this thread, I've changed my mind about a few things. As background, I regularly shoot at five clubs, one WV, two each in MD and PA. Each state has one club shooting WB. I've been an RO since WB started, taking a class at the M/D Stampede many moons ago, taught by the Nawlin's Kid. The regular attendees for CAS/WB by state (my estimate) are: WV 20+/8, MD 50+/16, and PA 35+/12. Following are my suggested changes to improve participation:

 

1. 1911 = Max of 7 rounds, < 5" barrel OK,

2. Shotgun = Max of 5 rounds, and

3. Rifle = PF of 150+, no cal. requirements.

 

Reminder, opinions are like belly buttons; everyone has one.

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10 hours ago, Angry Ned said:

I believe wb matches should be shot separate from regular cas matches. The club I shot with in socal would allow several shooters to shoot their 1911s at the monthly matches and I didn't like it.

 

My 2 cents worth, Angry Ned

I don't like it either, and another thing that's beginning to grate me more and more every month is how lax costuming has become, whether it be WB or CAS. But CAS monthlys around here are only drawing maybe a dozen or so shooters when they used to draw forty on a nice weekend. Whether WB or CAS, the match directors don't want to lose even more shooters by telling them they can't wear their tennis shoes, ball caps, shoot a 9mm instead of a .45acp, shoot a .32 or .357 rifle instead of .40+, shoot a M19 Marlin or something other than a 12g '97 or Model 12, etc. If rules were enforced, we'd be seeing only half a dozen shooters, and probably even less at the once-a-month Wild Bunch match.

"I'd play golf if the hole were bigger. Why can't we have a 36" hole on the green?"
"Because those pesky rules say 4 1/4""

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14 minutes ago, Church Key, SASS # 33713 said:

After reading/following this thread, I've changed my mind about a few things. As background, I regularly shoot at five clubs, one WV, two each in MD and PA. Each state has one club shooting WB. I've been an RO since WB started, taking a class at the M/D Stampede many moons ago, taught by the Nawlin's Kid. The regular attendees for CAS/WB by state (my estimate) are: WV 20+/8, MD 50+/16, and PA 35+/12. Following are my suggested changes to improve participation:

 

1. 1911 = Max of 7 rounds, < 5" barrel OK,

2. Shotgun = Max of 5 rounds, and

3. Rifle = PF of 150+, no cal. requirements.

 

Reminder, opinions are like belly buttons; everyone has one.

Church Key, Thanks for your reply.  The WBAS participation at your clubs is about 33% of the CAS participation. To what do you attribute such success?  What' makes WBAS so attractive to cowboys and cowgirls?  Relaxed rules?  Do you predict that  7-round mags, shotgun gauge,  rifle caliber and PF would increase the participation?  By how many?

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I guess to me saying create a level playing field is a hang up with me.  To me that is like saying to create a level CAS shoot you can only use a 45LC New Vaquero in 5.5", a 1873 40+ caliber and only a double barrel shotgun.  3 gun you can only use a Glock 17 and load 10 rounds in it, an unmodified with only iron sights AR only in 223 and a semi-auto tubluar magazine shotgun with max 8 rounds. 

 

What was wrong with any safe functioning semi-automatic pistol or double action revolver or replica thereof from the period 1900 to end of WW1 (1918).  Any safe single, double, lever or pump shotgun from the same period or earlier.

 

Category A rifle:

Lever or slide action rifles

Category B rifle:

Box feed rife such as Winchester 1905 in 32 or 35WSL or Thompson. 

 

If you wanted you could split revolver from semi-auto. 

 

Yes it adds more categories but then to me it covers a lot more chance to catch people. 

 

I have hauled me semi-auto Thompson to a 3 gun when they had pistol carbine shoots (and to a defensive pistol when they also had a pistol carbine addition).  Is it big and blucky - yep.  Is it anachronistic as heck?  Yep.  Did everyone there including me just love seeing the thing shoot and its distinctive chuff?  YEP!  (Can I try please? Got that a lot). 

 

Has the local WB allowed me shoot it. Yep! 

 

To me FUN is a very high VALUE item and costs and time tend to go to lower levels.

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LV, I've got a Thompson also yes it's big! I have taken mine to the local combat matches. I also have soumi and folks have no idea what is but they like it. I've shot both on stages at WB matches actually used them in the stage and let the whole posse shoot the big old clunkers. They all were smiling when done! 

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Been looking at this post for a bit, but been rather busy and haven't had time to comment.  So here is my two cents worth. I have only shot at a few times. I have enjoyed it. Some of the people I have asked to shoot it with me shoot .38 in there main match cowboy guns. They don't want to purchase a new rifle and or shotgun. My thoughts would be a major and minor and divide it down from there. You could go up to 1918 era firearms and call it something else too. Everyone I have running into in SASS seem to be rather smart, I am sure a really cool name could be invented. Steam punk 3 gun has a nice ring!  Anyway my point is ( since you were wanting feedback) a major and minor with a few breakdowns from there to include what people already have with increase your participation. I would even use a double barrel. Don't exclude people, try to accommodate, WB is only gonna recognize somethings, but at the club level make it easier for people to burn some powder!  One last thing, correct me if I am wrong but I thought back in the day the shotgun shells were just a fuzz shorter and a 97 would hold 6?

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Grouchy Spike Quote -  "Church Key, Thanks for your reply.  The WBAS participation at your clubs is about 33% of the CAS participation. To what do you attribute such success?  What' makes WBAS so attractive to cowboys and cowgirls?  Relaxed rules?  Do you predict that  7-round mags, shotgun gauge,  rifle caliber and PF would increase the participation?  By how many?"

 

The biggest complaint I've noticed is the .40 Cal. or greater rifle requirement with a few grumbles about the 5" pistol requirement. Six in a shotgun is an argument by a few diehards, but not a showstopper. I personally like WB, but it's difficult to get new participants, they just drift in one at a time. The Thurmont Rangers (Home of the M/D Stampede) has the best turnout and strictly follows the WB rules as far as target size/placement (small/far) and rifle power factor (chrony occasionally), now allowing .357 158 gr. @ 150 power factor. We have a core group that shoot at most local matches. Women shooters are sparse because of the 1911 slide racking; most think its too difficult. Another matter is squeezing in matches with established disciplines such as CAS, IDPA, and 3-Gun.  Plus the ever difficult "Who is going to run the matches." I believe the latter is probably the biggest factor.

 

Church Key

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Dusty, all you need is the open category.  That would allow the use of the guns shooters have, and would not have any effect on the two categories you have now.  This was how things were done prior to the take over by the WB RC.  Many have asked members of the WB RC to allow the open category, all of us have been told "if you don't like how we do things, though, go play another game".  This is the poor attitude that has turned off many CAS shooters to WBAS. 

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1 hour ago, Church Key, SASS # 33713 said:

The Thurmont Rangers (Home of the M/D Stampede) has the best turnout and strictly follows the WB rules as far as target size/placement (small/far) and rifle power factor (chrony occasionally), now allowing .357 158 gr. @ 150 power factor. Plus the ever difficult "Who is going to run the matches." I believe the latter is probably the biggest factor.

Flexibility in action - .357 rifles!  Finding the leadership is admittedly difficult and all of us have that challenge.  Those that like to shoot it must run it, otherwise matches become few and interest wanes.  All of y'all do nice work in the midst of other shooting sports competition. Your customers (participants struggle with those choices too).  BTW, All of y'all is plural!

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1 hour ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

Dusty, all you need is the open category.  That would allow the use of the guns shooters have, and would not have any effect on the two categories you have now.  This was how things were done prior to the take over by the WB RC.  Many have asked members of the WB RC to allow the open category, all of us have been told "if you don't like how we do things, though, go play another game".  This is the poor attitude that has turned off many CAS shooters to WBAS. 

TJD, are you addressing the Open Category in local matches or matches at state and above?  Seems to me that nothing is stopping you in local matches from modifying the rifle requirement, either in an Open Category or by enforcing the PF for 357s as Church Key mentioned in the post above.

 

If somebody, in 2010, in the PTB put their foot in their mouth and said 'like it or or leave it' I'd be put off too.  If that was said like that, I'd hope that the speaker has had second thoughts and is ready to apologize if he didn't intend to be inconsiderate.   You do remember who said that?   Eventually if I wanted to enjoy a game of WB I'd be working on forgiveness and moving back to the game.  Forgiveness by the way is done for the offended, not the offender.  If frees the offended of the anger.  Why don't you contact the speaker and hash this out?

 

Can you not continue to play the game that existed before SASS established WB rules if you don't want to play WBAS?

 

The most valuable benefit to SASS is standardized rules - a SASS match in FL is the same as in CA.  Maybe there are some local  requirements necessitated by range features, etc but the SASS rules make it easy to transition from for instance North Zulch TX to Comfort TX to Cleburne TX and to have the proper equipment for every location.  I like that!

 

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Since others have put out their suggestions, here is mine.  I'll break them into easy changes and then sweeping changes.

 

Easy changes:

*Add 1887 shotguns, add 16ga shotguns.

*Reduce the shotguns to 5 rounds.  

*Drop the 40+ caliber requirement and just go by PF.

 

Sweeping changes:

*Add a Major & Minor class

*Maybe change handgun to 6 rounds to allow revolvers & autoloader to be on somewhat equal footing.

*Allow any period handgun, auto loader or DA revolver.

*Allow any period rifle, auto loader, lever, or slide action.

 

 

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A second item that turned some folks off to WB was that they with their club's permission were using approved WB guns and gear and shooting their local monthly CAS match using a WB RO and WB rules to keep them "safe the CAS targets and scenarios.  These clubs had been doing this for years before WB started using somewhat more relaxed rules.   These folks were doing it for WB practice only and were not in the running for any monthly awards.  Somehow at least 2 clubs I know of,  WB leader(s) contacted the clubs and insisted this had to stop.  The WB leaders indicated that only a pure WB monthly match could be shot with WB weapons and not at a CAS match.  That further frustrated folks and several hung up their WB guns and ammo.  I was not aware of any WB monthly matches so a shooter could practice under somewhat competition conditions in these two states.

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First the rock island 1911 that was setup for WBA she when it started was put some place safe and I think I recall were it is but do to several factors I'm not able to check.   So it's misplaced in my current inventory status. It is what it is. Yes I do not like pump shotguns even through I own several both original 1897 and mod 12, mossberg 600at, fan police Tactical based on the win 1300, I prefer to shoot 1887 and sxs sgs over the pump guns.  The rifle isn't a problem since I have one in a legal caliber, the power factor is what it is and I have not been to the WBA since forum in close to a year or more but imo it would be nice to publish loads from the various different powders used by cas shooters plus was shooters that will make the PO at most if not all matches and use random chronographing as required if you are still chronographing each and every shooter hopefully before the main match so they're no problems with shooters being died for ammo.  I have the two 1911s that don't meet the specs foe sass was and I didn't buy the for that the ruger is the commander sized version and my Kimber. Has packmire grips and two night sights.

 

as far clubs go I find it to much trouble to shoot locally anymore since both sass club are out of time with over a hour to two hours away.  I. Mainly go to annual event now.

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7 minutes ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

Somehow at least 2 clubs I know of,  WB leader(s) contacted the clubs and insisted this had to stop.  The WB leaders indicated that only a pure WB monthly match could be shot with WB weapons and not at a CAS match.

Wow!  If the name "Wild Bunch" is protected by a copyright or trademark, then SASS would have a say in the matter.  A match name change by the local club might be in order so that the copyright is not infringed upon.

 

Maybe it's time to have the WB Leaders chime in here. 

 

Does anybody else have first-hand knowledge of this communication?

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13 minutes ago, Blackey Cole said:

as far clubs go I find it to much trouble to shoot locally anymore since both sass club are out of time with over a hour to two hours away.  I. Mainly go to annual event now.

Ok, I understand that your proposed changes would not encourage YOU to participate in more monthly and local matches, but  you meet the requirements for the annual event.  Thanks for commenting clarifying.  Your presence will be missed!

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32 minutes ago, Brimstone Bill Willson said:

Since others have put out their suggestions, here is mine.  I'll break them into easy changes and then sweeping changes.

 

Easy changes:

*Add 1887 shotguns, add 16ga shotguns.

*Reduce the shotguns to 5 rounds.  

*Drop the 40+ caliber requirement and just go by PF.

 

BBW, if the 1887 SG was good enough for Schwartzenegger, it is good enough for me!:wacko:  Thanks for comments.  You play WBAS?  Or would play if the easy changes were made?

 

I designed a 5-stage WBAS match once with 7-round magazines.  There was many vibes in the air as we progressed through the match!  All directed at me.  Don't think that I'll ever see any more shooters sign up for one of those.  Too much shooting, and we are accustomed to counting to five, not seven.  That could be overcome with repetition but it would likely cornfusticate many of us.  I'd face a vigilante justice if I so much as suggested 7-round mags.  Gleeful justice.

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39 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

BBW, if the 1887 SG was good enough for Schwartzenegger, it is good enough for me!:wacko:  Thanks for comments.  You play WBAS?  Or would play if the easy changes were made?

 

I designed a 5-stage WBAS match once with 7-round magazines.  There was many vibes in the air as we progressed through the match!  All directed at me.  Don't think that I'll ever see any more shooters sign up for one of those.  Too much shooting, and we are accustomed to counting to five, not seven.  That could be overcome with repetition but it would likely cornfusticate many of us.  I'd face a vigilante justice if I so much as suggested 7-round mags.  Gleeful justice.

 

Please see my earlier comment regarding loading seven in the 1911.

Two to three 7-round magazine changes = 21/28 rounds vs 3 to 5 mag changes with 5 rounds = 20/30 rounds...about the same amount of shooting!

The "cornfusion" in transitioning from 5 rounds to 7 rounds (or multiples thereof) can be addressed with more variable target engagements...instead of those based on 5-10 round sequences as in CAS.

IMO..the majority of competitors playing either game are quite capable of adapting to such a change with a minimal "learning curve"; contrary to the primary reason to NOT change.

Some of us do that on a regular basis due to the difference in our EDC firearms vs those used strictly for FUN competition (e.g. semi-auto pistol or DA revolver vs SA hogleg)

 

FWIW - I understand that WBAS had recently suggested that monthly WB matches try seven rounds in the mags on a "trial basis" ... have not heard any results/problems (other than the quoted statement above).

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7 hours ago, Dusty Boddems said:

 

OLG, Nice spin on your part.  You either didn't read my post or read between some lines that didn't exist and closed me out by saying I'm not open to your concerns. Please reread what I said! I am saying we are all in the same pool and all CAS shooters. My point was its easy to talk negative about "them" whoever they are.  If you read my earlier post it explained our open class at our monthly shoots . We want folks to use this to try WB without spending money on a try. Remember the model 12 was no way no how. Somebody listened. 

 

No spin on my part-Facts can be stubborn things tho.........^_^

If WBAS RC really wants to bring in more shooters. Have an 'open' class, and let folks load 7 rounds in the 1911. Plus allow us to do tactical reloads, like done in the real world and every other sport that uses 1911 type pistols.

Allow 38 caliber rifles and 87 lever SG. Also, remove the 12ga only restriction.

You have nothing at all to loose in trying this, and everything to gain. -Ball is in your court.-_-

OLG

 

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I'd love to shoot WB...would love to have a reason to byy a 1911.

BUT I don't have the 40+ caliber rilfe or a '97...so I need to 'start over' - all new guns, leather, dies and components..really? Not sure I want to make that kind of commitment when I can invest less and shoot something else and have fun too.

We had some folks inquire if we'd do a WB match..if you wanna run it we'll do it. I offered anyone to shoot WB guns in a regular match, separate category, not one taker.

I'm sure if I looked I could find WBAS matches, but I've only heard of one club that runs them on the 5th weekend of a summer month when there is a 5th weekend..so not often. Certainly not often enough for me to invest in a whole new set of guns.

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9 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

No spin on my part-Facts can be stubborn things tho.........^_^

If WBAS RC really wants to bring in more shooters. Have an 'open' class, and let folks load 7 rounds in the 1911. Plus allow us to do tactical reloads, like done in the real world and every other sport that uses 1911 type pistols.

Allow 38 caliber rifles and 87 lever SG. Also, remove the 12ga only restriction.

You have nothing at all to loose in trying this, and everything to gain. -Ball is in your court.-_-

OLG

 

That's great Lumpy! I assume that you are going to talk your match director about an open class and get started on establishing this open class in your match. That's what we did with our open class but it deals mostly with different 1911's,38 rifles and different shotguns. I think that's at a local level is where we learn and where change progresses. So keep us posted as you begin this and tell us how these changes worked out. Are you going to implement all your ideas at one time or are you going introduce new things over the course of a year or? While the enthusiasm is high and your putting this together I really think you should offer a demo or a school whatever you would like to call it of course and teach proper protocol for tactical reloads, how to move with the slide forward,how not to crowd cover and maybe some live fire drills with 7 rounds just to get folks tuned up and used to seven rounds. Do you think you are going to chrono the 38 rifle shooters at a monthly?  A suggestion would be to just set the chrono up for a few months and let folks shoot over it and loads could be adjusted from there. I'm glad that your being part of the solution! What we need are more experienced shooters like yourself that will step up and volunteer to run a match and mentor inexperienced shooters into the game of wild bunch. Please keep us posted on your progress. Best of luck , Dusty Boddams

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If WB really wanted to interest SASS members to shoot WB matches, it (or they) would add a link to the WB forums to the SASS forums list.  I do not expect this to happen as WB insists on being totally removed from anything CAS related.  That makes no sense since the base for WB to grow comes from CAS shooters.

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All these comments seem to reflect that interest in WB remains pretty high.  Everybody seems to have his or her own theory about the current state of WB shooting.  Mine is really simple, more matches.  In the KC area only one club shoots WB at all and that is every 5th Saturday (except when it conflicts with something else.)  At best that means 4 times a year, maybe.  I don't know if the clubs in Ft. Lauderdale or Okeechobee shoot WB but I have never seen anything on the calendar so I suspect not.  It is really hard to play a game when nobody else is playing.  

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Never seen a crono at a SASS match in my life. This includes regional and state.

'We' have pushed this 'other-gun' agenda for years-it fell on deaf ears. Many folks walked away and haven't return'd to WB.

It's the WBAS RC that needs to lead this charge......

OLG

 

 

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15 hours ago, Tracker Jack Daniels, 58780 said:

Dusty, all you need is the open category.  That would allow the use of the guns shooters have, and would not have any effect on the two categories you have now.  This was how things were done prior to the take over by the WB RC.  Many have asked members of the WB RC to allow the open category, all of us have been told "if you don't like how we do things, though, go play another game".  This is the poor attitude that has turned off many CAS shooters to WBAS. 

Why not just go back to pre-WBAS RC take over, with their 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude? -_-

Best way to fix an issue-Is to remove the problem that started it. 

OLG

 

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There is little interest in WB in my area. One local club shoots monthly and there are usually around 5 shooters. I have the guns just no interest, not my thing. My observation is most of the WB shooters are retired guys and those of us that are still working do not have time to play two games. 

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1 hour ago, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

If WB really wanted to interest SASS members to shoot WB matches, it (or they) would add a link to the WB forums to the SASS forums list.  I do not expect this to happen as WB insists on being totally removed from anything CAS related.  That makes no sense since the base for WB to grow comes from CAS shooters.

It's right there on the front says wild bunch shooting. Not really that hard to find. 

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1 hour ago, Bart Solo said:

All these comments seem to reflect that interest in WB remains pretty high.  Everybody seems to have his or her own theory about the current state of WB shooting.  Mine is really simple, more matches.  In the KC area only one club shoots WB at all and that is every 5th Saturday (except when it conflicts with something else.)  At best that means 4 times a year, maybe.  I don't know if the clubs in Ft. Lauderdale or Okeechobee shoot WB but I have never seen anything on the calendar so I suspect not.  It is really hard to play a game when nobody else is playing.  

Bart, I think sassy Teton lady is the WB ambassador for that area. I would think she would know or somebody here on the wire. You are right. The more wild bunch offered at monthly matches the more it will be shot.

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I shoot it occasionally at the local lever because they bend the rules a bit to allow things like me using an 87 instead of a 97. I would enjoy it even more if I could shoot the match gunfighter. Start with two pistols, one a 1911 and the other my colt saa. After five from the wheel gun, holster it and load the needed magazines to finish the stage with the 1911. Sounds like a lot of fun there. I also don't get the use of only 5 rounds in the mag

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There seem to be three types of responses to this thread

 

1.  Not intersted in Wild Bunch and never will be.

A legitimate response.  But these folks are sorta be defintion not the people that we should be looking too for ideas on how to make WB "better" because, well, they are not interested.

 

2.  Wild Bunch is fine the way it is, leave it alone.

Another legitimate response.   They have an "it ain't broke, don't fix it" outlook.  I appreciate this way of looking at things.   But the whole premise of the original request was "How can WB be changed to make it more attractive to more shooters?"  That kinda put these folks outside of the group whom to ask about making it "better" as well.

 

3.  Wild Bunch needs to be changed.

Most folks seemt to feel that something needs to be done.  Of these people there are two basic types:

 

A.  Some minimal tweaks would make it more attractive.

The most common ones are allowing any SASS Legal Main Match Rifle, increase the round count in the 1911 to 7 and make the round count in the 97 5 instead of 6.  Not everyone in category A advocates for all 3.  But they are the most commonly voiced minor tweaks.

 

B.  Go back to the way Wild Bunch was before the SASS rules were created.  Basically allow any gun that existed prior to 1918 (or 1921 in some cases) in safe working condition.  It can incorporate all the ideas of A, but will often not include the round count change for the 1911 so that autos and DA revolvers can compete on an even level.   Variations include allowing for 2 pistols, and perhaps rifle caliber rifles.  

 

3B seems to be the most common response, and I'll admit it's where I stand on the issue.   I'll still do WB "as is" if it happens to be a side match at a large event I'll be at anyway, but as a standalone I am unlikely to seek one out.   But a 3B match I would seek out if they existed.  Heck, back when 3B was the norm, I obtained several guns to use in Wild Bunch, only to see them be dissallowed by the offical rules.

 

 

I don't know if we'll ever truly be able to get back to a 3B type event, except for at places that have been doing it since before the SASS rules were created and never changed.   3A seems to be the most likely thing to happen, but to be honest, I don't see it happening.   As interesting as this thread has been, I seriously doubt that any of the proposed ideas will ever be implemented.  :(

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, VICIOUS, SASS#8014 said:

HI, we need a good computer game to get younger people interested.

Red Dead Redemption was pretty good.

 

I am hoping that HBO Westworld will help but SASS has to make an effort.  We might not have life like androids but come on down try them six guns

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