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Grouchy Spike

Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

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I own the guns and have the skills.  But I cannot shoot Wild Bunch and CAS a the same time at our regular monthly match. So WB gets zero practice time. Not retired.  Have a "day job". 

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1 hour ago, Buckshot Dobbs said:

Main reason I do not shoot WB is that it is not offered anywhere near me. WB is shot once a year that I know of in my state at a range, almost a 3 hour drive for me. That shoot is the state championship for WB, and they shoot the second half of that match on Sunday, which I prefer not to shoot on Sundays. I have all the equipment so I would shoot it, if'n it were available, but it aint.

 

BD

 

That scarcity of WB matches makes it difficult to shoot WB matches!  Would your club allow you to shoot Cowboy 1911 (two mags of 1911 instead of two sixguns) or allow you to shoot full WB (say 4 mags and a stoked pump) during a CAS match.  Some clubs are bothered by that, perhaps because it distorts the fantasy of playing cowboy and that's understandable. No argument there. Other clubs aren't bothered by it.

 

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Too much shooting of the 45 auto.  I enjoy two magazines per stage but shooting six per stage had me flinching after stage two and I went back to the trailer and had a beer and Bar-B-Q, after all the guns were put up, of course.

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Howdy, Totes,

I remember that you did quite well at Trailhead this year.

Come visit us again, this Sunday, if you can, and bring what you got. See my long-winded reply above.

Brazos John

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One club in Orlando had a WB match that was basically an open. Took my 1911, 97 and a semi auto Thompson........had a blast. BTW, the Thompson was slower than the lever guns due to the closed bolt on the semi's and the weight. Still a helleva lot of fun though.

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1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

I don't own a 1911 and all of my 97's are 16 gauge. WB just never appealed to me either. At the Escondido Bandidos cowboy matches nearly every month there will be a WB shooter shooting the match with us and no one seems to mind, they call it Pike category and they are only shooting against themselves or another WBer if one shows up, but when on a fifth Sunday they hold a WB match us cowboy shooters aren't allowed to shoot their match cowboy style, I've never understood that. It seems to me if you shoot the cowboy match WB style you shouldn't mind letting cowboys shoot your WB match.

What happened to 'turn about is fair play'?  :o Are the targets set further out as is customary for WB matches?   In the occasional WB match at the home club, the cowboys play too and burn up the stage while the WB shooters are throwing empty brass around for another several seconds. Targets are not set back at WB distances.  The cowboys usually have fewer weapons problems and ammo problems.  At the last WB match, by the last stage, all of the 97s but two were having problems and numerous 1911s had some burps.  That was so bad that it was laughable, no point in crying. Misery loved company. That WB match was won by the shooter with the fewest problems, not necessarily the fastest gun.

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1 hour ago, Mack Hacker, #60477 said:

I didn't even like the movie.  Never really had a desire to own a 1911. Neither were part of my growing up process like Colts, Double barrel shotguns and lever action rifles.  The only movie from that period that  I liked was The Professionals. I still think it was only made because Lee Marvin wanted to show the world what the Magnificent Seven could have been with a believable cast

Understandable - different tastes make the world go around!  I haven't heard of The Professionals, will look for it. Thanks for the reply.

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I think one of the problems is, after you have spent $5,000+ on cowboy guns, it's kind of hard to spend another $2,500 on Wild Bunch guns and leather.  It takes two more sets of dies for the press and two more sizes of ammo to load.   It's a side match that isn't offered except for State and above around here.  Several clubs have tried to have monthly Wild Bunch matches but they were not well attended.  I shoot Wild Bunch and enjoy it but it was a learning curve getting lead ammo to feed in a 1911.  I agree with Grouchy Spike.  The one with the fewest problems, wins.

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24 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

One club in Orlando had a WB match that was basically an open. Took my 1911, 97 and a semi auto Thompson........had a blast. BTW, the Thompson was slower than the lever guns due to the closed bolt on the semi's and the weight. Still a helleva lot of fun though.

That sounds like a match hosted annually by a local club - the Miami Vice Match.  If the weapon existed during that era, it was allowed.  This match is a hoot to shoot!  All kinds of weapons appear.  One shooter brought his fully auto Uzi, and while he had the most "P"s and misses he had the most fun.  While not Wild Bunch, it was WILD!  And the cowboys can shoot CAS within that match, so nobody is excluded.  Hmmm, that sounds like the PC mantra so often quoted - inclusiveness.  That match is inclusive!  Slap me with a rawhide strap for mentioning that.

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1 hour ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

WOW....was that Grouchy I just saw....594199f74b890_YosemiteSam-BiscuitsABurnin-RESIZED.jpg.d4aeb9910ab969bd2c6a38c9fbd03f34.jpg

Ah my eyes are crying and my side is hurting from laughing so much!  Great humor!  MORE!

 

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Once upon a time, before the SASS approved Wild Bunch Rules were created, you would see people shooting WB not just with a 1911, but perhaps also Lugers, Broomhandles, or any of a plethora of early autoloading pistols.  Or you would see a pair of 1917's, or Webley's or any other of plethora of early DA revolvers.  You could use 2 pistols, or 1 with needed reloads.  Rifles were often allowed to be chambered for "rifle calibers" and if your rifle didn't hold the needed 10 rounds you could either reload or use 2 rifles.  Semi-auto rifles in pistol calibers were also just fine.   The basic rule of thumb was, "If the gun existed prior to the end of World War 1, you can use it."  Same thing for shotguns, any pre 1918 pump. lever or autoloader in safe working condition, pre loaded like a rifle with however many rounds it would hold, usually 4 or 5 depending on the stage requirements, and you could clear the misses.   There were a few minor variations from club to club, but it was pretty wide open and a lot of fun to see all the different old timey guns that would show up. 

 

Scenarios were genearlly a typical 10-10-4 so that it could be shot concurrently with folks using normal Cowboy guns but scored separately.


It was fun.  It was wide open.  It was compatable with Cowboy. 

 

Then the offical SASS rules came along.   1 1911 pistol with multiple reloads, but still in multiples of 5 rounds instead of 7, and usually 4 or 5 reloads.  1 ordinary Cowboy main match rifle of at least .40.  Only a 97, usually instructed to be loaded with 6 rounds even though many of them only hold 5, and you can't reengage the misses.

 

In other words, the official version of WB is boring.   If there happens to be a WB side match at a big shoot I am already attending, I'll do it, but I'll not go out of my way to go to one that is a stand alone event that uses the offical rules.    But there are still a few places that use the "Classic" or local club decides what they are rules.  Those I will go to, where they still exist, which is getting rarer and rarer.

 

Actually, there is 1 club near me that still allows this classic version of Wild Bunch at every CAS shoot it does.  It is usually well attended and a lot of fun.   But, they shoot on Sundays...

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

While I own 1911's; I don't shoot 45 or 44 in my cowboy rifle.  And If I am buying another rifle, it will be in a caliber that I use for cowboy. 

So the caliber restriction in rifle takes me out of it.

I am in full agreement with Palewolf regarding the magazine restriction of 5 rounds (it is silly, arbitrary and contrary to what anyone will admit, is a holdover from when SASS was trying to implement WB as a SASS category).

 

Want to make the game interesting and more fun to watch?

Drop the lever rifle from the mix altogether - it was just a CAS carryover anyway.

Add a 2nd pistol - A correct era DA revolver in any caliber.

This would add variety to the round counts and endless magazine changes.

 

Add a 2nd shotgun. 

Slam firing a full mag of 12g is the best thing about WB.  Add more of that.

 

And, maybe not every stage, but it is worth pondering a 4-5 shot military bolt action rifle and a true rifle target placement.

Proper steel placed at a 100 yards will hold up to jacketed bullets.

 

With these changes, WB becomes it's own discipline and sheds the cowboy shooting with a 1911 reputation.

 

This is a game I might consider.

 

You and I are thinking along the same lines there Creeker.  IIRC, for a period of time at the local club we could sub a BAM rifle with six rounds for the cowboy rifle, at least when shooting Cowboy 1911 in a CAS match.  That added more realism to the game with the 1911.  Kinda like shooting Cody Dixon in a CAS match, substituting a big bore rifle with 6 rounds at more distant targets from 50 to 80 yards.  I don't recall whether we could sub the BAM Rifle during a WB match.  I'm hanging onto that thought tho for the evolution of WB.  What makes the local BAM side match even more  interesting is (time permitting) to add a 1911 or 1917 and a 1897 or M12 to the mix for the last scenario.  That will have the adrenalin pumping!  It's longer distance (130 yards to 55 yards) then close combat with pistol and stroking the shotgun when the enemy is about to over run the defenses.  Almost Freudian!

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

While I own 1911's; I don't shoot 45 or 44 in my cowboy rifle.  And If I am buying another rifle, it will be in a caliber that I use for cowboy. 

So the caliber restriction in rifle takes me out of it.

I am in full agreement with Palewolf regarding the magazine restriction of 5 rounds (it is silly, arbitrary and contrary to what anyone will admit, is a holdover from when SASS was trying to implement WB as a SASS category).

 

Want to make the game interesting and more fun to watch?

Drop the lever rifle from the mix altogether - it was just a CAS carryover anyway.

Add a 2nd pistol - A correct era DA revolver in any caliber.

This would add variety to the round counts and endless magazine changes.

 

Add a 2nd shotgun. 

Slam firing a full mag of 12g is the best thing about WB.  Add more of that.

 

And, maybe not every stage, but it is worth pondering a 4-5 shot military bolt action rifle and a true rifle target placement.

Proper steel placed at a 100 yards will hold up to jacketed bullets.

 

With these changes, WB becomes it's own discipline and sheds the cowboy shooting with a 1911 reputation.

 

This is a game I might consider.

 

You and I are thinking along the same lines there Creeker.  IIRC, for a period of time at the local club we could sub a BAM rifle with six rounds for the cowboy rifle, at least when shooting Cowboy 1911 in a CAS match.  That added more realism to the game with the 1911.  Kinda like shooting Cody Dixon in a CAS match, substituting a big bore rifle with 6 rounds at more distant targets from 50 to 80 yards.  I don't recall whether we could sub the BAM Rifle during a WB match.  I'm hanging onto that thought tho for the evolution of WB.  What makes the local BAM side match even more  interesting is (time permitting) to add a 1911 or 1917 and a 1897 or M12 to the mix for the last scenario.  That will have the adrenalin pumping!  It's longer distance (130 yards to 55 yards) then close combat with pistol and stroking the shotgun when the enemy is about to over run the defenses.  Almost Freudian!

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Because it Ain't Cowboy !!!

 

I have .40 cal. + rifles I use of CAS ,,, and own a 1911 in .45 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But WB ain't Cowboy ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Just now, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Because it Ain't Cowboy !!!

 

I have .40 cal. + rifles I use of CAS ,,, and own a 1911 in .45 ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But WB ain't Cowboy ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

AGREE!  There are days that I want to be Wyatt Earp with those long smokepoles!

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I like to shoot it.  I bought a rifle for it.  BUT, not everybody can afford a new rifle. Not everybody can afford to modify a 97 to allow 6 rounds in the tube.  As far as I'm concerned, a rifle that shoots a 158 grain bullet or above is fine.  Any '97 or Model 12 is fine and 5 shots should be the limit for loading the tube in the SG.  If we stick to 5 shots in the revolver or pistol, then allow DA period revolvers.  Allow other period semi-automatics with 5 rounds in the magazine.  If we stick to 1911's allow a fully loaded 1911 with one in the chamber and fully loaded magazine with 7 rounds.  Reload magazines should have 7 rounds if we stick to 1911s.  Then it gets to be different from CAS.  Before we received the formal rules, I watched, and enjoyed a shooter with a DA and a speed loader keep up with the 1911 shooters.  I think that would add to the fun.

 

NNV

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO (personal opinion ONLY):

Until WBAS changes the rules to require SEVEN (7) rounds in the magazine of the 1911, instead of only 5, some shooters will continue to see it as

"Cowboy Action shooting with a 1911".

The primary reason I keep hearing against doing that is that going to seven rounds would confuse shooters who are used to multiple 5-round sequences with the handgun...which (also IMO) is somewhat condescending in reference to the adaptability of those who participate in both WBAS and CAS.

 

FWIW - I've been shooting WB-style matches and sidematches for over 20 years...starting long before the WBAS rules were established to regulate equipment, calibers, etc.

 

wb1-M.jpg

Nice kit there, PWB!  In the one experience at the local club using 7-round magazines, we did have a few "P"s due to the 5-shot habit.  Never again did we load'em over 5.  Much to my chagrin!  Maybe I was revolutionary instead of evolutionary when I wrote those scenarios.  I hear that mag changes are part of the skill competition, but it seems to me that changing a mag after 7 rounds is as much challenge as changing a mag after 5 rounds.

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2 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Not for me.  If I'm looking for a match for my 1911, I go shoot IPSC and Steel Challenge.  WB seems more like an excuse to use a 1911 instead of a pair of revolvers.  

Hey Doc, I'm still learning to Break the Shot!  Thanks for your work to publish that.  Not having ever played IPSC or similar games, tell me about the mindset compared to CAS.  In CAS there is a fantasy involved, playing cowboys and outlaws (being PC now), and even in WBAS and BAM Matches I can construct a fantasy.  When playing the IPSC or similar, is there any fantasy created by the scenario? Or is the game so intense that all attention is focused on the shooting techniques?

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We have a few clubs that either allow WB at Cowboy matches or hold a WB match. They allow an Open or Military category. WB Military is 1911, Model 97 or 12, Thompson. Open is any non-WB conforming. That would include pistols other than 1911 or 45acp, Shotgun other than 97 or 12 (one guy brought his A5) Rifle other than lever or pump in big bore. Makes matches more inclusive. Otherwise, it's another $2000 for guns to shoot a side match a couple times a year. The "OPEN" category allows participation with guns you may already have in the safe. On a normal 6 stage match I may have 2 stages that are pretty close to what I'd do Cowboy. 2 will be about 5-10 seconds slower. And the last 2 will be even slower yet. The fun factor makes up for any loss in time.

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2 hours ago, Smokestack said:

I think it has grown about as much as it is going to as a SASS side Match. Post this same question on an IPSC forum and the answer will probably be more clear. 

Good suggestion!  I might feel like a B17 crew member over Germany during WW2!  I am flame proof, maybe not so flack proof, but it's worth a try. :unsure:

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3 hours ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Except for one club having a WB match every 5th Saturday, no clubs hold them except for State and large annuals.

MDT, are any CAS clubs hosting Bolt Action Military Rifle Matches, or must you visit other clubs for that competition?

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2 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

I'm with Creeker as far as the rifle goes......not going to buy a .45 rifle, brass and reloading items. WB isn't offered around here much anyway.

 

I hear the rifle excuse alot though.......take the .45 rule away and they'll draw a larger crowd.

Yep, that's the problem being researched - WB not offered.  Open category and changes to Power Factor could handle that.  Any chance of creating a Cowboy 1911 category in a CAS match?  Sub the 1911 and two mags for two sixguns, everything else is CAS.  While not pure WB it is an opportunity to slide instead of revolve?  Has that been suggested before and fallen on deaf ears?

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15 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Hey Doc, I'm still learning to Break the Shot!  Thanks for your work to publish that.  Not having ever played IPSC or similar games, tell me about the mindset compared to CAS.  In CAS there is a fantasy involved, playing cowboys and outlaws (being PC now), and even in WBAS and BAM Matches I can construct a fantasy.  When playing the IPSC or similar, is there any fantasy created by the scenario? Or is the game so intense that all attention is focused on the shooting techniques?

 

Like every shooting game, it is, in part, what you bring to it.  It's not a fantasy like CAS.  It's a shooting game, pure and simple.  Like CAS, some folks are competitive, others just like to shoot, and some like to chat.  Everyone helps our with tasks like picking brass, taping targets, painting targets, running the timer, etc.  Since targets are taped and painted between shooters, no spotters required.  I enjoy it.  There's movement, movement while shooting, mag changes instead of gun transitions, far targets, close targets, big and small targets, interactive targets, knockdowns, etc.  It's a lot of fun. 

 

Some like to disparage it due to what they consider an "arms race" for the best new equipment and parts.  In my experience, only a few pursue that.  Most are like CAS shooters and friendly and helpful.  I can count on one hand the number of real jerks I've run into over the years.

 

Go check out a match.  Bring an open mind and be ready to learn.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The 1911 holds 7 in the mag. The ONLY load 5 deal, goes against all on my  LEO training, and is just plain DUM. :wacko:

Same goes to only reloading the 1911 at 'slide-lock'.<_<

The '97 SG was never made to hold 6 shells in the mag. But, to use one in WB, the '97 has to be made to do so.-_-

Why can't other SG gauges be used?:huh:

Why the caliber restriction on the rifle?:rolleyes:

 

OLG

 

OLG, are you and Lone Dog related?  He's been a voice in the wilderness, and you are his echo in the canyons!  Continue your preaching, The choir appears to be growing.  Thanks for the input.  If you play WBAS as LEO, does that 5-round rule have a negative effect on how you train as LEO?

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As others have said, when rules were set by each club, many different guns that are period correct were allowed.  It was fun to get out the safe queens and see what other shooters had brought.

 

When SASS standardized the rules, a 1911 that has been tricked out for bulls eye is legal, but a stock Luger P08 or a period correct stock 1911 in 38 acp are not.  Probably  75% of cowboy shooters have a < .40 cal rifle yet they are illegal.  Just seems if the equipment rules were lightened up some, more shooters could get involved.

 

We offer a three or four stage WB match after almost every monthly CB match  many times the stages are written without a rifle so as not to discourage new shooters.  I would guess about 25% of the shooters stay to shoot it.

 

As MD of the cowboy match many times just getting through the CB match is challenge enough for me.  Plus I have to borrow a >.40 rifle and a 1911.  Once I acquire these firearms I will probably join in from time to time.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

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15 minutes ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Yep, that's the problem being researched - WB not offered.  Open category and changes to Power Factor could handle that.  Any chance of creating a Cowboy 1911 category in a CAS match?  Sub the 1911 and two mags for two sixguns, everything else is CAS.  While not pure WB it is an opportunity to slide instead of revolve?  Has that been suggested before and fallen on deaf ears?

Like I mentioned called this turn of century cowboy.  I like two mags of five.  1917 carry extra moonclip

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I stopped shooting WB because of the round count conflict and muscle memory of my training.

We never shot to slide-lock. If you did-You screwed up.........

No other 'game' played with 1911's limit you to 5 rnds in the mag. like WB does :rolleyes:

Irish Pat-Practice with that 1911, so you're not scared of it. Flinch=fear.

OLG

 

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2 hours ago, Bullett Sass 19707 said:

SASS at first wanted WB to be another category of cowboy action shooting.   Second they tried to correct the things they thought were wrong with cowboy action,  that's why the power factor and not having tactical reloads.   Every place I have shot wild bunch or watched it being shot its really cowboy shooting with a 1911 except EOT or Winter range.   Its to late now and I wish they would have listened to PW and others, load 7 in the magazine leave out the cowboy rifle and the power factor,  put in a totally different gun and I think it would have gone better.  I personally hate having to remember 5 or six different sequences,  it becomes a memory game instead of shooting.    Bullett 19707

Bullet, I've not played at EOT or WR. What is different abouit WB at those matches, or did I misunderstand your comment about that?

 

Some days the memory requirement does seem particularly difficult, as in brain farts just as I pick up a weapon.  Was that 'any order' or was there an order? Ask the TO?  Nah, guys don't ask for or read the instructions!  :lol:

 

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1 minute ago, Grouchy Spike said:

Some days the memory requirement does seem particularly difficult, as in brain farts just as I pick up a weapon.  Was that 'any order' or was there an order? Ask the TO?  Nah, guys don't ask for or read the instructions!  :lol:

 

What's a P among friends, right?  :D

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I love me the 1911. I even enjoy the history of the early 20th century Mexican chaos that the Movie portrays. Shot WB back in the days before all the rules. It was fun. 

But the romance and adventure of the Wild West and it's firearms is what attracted me to the game in the first place and that's where my heart will remain.

Wild Bunch to me is like a White Russian. I'll enjoy one occasionally, maybe while watching The Big Lebowski, but my standard and most enjoyed libation will remain Bourbon. :)

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2 hours ago, Brazos John said:

The Texas Historical Shootist Society started shooting Wild Bunch in October of, maybe 1996, if memory serves me correctly, and now we allow folks to shoot it at every monthly match. We allow (and not limited to) 1911's, Lugers, Broomhandles, military rifles (foreign and domestic) of the correct period, 1897's, and Model 12's. We shoot several mags of .45 or 9mm, and then use a different pistol, either cowboy or period double-actions. No power requirement for the rifle, meaning I can shoot my cowboy Marlin. We warn new shooters that we don't use SASS rules, but we invented it, so it's up to us what we shoot. Major Ned and Rittmeister are always impressive in their foreign military uniforms and Mausers and other guns. I dress like the opening scene, wearing my grandfather's ammo belt and canteen, and some e-Bay riding breeches and leggings, and of course, a campaign hat with Texas insignia. It's all pretty heavy, but I look good, for an old guy. And I love to stoke my '97 and get after it.

Maybe SASS should lighten up on the arms requirements, IMHO.

Brazos John, I offer apologies - I clean forgot about THSS because I've not made a match there, and it's a famous club rich in history.  It's a far reach for a one day trip from any location at which I might be, well east or north of Houston or well west of San Antonio,  kinda like flyover territory and we know what happened about that in November.  THSS may have created the near perfect game. What is target placement for WB in monthly matches - cowboy distance (close) or WB distances (further out).  5-round mags or more?  Do you have a set of match scenarios that you could share with me?

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2 hours ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

I've had the guns and rig for years but I work a fifty hour week and by the time I've shot three cowboy matches in a month I'm out of steam.

 

After many years I'm still working on shooting cowboy well. If I take on another discipline I just further divide my time and resources.

Understand about the steam. At age 75+ my boiler doesn't work so well and steam pressure isn't what it was even 5 years ago so the schedule is somewhat curtailed.  Mind is willing, but body says 'go slow'.  KTF!

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2 hours ago, Texas Jack Daniels said:

I own the guns and have the skills.  But I cannot shoot Wild Bunch and CAS a the same time at our regular monthly match. So WB gets zero practice time. Not retired.  Have a "day job". 

Considering demands on your time you have significant accomplishments, and thanks for all that you do for SASS!  One day, in the not too distant future........

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I shoot WB every once in a while.  I'm not fond of the 5 rd rule or the no tac reload rule because I think this "trains" to the wrong level.  If the rules allowed these changes then every 1911 shooter wouldn't have to unlearn something.  Additionally those folks that shoot a 1911 in an IPSC style match would be using the same techniques for WB and not something different so they could effectively practice WB without a WB match being local.

I also believe the 40 cal rifle stops folks from joining.  I understand the basic reason (it allowed for a Rifle to be the last firearm used on a stage since the timer would pick it up)  But keeping the power factor should solve that issue.   Unfortunately the "power that be"(name withheld to protect the guilty) :P  was tasked to write the rules and sees NO reason to change.  (Which doesn't sound very customer friendly to me )

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2 hours ago, Irish-Pat said:

Too much shooting of the 45 auto.  I enjoy two magazines per stage but shooting six per stage had me flinching after stage two and I went back to the trailer and had a beer and Bar-B-Q, after all the guns were put up, of course.

Great alternative, and the cold beer can soothed the tender hand!  I've learned to double the application.  Were you shooting one-handed or two-handed?  Or does it make a difference?

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