Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?

[Orient Express]

Whilst I love my Uberti 1873 lever action, I wonder why pump action rifles aren't more popular for SASS, e.g Colt Lightning? I'm sure if there was enough demand a long time ago, the likes of Uberti or Pedersoli would make them. My daughter will be starting soon so I'm tempted to get a 22lr pump, well just because...

 

Is there something fundamentally wrong, design wise with the pump action compared to a lever action?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

From what I recall, some of the first ones on the market were jam-o-matics; they just would not run.

I do know some of the later ones were better and there are some 'smiths that can make em go like H3!!

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

In all the years I've been shooting locally I only remember one pard who would bring a Lightning once in awhile. On one stage it would run smooth and fast, and on the next stage he'd have to turn it on its side a couple of times and bang on it with the palm of his hand to get an empty to fall out of the action. I suppose that unreliabilty issue is probably why you don't see many around.

Edited April 29 by High Spade Mikey Wilson

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Lassiter, Doc Roy L Pain and Boaz can run the snot out of them!

 

Randy

[Sixgun Seamus]

16 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Lassiter, Doc Roy L Pain and Boaz can run the snot out of them!

 

Randy

I shot with both Doc and Boaz last weekend. They both shoot properly tuned rifles (by Lassiter)  and they are FAST. Boaz is B-Western EOT champion using a Lightning.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

FWIW

my pard, just this past week sold his,  after 4 years and countless trips to the gunsmith he gave up on it.  Will say he never sent it to the gurus of Lightnings just the ones he could drive to here in Houston--doesn't trust sending them by mail.  For him, there was a 'sweet spot' in working the slide and he never could find and stay there during a run.  

 

I've been playing this game for over 20 years and have only seen one cowboy with a fully functioning Lightning.

 

Another pard said they were built for bottleneck cartridges, .44-40s, and straight walls have problems--the one mentioned above is a 45 Colt version.

 

 

 

 

[Griff]

I have one I run in Wild Bunch, a .44-40 AWA.  I bought it second hand and it runs well enough that I can keep up with it.  I still haven't figured out if it likes aggressive cycling or not.  The near constant movement of the left hand changes the dynamics of steering the thing... and not necessarily in a good way!

[Outlaw Gambler]

Original Winchester Colt in 32-20, tuned, my wife used it for 5 or 6 years without a hic up and brought home a state championship using it. She quit shooting a year ago and I took it out to a match just to keep it from collecting dust. 

[Bison Bud]

To try to address the original question and at least in my opinion, the lever gun has a slight advantage in that the front hand, the one that primarily points and supports the rifle, remains steady.  On the pump action, this hand is in constant movement and this can be an issue for some with sight picture, etc.  I am not saying that this can't be overcome and some of the pards already listed here can really make one sing, but it is a factor to consider.  Other than that, I think that the popularity of the Colt Lightning clones in this game has been somewhat restricted due to the early models having some real issues jamming, etc.  If my memory serves me, this was also somewhat true of the original Colt models and a primary reason the lever guns won out back then.  Anyway, if I had or wanted a Lightning replica, I'd talk to Lassiter and have him set it up to run, as I'm pretty sure he is one of the top, if not the top gunsmith for this style rifle in our game (pretty good on most everything else we use as well).  Good luck and good shooting to all.   

[Frontier Lone Rider]

Availability and cost.

 

I had a stainless-steel Taurus Thunderbolt in 45LC.  It ran flawlessly, never a jam or hiccup.  But, in 45LC it spit in my face with blow back.  I could never find one in 44-40 which I believe would have solved this problem.  I know some folks said one can anneal the brass or take other measures, but I just sold it and bought an 1866 in 44-40.  Problem solved.

[Go West]

I don't think anyone makes these anymore.

Few gunsmiths work on them.

Many are ammo specific: OAL, bullet shape and/or grains.

[Diamond Jake]

3 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Lassiter, Doc Roy L Pain and Boaz can run the snot out of them!

 

Randy

 

Don't forget Doc's better half Pinky Buscadero.  She often uses the same rifle and has won many buckles herself.

Edited April 29 by Diamond Jake

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Basically, the replica rifles of the Colt Lightning are crap.  Most are also now out of production.  The best of the replicas is/was the Pedersoli.  AWA also had lightnings's that would mostly run.  Not worth the money nor the post purchase work to make 'em run.  There are VERY few that run well enough for real competition. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Lightings?

 

You mean these?

 

 

From top to bottom...

 

Colt Large Frame.  .45-85.  (Colt's proprietary version of .45-70 using a 285 grain bullet.  You can load for it with unmodified .45-70 brass.)

 

AWA Medium Frame.  .45 colt.   My first Lightning.  I wanted to get one just to have one.  It has become my favorite main match rifle, and the only one I've ever shot a clean match with.  I am faster with it than any lever gun.  (But I am a slow shooter.)

 

Colt Medium Frame.  .44-40.  Costa Rican military surplus.  Note the bayonet lug.  (Anybody got a bayonet for it?)

 

AWA Medium frame .44-40.  My second Lightning.  The .45 Colt version gives you a lot of blow back, and must be kept clean, or the firing pin channel will get clogged with gunk and make it not fire.  (Gunscrubber is your friend if you have one in .45)   One day I said, "If I ever find a .44-40 AWA, I'll buy it."  I did, and I did.  Never regretted it.

Colt Medium Frame .32-20.   Works flawlessly.  Was sold as being "lovingly restored with an expert action job."   The original magazine spring was weak with age, so I replaced it.  No problems since. (Genuine antique.)

 

Colt Small Frame .22 Long.  A sweet little shooter.

AWA Lightning Bolt pistol, .45 Colt.  Exceedingly rare "Mare's Leg" type pistol based on the Lightning design.  Not sure how many AWA made before they folded up their tents, but I have read less than a dozen.   Very fun gun to shoot!

Not pictured:  Taurus being reconfigured to .44 Special by a gunsmith.   Will say more about it when I finally have it on hand.

Once the Lightning Bug bites you, you will become addicted.   And once that happens, well, this picture happens.   

Here's a run down of what the general consensus on the Wire seems to be about this classic design.

Original Colts.  Hit or miss.  On the one hand, Colt stopped making them for a reason.  On the other, they made a lot of them before throwing in the towel.  They seem to be hit or miss.  Generally, later ones worked out a lot of the issues the early ones had, but the early ones can be made to work.  All of my real Colts are antiques and work just fine.   Work I've had to have done to them is minimal, and more due to age than lack of workability.   Exception to this is the .22.  It was made in 1899.  Original Colts do slam fire.

AWA.  Some people love 'em.  Some people hate 'em.  My own experience has been very positive, and I would recommend one if you can find it on the used market.  When I was trying to get my first one, I saw three in the same gun store.  An AWA, a Taurus and a Beretta.  The Taurus action felt like pulling two pieces of sandpaper against each other.  The Beretta was smoother, but very clunky.  The AWA was butter smooth, and just felt right.  I bought the AWA and never looked back.   It's a .45, and supplanted my beloved Winchesters as my favorite type of gun.  Other people report nightmares with this gun, but that is not what happened to me.  I'll be honest and say that it seems to be luck of the draw.  They slam fire.

Pedersoli.  Has a reputation for being a very well made gun.  Will work well out of the box, but some pards may feel some tuning is needed.  I don't have one of these, so I can't comment beyond what I have read.  I don't think they slam fire, but can be made to do so.   The most expensive when new of all the replicas, but you get what you paid for, and they are the only ones still being made.

Beretta.  I believe these were made by Uberti.  As described above, I felt it had a very clunky action, and did not buy it.  No experience with how they actually work or if they slam fire.

USFA.   Rare as hen's teeth.  They didn't make very many before the company imploded.  Commentary on the wire has been mixed from so so to excellent.   Don't have one, so I can't comment.  Don't know if they slam fire.

Taurus.  Supposedly it makes a very good tomato stake.   In the days when other new ones were selling for 6 to 9 hundred dollars, these were $400.   That may tell you something.   They CAN be made to work.   The gunsmith who is creating me my .44 Special told to get a Taurus .45 as the base gun, so I did.  IIRC, someone told me they don't slam fire, but can be made to.

If you like these things, you'll wind up loving them.  If you don't, no argument, no matter how reasonable, will change your mind.   I suppose that is fair, given how it seems to be hard to get one that runs reliably.   But as a wise person once said to me, why is it so bad that they need some work?   Almost every one has their lever guns tuned at least a little bit for our game, so why is it a problem for the Lightning?

 

Will I get more of these?  Possibly.  I have no pressing need/desire to do so.  Nor do I wish to have one in every possible caliber.   But the idea of having at least one of every manufacturer is an intriguing one.

Beware the Lightning Bug!   His bite causes an incurable fever!

As others have said, Lassiter is the guy for these.  I have had to have some repair work done to mine, and he has been able to fix 'em up perfect every time.   

As far as other pump guns go, Remington did come out with one in .44-40 the early 20th century, but that makes it outside of our time period, and it's hammerless, so it's not a viable alternative.

Then there is the Marlin 27.  These were in .32-20, and hammered, so even though they are a post 1900 design, it has been suggested that they may be okay.   BUT, I have never seen one at a match for a very simple reason, they all have half magazines and won't hold 10 rounds.   That makes them not really viable either, even if they are okay.
 

 

Edited April 29 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Probably something to do with spending a small fortune on three different ones to make them work consistently and finally throwing  in the towel.  I would love to have one that is reliable but lever guns just work, all of the time.  I am still partially infected with the bug but is became a lesser priority.  I even bought a Henry Pump .22 and it works flawlessly.  

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Interestingly enough, pump guns do seem to be dominate in the .22 areas of our game.  Good reliable pumps can be had for a fraction of the cost of a .22 lever gun, when you can even find them.  A Winchester 9422, Marlin 39A, or even an Uberti made replica of the .22 version of the Winchester 73 or their ersatz model 66 .22 will cost more used than many good quality pump action .22's cost brand new.   Yes, there is the Henry .22 that is very reasonably priced, and by all counts, a good gun, but prices for some of these things are outright weird.

[Irish Pat]

levers go on rifles and pumps on shotguns. our grandfathers figured it out years ago but I guess we have to re learn it

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Part availability and smiths to install them are very limited.   Whereas a lever gun, even a 92, can be worked on by many.

 

good luck, GJ

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Yeah, they are cool guns but rarely seen for the reasons already listed, but there are always exceptions. Justin O Sheriff had an original in 32-20 that he could run very fast. 

[Cholla]

I tried a Lightning. After working a lever, it was a train wreck trying to operate the pump under pressure. 

[Taos]

I bought an AWA Lightning in 44/40 just for sport.   I like messing with guns and getting them working like they should.  But......the Lightning kicked my butt!!  Try this, try that, make a load like this, make a load like that, pump it like this, pump it like that, the gun don't care.  It'll work fine one stage and then find a new and interesting way to jam up.   UUUUURG!   I know I could send it to Lasseter, I could also just leave it standing in the corner.   Or hang I could hang it on a wall, someone else's wall because it would just piss me off every time I saw it!  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

2 hours ago, Taos said:

I bought an AWA Lightning in 44/40 just for sport.   I like messing with guns and getting them working like they should.  But......the Lightning kicked my butt!!  Try this, try that, make a load like this, make a load like that, pump it like this, pump it like that, the gun don't care.  It'll work fine one stage and then find a new and interesting way to jam up.   UUUUURG!   I know I could send it to Lasseter, I could also just leave it standing in the corner.   Or hang I could hang it on a wall, someone else's wall because it would just piss me off every time I saw it!  

 

Interesting.

My own AWA .44-40 works just fine.  I guess this "verifies" my notion that AWA is hit or miss.

You can hang it on my wall, if you want.

[Roger Rapid]

I run a Pedersoli Lightning in .45LC and love it. And I know of a bunch of folks who shoot one with great success. The only snags I have - which are few and far between - are caused by me and not by the gun. Of the versions available (used) the Taurus "Thunderbolt" is not well crafted and only runs with a lot of work. The Uberti "Gold Rush" is a fair substitute and is fitted with an over-abundance of safeties - it, too, needs a lot of work to run well. In my opinion Pedersoli makes the best Lightning clone. Beautifully made and engineered. It has been in a product line re-evaluation stage for the past 18 months or so and new versions will be released in early 2024. On the outside, the Colt, AWA, USFA, Taurus, Uberti, and Pedersoli all look the same. On the inside the are all very different. I have teardown manuals for the Taurus, Uberti, and Pedersoli.

 

Because of the stability and sight-acquisition issue Bison Bud alluded to, longer/heavier barrels are steadier (I shoot a 26˝ octagonal barrel for stability), and I do much better with it than with my round-barrel 20˝ carbine version.

 

Lightnings are fun to shoot and can be quick.

RR

 

Based on data I have there are several hundred cowboy action shooters using Lightnings.

[DeaconKC]

8 hours ago, Taos said:

I bought an AWA Lightning in 44/40 just for sport.   I like messing with guns and getting them working like they should.  But......the Lightning kicked my butt!!  Try this, try that, make a load like this, make a load like that, pump it like this, pump it like that, the gun don't care.  It'll work fine one stage and then find a new and interesting way to jam up.   UUUUURG!   I know I could send it to Lasseter, I could also just leave it standing in the corner.   Or hang I could hang it on a wall, someone else's wall because it would just piss me off every time I saw it!  

I gotta talk to you about this!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I am not a machinist in any way, shape or form - but I have often wondered "why" with modern cad/ cam machines that no one has taken the Winchester model 62 22 LR design and put it into the Xerox machine to "upsize" it to a 38 special platform.

Obviously there would be some slight design changes to accommodate centerfire and not everything would require a % for % upsizing - but we know the 62 design works.

 

If I had the know how and equipment - I would try.

[Hoss]

On 4/29/2024 at 7:32 AM, Griff said:

I have one I run in Wild Bunch, a .44-40 AWA.  I bought it second hand and it runs well enough that I can keep up with it.  I still haven't figured out if it likes aggressive cycling or not.  The near constant movement of the left hand changes the dynamics of steering the thing... and not necessarily in a good way!

Thats a fine rifle! 

[Hoss]

I enjoyed shooting the lightning, until I’d have a hiccup. They are hard to get squared away on the line. I’d get the occasional stovepipe or misfeed. I do think it was more operator error than the guns fault. 
I was once at LT and cowboy next to me thought I was breaking a rule by loading it with action open. 
 

I have a Pard who really liked them. He runs a Lightning and 87 about as well as I’ve seen anyone do it! 

[watab kid]

i always liked that pump but my brief experience and that of a couple friends left nothing but bad taste as they didnt work reliably at a match even after tweeking the rifles and the ammunition , ied all sorts of things but always got poor results - consistency was just not there but the levers we got to run reliably and with no problems getting there 

Edited May 6 by watab kid

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I was once at LT and cowboy next to me thought I was breaking a rule by loading it with action open. 

I must laugh.   The same thing has happened to me.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Most have been used for Tomato Steaks and left in the field. 

That's about all most was good for .

 

[doc roy l. pain]

Funny thing about this topic. If the lightning clones are such bad rifles for sass as most uninformed people think, then why are they so expensive?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

"Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?"

 

The fact that many had "issues" is well-known and is the reason for many people.  The answer for me personally, and probably a few others, is that I have never had any desire to own or shoot a pump rifle for CAS.  It sort of gets back to why many of us are doing this in the first place - we grew up on westerns.  There were no pump rifles (nor shotguns) in those westerns.  Therefore, they didn't fit my perception of what I wanted to be and shoot.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with how reliable (or not) they ran.  I was the same way with '97's - I enjoyed watching a skilled person run one but had no desire to shoot one.  That is, until I had to get one for Wild Bunch and shot it in CAS a few times and found out that it is fun to shoot, especially when I started slam firing.   

 

I do own a Remington pump .22 that belonged to a brother who has passed.  I've only shot it a couple of times and it is rather clunky and doesn't make me want a Pedersoli 

[Griff]

Doc, you very well know the answer to your question... relative scarcity, and complexity of design/build.  And while a few might think they're "bad rifles for SASS", I think that's more a reflection on the Taurus reputation, observed continuing mishaps on the line, plus the difficulty in mastering their very different operation, when you have years and years of muscle memory to overcome.  Some talented folks can span that bridge quite easily, while others struggle.  I enjoy mine very much, but do struggle with it sometimes.   Sometimes it runs like a house afire, other times it's like the firemen are gaining ground!  I'm more than certain it's operator related, but haven't yet figured out just how to consistently get that house afire run.  And while I limit my Lightning use to Wild Bunch, the difference in stroke length between the 1987 or mdl 12 and the Lightning is such that I'm still a bit "off" with the Lightning.  

[Cypress Sun]

57 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

"Why aren't pump action rifles more popular?"

 

The fact that many had "issues" is well-known and is the reason for many people.  The answer for me personally, and probably a few others, is that I have never had any desire to own or shoot a pump rifle for CAS.  It sort of gets back to why many of us are doing this in the first place - we grew up on westerns.  There were no pump rifles (nor shotguns) in those westerns.  Therefore, they didn't fit my perception of what I wanted to be and shoot.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with how reliable (or not) they ran.  I was the same way with '97's - I enjoyed watching a skilled person run one but had no desire to shoot one.  That is, until I had to get one for Wild Bunch and shot it in CAS a few times and found out that it is fun to shoot, especially when I started slam firing.   

 

I do own a Remington pump .22 that belonged to a brother who has passed.  I've only shot it a couple of times and it is rather clunky and doesn't make me want a Pedersoli 

 

I grew up on "Westerns" also. The "Western" that had the most impact on me was a movie that my Dad took me to see on one of his returns from Vietnam...The Wild Bunch. Up until that time, I was sure that the "old" west was like Rawhide, Wagon Train, Bonanza, The Big Valley and some others. The Wild Bunch movie sure wasn't Bonanza suffice to say.

 

I've never used a pump action rifle in a match, I've actually only shot one a couple of times. The first time I shot one, a cowboy named Deadeye Dallas asked me to shoot one so he could video it. I'd heard about them, they sounded like a cool gun, so I tried it. I like it, a lot. Never had the inclination to buy one though. There's a video of it somewhere on YouTube.

 

I've only seen a couple of them run decently. Deadeye Dallas and Pistol Packin Peanut had some that would run good, seen videos of others that ran good. Just don't seem as reliable or as easy to keep on target as a lever gun though.

 

 

Edited May 7 by Cypress Sun

[doc roy l. pain]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Doc, you very well know the answer to your question... relative scarcity, and complexity of design/build.  And while a few might think they're "bad rifles for SASS", I think that's more a reflection on the Taurus reputation, observed continuing mishaps on the line, plus the difficulty in mastering their very different operation, when you have years and years of muscle memory to overcome.  Some talented folks can span that bridge quite easily, while others struggle.  I enjoy mine very much, but do struggle with it sometimes.   Sometimes it runs like a house afire, other times it's like the firemen are gaining ground!  I'm more than certain it's operator related, but haven't yet figured out just how to consistently get that house afire run.  And while I limit my Lightning use to Wild Bunch, the difference in stroke length between the 1987 or mdl 12 and the Lightning is such that I'm still a bit "off" with the Lightning.  

Funny you should mention the pump shotguns. I’m just the opposite. So use to the stroke of the lightning that I short stroke the 97 and don’t get it closed half the time lol