H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

At EoT and other big shoots, there is often a gun, or guns, being given away. Sometimes you have to buy a ticket, sometimes the ticket is included in the price of attending. Point is, sometimes at the really BIG shoots, some guns are given away. So with that in mind, in general terms, what would you like to see as a giveaway at a big shoot? On the one hand, sure I'd take anything for free and/or a $10 raffle ticket, but what would people REALLY like to see as a prize? Pistol New: Now, I am from Massachusetts, so the only currently manufactured SASS legal revolver that is legal for purchase new in the state a Ruger. So, I'd have to by default choose that. Used: Again for legal reasons, it would have to be something that is C&R eligible. If it's not, you have to be able to prove that it was registered in the state prior to 1998 (I think...), or it can't be imported. Just being made before the cutoff date is not good enough, it has to have been registered in the state. And even then, you have to have the license to do it. (Yeah, Massachusetts sucks) So with that in mind, I guess I'd choose a 2nd Gen Colt. Rifle New: One of the new Pedersoli Lightnings in .44 Magnum. If I could get the gun for free, I'd be willing to spend the money to modify it to look more traditional. Used: Antique Winchester 92 with factory 14" barrel. (Hey! This is wish list, not a reality list) Shotgun: New: 1887 with a long barrel Used: Parker SxS with a 19" barrel. Believe it or not, Parkers can still be had for less that $1000 that might be ugly, but are still shootable. I am not talking a 5 figure gun here! Those are what I'd really like to see. The new guns are of course, much more plausible, but I have seen nice vintage guns being given away as well on occasion. I remember at one shoot they were giving away a Model 12 Trap gun, for example.

This may sound silly, but I'd send it back to Colt and have them do it. Get a letter while you are at it, and keep the receipts for the refinishing. It'll look better this way than any other, and if you do ever try to sell it, proof of a factory redo will not hurt it's value like a "it's been reblued" will. Of course, this may be the most expensive way to do it, and might cost more than the gun is "worth" but if I had a gun that I really wanted to refinish, this is the route I'd take. (Granted, Hartford is only a 3 hour drive for me...) Of course Colt's refinishing service, unless things have changed, is not a proper "restoration" per se, but it's the best, "gunsmith refinish" you can get. On the other hand, there are gunsmiths out there that do excellent work, up to and including a full restoration. Depending on what you actually want, you have options to consider.

If I had written the stage, I would look at what happened and realize that the instructions were not at fault, and that there was no need to change. But, even if that is objectively true, and let us assume that it is, if I FELT that my instruction could have led to the shooter making a poor choice, I would not write the instructions this way again. They'd be different at the next shoot. But that's just me.

I shot this variation a few years ago when I went out to Nevada to do a multi day shoot there. I found it to be a lot of fun. Used my 86 Winchester in .45-70 cuz I didn't have my Large Frame Lightning yet. I even too the trophy for 3rd place in the "smokeless repeater" category. An interesting category allowed for the use of the Winchester 94, but only in .30-30. I do have a pre-83 one in that caliber, but I would have really wanted to use my pre-64 in .32 Winchester Special Oh well. (And, I really wanted to use the 86 anyway.) I wish some clubs here in New England would offer the option.

I have not seen anything since the "announcement" at Shot Show from Hodgdon that it would be out sometime this year.

200 Grains RNFP on top of 5.5 grains of Trailboss. Whatever the OAL is when you crimp in the crimp groove. Never chronoed it. Same bullet in .45 Schofield, 4.5 grains of Trailboss.

Meh. I don't put anything on my hotdogs, but I don't care if someone puts ketchup on one. There is in this case literally, no accounting for taste. But as far as the 11th Commandment goes, "Thou shalt not speak ill of thy fellow Republican." I believe Ronald Reagan said that one. And it's good, but I've got one that trumps that... "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." A fellow named Jesus said this one. I gotta go with this one for number 11.

Okay, I checked my NRA Centennial, Ned Buntline New Frontier and Reconstruction of Old For Des Moines commemoratives. All are .45's and all have a staked in recoil plate.

Heh, I had not thought of it in this context. Lessee.... Yeah, for carry, a 3" Sheriff would do well. For when I am trying to do my best at a CAS shoot, I use 4-3/4" guns. For when I am just trying to have as much fun as possible at a Cowboy Shoot, my Big Iron with the 10" barrel comes out paired with a random revolver depending on my mood. Unless they allow me to use the Lightning Bolt. Then I'll use that. For Long range pistol, the 12" Buntline comes out. For a semi auto? For concealed carry, a Colt Mustang .380 For open carry, a 1911 in .45 ACP.

I've got everything from 3" to 12" barrels on my guns. All are fine, depending on my mood at any given shoot. But, if I have a favorite, I like 4-3/4", not 4-5/8" because the former is a Colt, and the latter is a Ruger, and I prefer Colts to Rugers. As to WHY that length, I just think it's the coolest looking length.

Are you talking a DIY job, or having a gunsmith repair/restore it? If DIY, I'll assume you are capable of the needed work. As is, especially since it's not working, I'd say a full "restoration" is a worthy thought, although, I'd keep the grips. Caliber.... There is no such thing as S&W .38 Short There is .38 S&W and .38 Short Colt, two very similar, but incompatible cartridges. I'd say with 99-44/100% probability that it is a .38 S&W, but be sure. Old top breaks like this are a lot of fun to shoot, and I don't think you can go wrong with it.

And that, I do think is great. There is a market for it. I hope it does well for you.

I while back, information was posted here on the Wire how Pedersoli was gonna be marketing a version of the Lightning in .44 Magnum. At the time I was intrigued, but given how the pictures released at the time showed how it had been modernized and didn't really look like the classic Colt anymore, I was reluctant to be interested. But, a few minutes ago, I was thinking, well, I'll I'd have have to do is replace the wood with more traditional looking stuff. Shouldn't be to hard. So on a whim, I went to the Pedersoli website to take a look at it again. https://www.davidepedersoli.com/en/product/jackal44-44-rem-magnum-pump-action Needless to say, when I saw this, was very unhappy with what I saw, and decided as soon as I saw the pics that I was no longer interested. Now, in all fairness, they do say that their targeted market is hunters, and that's fine. And in fact, some of these feature that turned me off probably do make it a better hunting gun, even if they do make it a gun that is not for me. Here are the features I don't like; The stocks. While I do like the pistol grip shape, the buttpad and fore stock just look wrong to me. I thought they might be easy to swap out for something more traditional, but everything else just makes it untenable. The Magazine. It's short. It should go out to the muzzle. The Muzzle: It's threaded. The sights: Well, I suppose they could be swapped for more traditional looking ones. The tang safety: UGH and ICK! No price is listed on Pedersoli's page, but I did find some folks asking for $2100 and change for them. For that much money, I don't want to have to put in even more for purely cosmetic alterations. And for that money, it better run well right out of the box. I don't own a Pedersoli in my Lightning collection, and they do have a rep for being good right out of the box, so I'll assume it's okay. All in all, a good idea, the Lightning in .44 Mangum, turned into something that probably most Lightning users in the SASS world would not like, has been turned into a bad idea. (I can hear Tom Bodett explaining it. If you know, you know) For that matter, is marketing it to hunters really a good idea at all? The Lightning is very much a niche gun within the CAS world, and outside of it, I wonder how many people have even heard of it. I wish Pedersoli well with this, and I hope it does well for them. but I have my doubts. I and I have a feeling that they will not market a more traditional looking version for the CAS crowd. Oh well.

I am glad that watab is so agreeable. Seriously, while there is a reason why, for example, that the Winchester 73 (or clones thereof) is the most popular gun in our game and that most of the "top tier" shooters use one, there have been people in the winners circle with just about everything at one time or another. Granted, there may some guns that are more suited to that nebulous concept of competitiveness, but in the end, what you enjoy is much more important. I have seen people win with 73's 66's, 92's, Lightnings, and and various Marlins. I've never seen anyone win with a Henry Big Boy, a "real" Henry, or a Winchester 94, but I have seen people have loads of fun with all of these guns, irregardless of how "well" they did in the grand scheme of things. Heck, I've never won the category I've shot in, let alone the overall match. One time, I did take third place in my category, but that's it. But I have never failed to have fun at any shoot I have gone too. What are my favorite guns? I am very much in the minority here, but it "works" for me. Rifle: AWA reproduction of a Colt Lighting in .45 Colt. Pistols: 3rd Generation Colt SAA that was my fathers in .45 Colt with a 4-3/4" barrel Armi San Marco clone with 10" octagon barrel cut down from a Rossi 92 barrel and 1860 (Pietta) grips. My "infamous" Big Iron. Shotgun: 30" Full Choke Winchester Black Diamond Trap gun. (Sometimes I do use other things, just to mix it up. I plant to shoot a .32-20 Lighting with Colt Bisley's and a single barrel shotgun in the near future. I also want to break in my 3rd Model Schofield rather soon.) Probably the most eclectic battery you'll ever see at the range, but people who have shot with me will tell you that I have fun, may not be a speed demon but am at least competent, and that I am an enjoyable person to have on a posse. (At least, I hope they will!) When all is said and done, I think those are the most important factors. Good luck!

The best gun, is the one you enjoy shooting, no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

My first SASS Colt was my father's 3rd Generation Colt .45. It is still, usually, my first primary Main Match gun, but what it get's paired with is anybody's guess, or even if I use it. The first gun I paired it with was an Uberti '58 Remington, cartridge converted .38, but I really wanted another .45 to go with Dad's Colt. One day I walked into a LGS and there was an Armi San Marco clone on the used shelf for $250, and it was a .45. Well, for that price, I bought it. This gun is the one that started my "process" of expanding my collection of SASS legal guns quite a bit. The ASM and Dad's Colt were the first guns I ever shot a clean match with, and it was at End of the Trail, no less. It originally had a 5-1/2" barrel, compared to to the 4-3/4" on Dad's Colt. Anyway, the ASM served well for many years, even though, as acquired more guns and it didn't get used as often. But, it's story did not end. The ASM was the gun I used to make my Big Iron pistol, and doing so has caused it to wind up back in my holster more often again.

I guess my original "grail gun list" was to have 1 each of every Winchester lever action rifle. I wanted originals where possible, replicas were needed. I've gotten most of them. I've listed only the first one I got in each model. I've added others. Henry: Uberti Replica in .44-40 66: Uberti Replica in .44-40. 73: Original in .32-20 76: Uberti replica in .45-60 86: Original in .45-70 87: Original in 12 gauge. 88: Don't have one. Want one in .308 for completeness. 92: Original, rebarelled to .44 Magnum. 93: Original in 12 Gauge. (Okay, it's not a lever. But getting into SASS made me aware of these classic pump guns that are of the era.) 94: Pre-83 in .30-30 95: Original in .3-40 97: Original in 12 Gauge. 1901: Don't have but would like a 10 Gauge for completeness. 9422: .22 Magnum On a more peripheral desire, the various models that were really just the 86, 92, and 94 slightly updated with button magazines and and different calibers are on the to do list, but not as high a priority. I think the guns in question are the models 71, 54 and 65 respectively, but I am too lazy to look them up. I guess I need to add the new lever .22 to the list now as well. After that, other grail lists include 1 each of every cartridge firing US Military rifle and sidearm. Originals where possible. I've got most of these now, but I have learned a few others that were Substitute Standards that I need to look into. My general criteria is that they had to be for general issue, not experimental guns, and at least 1000 of them purchased. The sidearm collection has a few replicas, but is mostly originals. On the rifles, for something like the Trapdoor Springfield, I am content with one rifle and one carbine. I don't need to have an example of each model in the family. Same with the civilian versions of the AR-15. For the Krag, I have a rifle, carbine, and one of the short rifle variants. I consider the 1903 and the 1903A3 to be different guns, as well as the A4 and the M1-D And I keep learning about other, obscure, but still widely used pistols. I wonder if I'll ever complete these lists, as they keep expanding!

Interesting. Never heard of this, but it makes some sense, but should be better publicized somehow. Now, purple people eaters, them I have heard of.

They first came out in the 1970's. That means that at least some of them are, or soon will be, C&R. That's an important consideration for me as I live in Massachusetts. The BFR's are not Mass Compliant and therefore out of reach. They are also only 5 shot revolvers and look squashed to me. The Century is a 6 shooter, so it's got a fatter cylinder and looks more proportionally correct. Remember, this is all an exercise in silliness.

BTW, does anyone have one of those Century Manufacturing .45-70 revolvers they'd be willing to sell for a reasonable price? You know, one of these monstrosities... It'd be the perfect revolver to pair with the .45-70 Mare's Leg. And using the .45-45 ammo, pleasant to shoot.

On a related note about the Why? I have found that once you start down this path, it becomes more and more something that you like to play with. Too that end... This is the exceedingly rare AWA Lighting Bolt. According to an article in Guns of the Old West magazine, 8 or less were made before AWA closed up shop. I was VERY lucky to get this one. The holster is by WM Brown out of Tucson, Arizona. https://wmbrownholster.com/product/mares-leg/ In fact, all of my Mare's Leg holsters are by them. They had to slightly customize this one cuz the Lightning Bolt is a bit fatter that the 92 based pistols they designed it for. This was the first pistol of this type I got. A few years later, I discovered a "pistol" made from a real Lightning that had recently sold at auction. So, the concept does go quite a way back. The pistol is a Chiappa. The caliber is .44 Magnum. Replaced the factory D loop lever with their "Rio Bravo" loop. This one is a Uberti made Taylors. The barrel is 16.5" and I had the stock cut back to Mare's Leg length. This one is a .44-40. The big loop is again aftermarket. And yeah, drawing from the holster is a little awkward, but doable. Now, you may be wondering why I didn't get them all in .45 Colt to match the Lighting Bolt. Well, to be honest, I got them in the caliber that would match the more conventional revolvers and rifle that they would theoretically be combined with. But of course, they would up being paired with each other. Oh well, there's nothing wrong with a multi caliber shoot. Once I get the proper stock for the 86, I'll contact the holster maker and see of they can make me one of these holsters for it. And then, there is this... No holster, and it is a bit "flippy" when fired, but not excessively so. This is a Chiappa. Wish they'd made it with large loop. The idea of writing an article for a gun magazine for all of these is in my head, but, well... I dunno. What's next? Not really interested in the Henry Repeating Arms Mare's Legs, and nobody makes one based on the Marlin, but if they did, I'd be interested. No way I'd reconfig an original, unless maybe I could find an antique one with a 14" factory barrel and get a second stock for it. Those rifles are specifically exempt, but I don't know if doing the stock would re-regulate them. I'd have to look into it, I suppose. The only other thing I can think of is one based on an 1860 Henry to create a kind of an ersatz Volcanic. But that'd be more trouble than it's worth.

Minimum overall length for NFA '34 is 26" This gun is over that. As far as why goes, cuz it's fun! I mean, why do you own Corvette when an Impala will do, and is probably much more practical? Cuz it's fun. With regards to .45-70 and recoil, my initial Trapdoor safe load in this caliber worked great in a Trapdoor rifle, but was a nasty shoulder thumper in a Trapdoor carbine and my 20" 1886 Winchester. Switched to Trailboss, and the recoil was suddenly very comfortable. Of course, Trailboss is currently unobtainium, but I have a lot of loaded ammo on hand. I plan on shooting it next Saturday, so I'll comment on the recoil afterwards.

It holds 4 .45-70's, 6 .45-45's or 5 .45-45's behind a single .45-70 round. I plant to take it to the range a week from today.

Remember how Steve McQueen used to have .45-70 cartridges on his gunbelt that he used to carry his Mare's Leg? It was a TV absurdity, as if a .45-70 could fit in a Winchester 1892. Ridiculous! But, the gun itself was wicked cool, and even though they are not SASS legal, many of us are fond of them, and even own one, or maybe more. But... The concept of a Mare's Leg in .45-70 has always been an intriguing one to me. It's certainly not practical, but the Mare's Leg itself really isn't, so who cares. But is it even possible? Nobody makes a 1886 in the Mare's Leg configuration, so that means making one yourself. But THAT means running afoul of NFA '34. Or, does it? If you're willing to have one with a 16" barrel and an overall length of at least 26", then you don't have to worry about NFA '34. So, all you need is an 1886 with a factory 16" barrel that you can then modify into Mare's Leg configuration. I say factory 16" because that way you KNOW it's long enough and don't run the risk of cutting it too short in a cut it yourself modification. (In my opinion.) However, finding a 16" '86 is a bit of a challenge. That being said, Taylor's does market one made by Chiappa with that barrel length. Here is the page on Taylor's website of for the the rifle in question. But for the sake of simplicity, I'll post a couple of pics of the gun here directly. https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/1886-tc86-takedown-16-5-45-70-lc1-220100.html As you can see, there are some "issues" with the gun. The sights are the most obvious. But, it does have a pistol grip stock and a large, or at larger, loop lever than a standard one. It's also a takedown model, which is a plus in my book, but some might not like that. Also that thread cap would have to be replaced with a smooth one. Or at least it would if Mare's Leg's were legal. Now with that as a starting point, behold, an 1886 Mare's Leg in .45-70! As you can see, I put on traditional sights, and had the stock cut to pistol grip shape. I do have a smooth thread cap on order, as as you saw in the second pic from the website, the forestock has an unconventional shape to it. I have also ordered one in the traditional shape. The action was smooth, but a little clunky, and very heavy. In truth, if I was using it as a rifle with the regular stock, I would have found it acceptable. But in this configuration, it was not. So, I had an action job done. It's not at all clunky anymore, and while still heavier than a 92, it's much better. Still have to brace the grip against my chest to start action open, but it then levers quite well. I did consider enlarging the loop, but decided against it. Now, you may be wondering about those two cartridges under the gun... The one on the right is a .45-70. The one on the left is a .45-70 trimmed back to .45 Colt length. I call it the .45-45. I "developed" it to use a sub round in a couple of my single shot rifles, allowing for a cartridge I can use in .45-70 chambered rifles that can be loaded to .45 Colt pressures (if "hotter" than normal) that are still way below "Trapdoor safe" levels. Anyway, to my enjoyment, I discovered that these shorter rounds will cycle through the 86 with no problem! Well, you gotta run it a little slow, but they do work. (They also work flawlessly in my Large Frame Lightning with no problems and without having to slow down.) And so, that's the rundown. The final modifications will be done as soon as I get the needed parts, and I look forward to shooting the thing as the earliest opportunity. There is a local club that let's me use my Mare's Legs, and I'll ask if I can try this with the .45-45 ammo. If not, that's okay. I am sure they'll let me put a few test rounds in the dirt after the shoot is over. I'll let you know how it turns out. And getting back to the title of this thread, THIS is what the Mare's Leg should have been. It would work with .45-70, taking away a little bit of the absurdity we saw on TV. Or perhaps replacing it with a different level of absurdity. And even if they stayed with the 92, they shoulda used one with this kind of a grip. I look forward to, just for laughs, running a few rounds of .45-45 loaded with smokeless in it, but then the last round being a .45-70 loaded with black. People will be surprised. This WOULD be just a few rounds in the dirt for fun, and I am sure it'll surprise the onlookers. Finally, once I make the final modifications, I plan on sending a pic to Taylor's with the suggestion that they either trim the barrel back to the same length as the takedown lever, or even a non take down with a button make and the barrel shortened back to the octagon length, and sell it as a pistol. They won't, but it'll be fun to suggest it.

What are you planning to use for a rifle? .45 Cowboy Special has been mentioned for use in revolvers, but it is generally too short to work in most of the rifles we use in this game. On the other hand, I have learned that .45 Schofield will reliably run through an AWA replica of the Colt Lightning and replicas of the Winchester 92. (Or at least mine.) If won't work in a 73 though. If you wanna go with a shorter cartridge to allow for lower powder charges, this is an option.