H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

I still think a matched pair is over rated. I should double duelist style, and while most of my guns are Colts, none of them are in the exact same configuration. But I've been known to pair Colt with a Smith, a Buntline with a Nagant, a Walker with an SAA, and many other configurations. That they are different does not bother me.

Well, I just finished this match way out in Nevada, and I had a great time. I was using my 30" 97, 2nd Gen Colt with with the 7.5" barrel, the Restoration of old Fort Des Moines commemorative Colt with the gold finish and wooley mammoth ivory grips, and my 1891 vintage 86 in 45-70. Using that gun put me in the "Tom Horn Smokeless Repeater" category. I had a lot of fun. How much fun, you may wonder. This much fun... I choose to believe that there were at least 4 people shooting this category...

I beg to differ. Not only is it west of the Hudson, it's west of the Mississippi. It's even west of the Rockies. That's way out west.

One other "thing" I'd like to have some day is to find a 71 with a shot out bore and rebarrel it to 30-40 Krag caliber. I'd bet that with the same bullets used in a .30-30 that this would be a very nice shooting gun. And yes, I'd "full length" the magazine tube. That's why I want one with a shot out bore. I couldn't see doing this to one still in good shootable condition, or to any already existing 86.

I am currently way out west in Nevada shooting at the Roop County Days match. One of the things that attracted me to this match was that they have a "Tom Horn" category whereby you substitute a rifle caliber rifle for the normal pistol caliber one in the Main Match. You can use either a single shot rifle or a repeater. Depending on which type of rifle you use, you get a slightly different course of fire from those using a pistol caliber rifle, shooting at targets that are much further away than is typical in a SASS type match. I am using my 1891 vintage Winchester 86. I have also seen 94's, Rolling Blocks, Trapdoor Springfields, a Marlin, and and a reproduction 76 as well as a Japanese Winchester 71 that the owner modified into an 86 shooting 50-110. Anyway, this is the first time that I have fired my 86 in anything other than a long range side match, and I have to say that using it as a main match rifle is a lot of fun, and that the gun itself is a pleasure to shoot. With a good loading, even with a 405 grain bullet, .45-70 can be made to have almost no noticeable recoil, and yet will still reach out and touch things are far away as a few hundred yards. Granted, we are not talking those kind of distances at this match, I'm just pointing out that it does not have to be downloaded to being little better than that a pistol cartridge in a big case. The gun itself is capable of great accuracy, and I think I am doing well so far, even if I have lost the clean match. But here is where it get's interesting. I had assumed that shooting the 86 would be essentially the same as shooting a 92. Boy, was I mistaken. Shooting this big rifle was really very different in a way I can't really explain. Now, as some of you may recall, my favorite main match rifle is the Lightning. So much so that I am kind of rusty with a lever gun whenever I pick one up. But when I was using the 86, I took to like a duck to water. Shooting it was so natural that I didn't have any kind of learning curve adjustments to make. I guess old Mr. Browning really knew what he was doing with this design. In conclusion, I enjoyed shooting this gun so much, I found myself wanting to shoot other big bore lever guns. And since the odds of anyone ever marketing a reproduction of the large frame Lightnings being about the same a Massachusetts electing a governor when the R after his name does not stand for "RINO," and with originals being both rare and super expensive, and not to mention in odd calibers, I doubt I'll ever have one. But I've clearly got the big bore fever. I wish that more clubs offered something akin to Tom Horn, or even better, add such a rifle to the mix, making for a 10-10-5-4 match. After all, more shooting is more fun, and it would give us an excuse to either pull out that safe queen more often, or even better, go out an buy another gun. Happy shooting, all.

Much has been argued about this gun. The various safety issues do require caution, but I do believe they can be addressed. Assuming that the issues are properly addressed. Assuming that the gun is in proper working order, and that you are using either short black powder shells, or have lengthened the chamber to allow for the use of modern length ones, but still loaded with black powder, it should be safe to fire. Just like an original 87, a Spencer, a Burgess, or even, gasp, a 93. That being said, yes, there is a lot more to consider than just the length of the chamber. I did see one once at a localgun shop once, and it failed all the safety checks, so I passed on it. I saw another one at a nearby Cabelas, a "newer" one that was in riot gun configuration. It looked to be in pretty good shape, but the store would not take off the trigger guard to allow me to do the safety checks. Nor would the clerks take it out back and perform the checks themselves. Needless to say, I passed on it. I regretted letting that one go as it looked really neat, but there was no way I was gonna get it without checking to see if it was in proper working order. As to the properness of this, and other early pump guns being not allowed in our game, well, with the very real concerns over the Marlin, I get it. I don't understand the others being banned, or the 93/97 while we are at it, as I know of no real safety issues with them beyond the exact same ones that exist with original 87s, that is to say short chambers and black powder, and that gun is allowed, so why not the early pumps. All of that said, I think that ultimately, safety is up to the shooter, not to the organization. I would be willing to admit that not allowing the Marlin is a wise safety precaution, but not the others. As far as "Marlin" saying don't shoot the gun, it has been stated here that the company that made that announcement was technically not the same one that made the guns, but I am unclear on that detail, so I'll let it go. One final caveat, I have no idea if later production guns have proper length chambers and if they were made for smokeless or not. That is why I universally assume short and black only.

Even I can't yet THAT loud.

Simple question, needing a simple answer.

I use generic magazines with mine. They work just fine. Of course, I am very limited as to what I can get, since the 1911 is deemed to be an unsafe design by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and you can't buy one here unless it was registered in the state prior to 1998 or if you can go the C and R route. I think someone came out with a Mass compliant one a little while ago, [Springfield?] but I am not sure.

Remington Rand 1911A1 GI surplus made in 1943. Second choice Colt 1911 GI surplus made in 1913.

Even "Trapdoor safe" loads of .45-70 can have very unpleasant recoil in a Trapdoor carbine or an 86 Winchester with a 20" barrel when using other powders. With Trailboss, those guns become very pleasant to shoot. It does the same for .30-30, 30-40, .303 Brit, .30-'06, 7 and 8mm Mauser. I've heard it does well for the big Martini-Henry round as well and many other rifle cartridges. With SASS type pistol calibers, I have not found any powder that has less recoil than Trailboss, even if you are using a max charge of the stuff. Oh, and even a minimal charge with a 230 grain LRN bullet will cycle a Tommygun,

I use for everything from .32 S&W to .45-70. There's not a single SASS usable caliber (in my collection) that I have not used it for, and even a few that aren't. It's a good powder, and it works. And it is low recoil, which is some rifles can be important. And as far as it being dirty goes, yeah, but it's still a smokeless powder and it cleans up pretty easy. So I have to use a couple extra patches than with some others. Not a big deal to me.

Very true. In the about 11 years I've been doing this, I've only seen it written into one stage, and I've only been to 1 club where it was a general policy. This is actually a rule change I would advocate: always allow the stoking of 97's and 87's on the clock.

Oh, I know that. I remember folks using Weblys, Lugers, 1917's and all sorts of other interesting pre-1918 pistols. That was a lot of fun! But, there's the difference, I said pre-1900.

While the idea of using a pre-1900 DA revolver, if cocked single action style, as a main match gun has some merit, I don't think doing so would really be in the spirit of the game. That being said, I see no reason why some sort of a side match can't be built around them. Many of the side matches are built around other guns of the era that are not used in the main match, so why not these? What form could said side match take? Only the limits of the imagination are in the way. This does not require a new category, or a rules change, or any other drastic modification of our game. It's just another side match that folks are free to participate in or ignore as they see fit.

Huh? Roy Rogers and John Wayne were not the actors real names. They were stage names. They were aliases. If the men who used those stage names, Leonard Slye and Marion Morrison happened to be SASS members, then I'd say that their aliases were worthy of retirement. If they were not SASS members, then the aliases should be available for anyone to claim.

Was Leonard Slye a SASS Member? If so, I'd say his alias should be retired. Same for Marion Morrison. You know, Roy Rogers and John Wayne. But if they WEREN'T SASS Members then I'd say they should be wide open.

Hey, a d texaz, I gotta ask, why does my post make you sad?

All of my Webley's are shaved for .45ACP/.45 Autorim. Glad you found one in the unaltered caliber. I really think there should be a place for these pre-1900 design DA revolvers. I don't know what that place should be. Allowing them used as Main Match guns as long as they are cocked single action style is probably asking for too much, but some sort of a side match for them would be a good idea.

Yep. Going crazy trying to find all my 1911 mags...

Aw... Oh well, more for me.

Shall I bring some Moxie? It is of the era, after all.

The story is rather simple. I've not had a vacation in 4 years, so I was looking for a shoot "out west" that I could go to after visiting a couple of friends who live in Arizona, and invite them to come to the shoot with me. Based on work schedule, it had to be in September. I asked on the Wire, "Any big shoots out west in September" and someone mentioned this one. There were a couple of other options, but the option to add a "rifle caliber" rifle to the main match sealed the deal for me. They chance to do it a little "different" was just too good to pass up. My friends can't come, but they were potentially interested. I'll still visit them though. As far as why I drove, well, it's difficult to travel with that many guns and all that ammo any other way.

Well, I have not yet loaded .32-20 with black, but based on my experience with other calibers, I'd venture to say that the same bullet you use with smokeless will work just fine; with the caveat that you must use a black powder compatible lube.

I should have been more specific on my post. I use the Lee dies on a Lyman turret press. I prefer Lee dies cuz I really like the "powder through the expander die" feature that they have. No need to take the brass out of the press to put the powder in. At first I was having problems with the completed cartridges fitting in some of my guns, so instead of trying to seat and crimp with the one die, I now only seat with the seating die, and then I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die to crimp. Since I did that, I've never had any problems with my rounds chambering. (Same for .44-40) I run a .313" 100 grain RNFP bullet over 3.0 grains of Trailboss with small rifle primers. I use this bullet because it was in stock the first time I had to buy bullets for this caliber, and I have stayed with it. Runs well in a 1st and 3rd gen Colt, a Winchester 92, Winchester 73 and a Colt Lightning. The general procedure I use is Lube--Resize/Deprime--Tumble to Clean--Prime--Powder--Seat--Crimp. .32-20 is a very fun round to shoot. It can make a surprisingly loud bang, but recoil is practically non existent. The only "drawback" is that finding guns to shoot it can be a little difficult. I don't think anyone is making new guns in the caliber, for example, so you are limited to what you can find on the used market. Perhaps this time my "good luck" will make more sense, as I've given you something to work with.