H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

I am looking for a very specific CMP 1911. I want one of what they called a "Range Grade" pistol. It must have an ambi safety. Any other unusual features it has don't matter. I know this is a needle in a haystack, but it is what I am looking for.

Yeah, there is some truth to that.

Heh heh. I once preached a sermon on proof-texting. My whole point was that when done, it must be done carefully with an eye to the context that texts are taken from to make sure you are using them properly. Which is usually the exact opposite way that most people do it; willy nilly with no context.

Your post made several costume possibilities come to mind. Old fashioned striped prisoner uniform. What amounts to an orange sweatshirt, blue jeans and a placard on the chest with a variant number like 176-761. A black trench coat, cap, and mask. Actually, almost any "villainous" costume, could work. But the real question is what should the pistols for robber category be. And more generically, what should the rifle be?

Speaking as a Baptist preacher, I have to say that I am often amazed at the strange ideas that were come up with at times. Remember, just because someone does something "in the name of God" that does not mean it is OF God.

That actually was a trope in many cop movies and TV shows for a long while. That's why I considered a Robber category where the shooter would have to use an automatic. I suppose it would be a possibility. Anything from a .25 to a .45, reloading as needed?

Ah yes, March 17th. The day that General Washington pointed a bunch of cannons at General Gage and said, "Get out of Boston or I go boom!" And so the Brits left, never to return. Thus was born the holiday known locally as "Evacuation Day." The day that only politicians get off from work to go get drunk on beer with green food coloring in it. But the parking meters in Boston are free, cuz it is a holiday is "Suffolk County" with is basically Boston and one or two bordering towns.

Fascinating story. I did not know it, and I am glad to have read it. Oddly though, it is true that dogs won't eat them. Or at least, mine won't. She'll eat just about anything in the way of leftovers/table scraps, but not potatoes for some reason. She's weird.

Serious part of response... I never could keep track of all the S&W model designations. Not so serious part of response... From henceforth I shall refer to it as the big honkin' S&W .44 model something with a 29 in it. Other part of the response. I remember Fish, but I don't remember his gun. I just "chose" a snubbie for the detective class because that was the "generic" what you expected one to have back in the day. With regards to how targets should be set up, I suppose any layout from something very SASS like to a Hogan's Alley setup to anywhere in between is viable depending on the resources of the place trying to do it. Would it be a standalone game? A sidematch at a larger SASS shoot? Anything is possible, I suppose. For now, it was just an idea I had. If anyone wants to turn it into a reality, I say go for it. The details can be worked out as needed. I just wanna have fun with more old guns, and have an excuse to get a S&W snubbie to pair with my Colt.

Yes, I know that. I am a Life Member of the Zoot Shooters organization. (Number 99) That's why I said that this idea is "similar" to Zoot Shooting, but not exactly.

Get to the Choppa!

Let's assume, just for the sake of discussion, that the sasquatch/bigfoot is a real animal. A breeding population would need to be rather large to sustain the species. Assuming such creatures live in the "deep woods," it is semi-plausible that they are in areas where people do not go, but this is getting harder to believe. If they exist, it just seems to me that it won't be long before undeniable proof is found, probably by accident. And IF and when such proof is found, we'll be hearing about it in the mainstream press almost immediately. But until that happens, it remains speculation at best. Personally, I think it would be rather nifty if some currently unknown creatures like bigfoot, lake monsters, yeti, and so on could be shown to be real, or if things like the mystery of Oak Island, the fate of Jimmy Hoffa, the Alcatraz escapees, and so on could be clearly solved, but I doubt that any of them ever will.

When many of us were kids, we used to play "Cowboys and Indians," and in some ways, our game is kind of a descendant of what we used to play as kids. Well, at random this morning, I found myself remembering another game we used to play, "Cops and Robbers." That got me to thinking as to what a shooting game based on that, along the lines of CAS, might look like. Now, as far as pistols go, CAS is built around single action revolvers. It seems to me that the Cops and Robbers game, in keeping with the vintage feel, would be built around "old fashioned" double action revolvers that are what cops everywhere used to use. More than likely, the most common ones to use would be the S&W M&P/Model 10, the Colt Police Positive and similar revolvers by others. Seems like the caliber, under normal circumstances, would be anything from .32 S&W to .357 Magnum. Continuing with the "pre-80s feel," I also thought that a pump action shotgun with a 20" barrel and a standard length magazine would make sense. Not sure what kind of a rifle would make the most sense. By the 70's, many police stations were still using their vintage Tommyguns, but were starting to phase them out in favor of AR's or Ruger Mini-14s. Not sure where to go in this area. I tend to lean towards a pistol caliber carbine of some kind instead of the more modern things in .223. I even thought about some categories. Patrolman: Shooters will be wearing a "police uniform." It can be a replica of any police uniform, or a recreation of the uniform of a favorite TV character such as TJ Hooker, Barney Fife or Roscoe P. Coltraine. Revolvers would be a "standard police issue" type revolver and a snub nose "backup" revolver. Both must be drawn from a holster on a gunbelt. One Speedloader for a reload. Out of respect for the police, I would say that no shield/badge should be worn when not actually at the shooting event. Detective: This would be a "plain clothes" officer, so pretty much anything goes. But, the revolver, both primary and backup, MUST be snub nosed, and carried in holsters concealed by their clothing. One Speedloader for a reload. Adopting the persona/look of a famous TV Detective such as Joe Friday, Barney Miller, or Lt. Columbo is optional. SWAT Officer: Sidearm would be a Colt 1911A1. No backup, but extra magazines for reloads. Dirty Harry: Sidearm is a S&W 629 or comparable revolver by another maker. Caliber is .44 Special or larger. If you wanna use .44 Magnum, please download it! No backup. Multiple speedloaders for reload(s) I decided against trying to come up with a "robbers" category to avoid their being too many variables. Stages would be not all that different from what we do in CAS. And, as I ponder it, it still has more of a vintage feel to it than a modern take on the concept. I think it'd be a lot more fun to pull out those old S&W's and play with them than to show up with a Glock. I suppose in some ways, it is similar to Zoot Shooting, but not exactly.

These three guns would definitely be able to handle the .38/200 version of the round. That said, I also run normal .38S&W in them. Surprised you don't get good accuracy though. I've got a Colt Police Positive with a 2" barrel made in 1924 that was my go to "snubbie" in Zoot Shooting. One caper had a "long range" shot with the snub . Maybe 100 feet at a fairly large target. I was able to hit it.

In another thread, the topic of rechambering a revolver to .38 S&W is being discussed. Fascinating thread. It has inspired me to start a more general thread about the .38 S&W cartridge so as to allow the other thread to continue with its specific subject. It dates all the way back to 1877, and even though no new guns have been made in the caliber for decades, finding factory loaded ammo is remarkably easy. Over almost a century and a half, I've venture to guess that millions of guns have been chambered for this little guy, which is probably why the ammo is still being made. Many, if not most, guns chambered for the round are old time top break revolvers that are not super robust, which is why factory ammo is loaded well below what the cartridge is capable of. And I speak of loadings that below the approximate performance of the original black powder load, not some of the higher power variations have existed over the years. Now, right off the bat, it is worth mentioning that it is not a part of the .38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, .38 Special, .357 Magnum family. For one thing, it uses a .360" bullet, not a .357" and the case dimensions, while very similar to the Short Colt, are not the same. While the above family are all straight cases, the S&W round is very slightly tapered, leading to the incompatibility. But as alluded too, there are some variants of the cartridge. The first, is the .38 New Colt Police. Usually this stuff will be headstamped .38 COLT NP. It is for all intents and purposes, the exact same thing as .38 S&W. Colt just didn't want to put ".38 S&W" on the revolvers they made for the cartridge. The only difference in the commercial loading is that the S&W used a 146 grain round nose bullet, and the Colt round used a 145 grain Round Nose Flat Point. A rather trivial difference, performance wise. Another variant, that goes by multiple names but is most commonly referred to as .38/200 was the main sidearm cartridge of the British Empire during the WWII era. It fired a 200 grain bullet at much higher velocities/pressures than the original round did. Firing .38/200 ammo in an older .38 S&W is a good way to blow it up. That said, things made by Colt, S&W, Webley, Enfield and others can handle the higher pressures of this round, and they can of course fire the older one with no problems. Finally, there is an interesting variant called .38-44 Target. This is NOT the same as the .38-44 that led to the .357 Magnum. It is a .38 S&W case that has been elongated to the same length as the cylinder in the New Model 3 revolver, that had it's bullet recessed into the case. It was developed for target shooting, and is very accurate. And, you can of course chamber .38 S&W in guns chambered for it. It takes it's name from being a .38 caliber cartridge in a revolver sized for .44 caliber cartridges. Okay, ALL of that aside, in our game, the .38 S&W is primarily used in pocket pistols, and perhaps derringers. The above mentioned New Model 3 is one of the few "full sized main match" revolvers that exist for it. Colt also made a very small number of SAAs in the caliber, but whenever I find one for sale, they cost well over 10 grand, so I don't own one. There are also a few single action 5 shot revolvers made by S&W, and others (but not Colt, they made comparable sized pistols in 38 Short or Long Colt) that would be main match legal if you don't mind the handicap of having to load the 5th round on the clock if there is no way to safely rest and lock the hammer between rounds. Now all of that being said, I have long wished that there were more main match type revolvers available in the caliber. Especially ones that could handle smokeless powder. It's a great little round that is fun to shoot, very accurate, by design a low power round. It fits our game well. There are no main match type rifles that exist for the round, as far as I know. (In fact, I've never seen a single shot for it either.) I doubt that there would be enough demand to justify chambering the round in any of the guns on the market today that could accept it, but I would grab one if they did. Some points to ponder and discuss: 1. Did anyone else back in the day chamber a single action revolver in the caliber? I assume in probably limited numbers. 2. If you could cause a new production revolver to exist, other than a Colt/Clone, what would you like to see chambered for it? 3. Amongst those of us who DO shoot the round, do you find it to be an addictive caliber? I know I do. I started out with small frame vintage revolvers, and from there I branched out to various "full size" DA ones and never stopped. Nothing else to add right now, so, Happy Shooting!