H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

Last February, there was a shoot that was billed as the End of the Trail Warm Up Match" in Tombstone, Arizona a couple of weeks before EoT itself. Does anyone know if that shoot is being planned again for next year? I know it's a bit early, but rather soon I'm going to have to be coordinating vacation time at work and other logistics.

FIL? MIL? Not familiar with those abbreviations...

If you have the C&R FFL, you are authorized to engage in "interstate commerce," of C&R type weapons for personal use. (You can even cross state lines with a C&R Machine Gun without the ATF's permission.) It's just an added level of protection of you have a Federal Permit to do so. Anything over 50 years old is automatically C&R. So are some things under 50 years of age that the ATF decided were of more collector interest than potential use as a weapon. Most notably 2nd Generation SAA's, or even a brand new Sheriff's model in .44 or .45 caliber. Anything made before the 1898 cut off date, even cartridge guns, is an antique and not subject to FEDERAL Firearms laws. State laws may vary. That's why I think C&R's might actually be "safer" with the specific permit.

I haven't quite gotten this paranoid. but sometimes I find myself thinking it might best to only travel with C&R type guns, and of course have a copy your C&R FFL with you as well as documentation for the guns in question. (Factory letters, a hard copy of the C&R Book, etc.) Or maybe even antiques.

Hmmm... The Colt is also 150 next year. Any chance Colt and Winchester will team up to issue a joint commemoration?

Trail Boss... What do I use it for? .32 S&W .32 S&W Long .32 Nagant .32-20 .38 Short Colt .38 S&W .38 Long Colt .38 Special .357 Magnum .44 Special .44 Magnum .44-40 .45 Colt .45 ACP 56-50 Spencer .30-30 .30-40 .303 British 7mm Mauser 8mm Mauser .30-'06 (for bolt action rifles only) .32 Winchester Special .45-70 It's a pretty useful powder.

Wouldn't it be easier to get a pair already in .38? If you don't wanna keep the .45's, use 'em for trade in and save some money that way. Or keep them and then you have the option of either/or.

I will not dispute that. However, I think there are two kinds of collectors. There is the "Colt Collector," who will indeed turn up his nose at these guns and say they have "no collector value" because the engraving was not done at the factory. These folks *tend* to buy guns as an investment, not as shooters. On the other had, there is the "collector of Colt firearms that he really likes," that may find these guns to be very interesting. This is the person who will look at these guns and say that they are really nice, just happen to be "real Colts" and think that they are worth the asking price. These folks are much more likely to be shooters, and be willing to buy almost anything, and pay a premium for a "nicer" gun, even if it has "no collector value." I put myself in the second category. If these guns were .45's or .44's and had 4-3/4" barrels, I'd very seriously consider them. They may never command the price the factory gun would, but they are nice guns and would make for fun shooters. So yeah, there are two types of collectors. Those who insist on authenticity, and those who just want a nice pistol. And that can be everything from an ugly as sin shooter, to the guns this thread is about. Prices will reflect the condition of the gun. And there probably is some overlap in these two camps.

Keep in mind that as 2nd Generation Colts, they are automatically C&R eligible. Since the engraving is not factory, and the grips are aftermarket, that may be moving you into a gray area as they not in "original" configuration. But at a gunshow once, I asked some ATF guys about things like this. They basically said that if the gun is over 50 years old, they really don't care anymore if it's been modified all that much. They said that sporterizing an old Mauser, changing the caliber and so on would take it out of C&R, but that doing things to "return" a gun to how it was originally was okay, and could even restore C&R status. They also said that doing something like engraving was not so much a modification as an embellishment, and since it was something done to enhance collector value, they didn't really care about that either. Then when I pressed specifically about guns that are less than 50 but still on the list, like a 2nd Gen SAA, they basically said, "Same answer." That was what the ATF guys at the show said. If you are at all concerned about if these guns are still C&R or not, look into getting something *in writing* from the ATF to confirm. Getting a Colt letter to document that it is 2nd Gen, even if the other stuff is not factory original, would not hurt either. When you ask, just be sure to say that the engraving is not factory, and if possible document who did it. Same for the grips. If you've got the originals, it will not hurt to put them on the gun (or get some grips of the same type that they came from the factory with) and sell the ivory ones as extra parts that come with the pistols.

Second Generation makes them valuable. Engraving makes them more valuable. Ivory grips also enhance the value. Did they come from the factory or are they after market? Not *Factory* engraving may give you less of premium, but I think it still enhances the price. Personally, I'd say $5000 each. If the engraving were factory, I'd be more likely to say the eight grand was legitimate. PERSONALLY the caliber makes them less interesting to me, as does the barrel length, but now we are getting into preferences. I have no idea how those factors affect the price, if at all.

It is an excellent caliber. As I was first starting out, I thought it would be my main caliber. Didn't turn out that way, but it's still a good one. I have a Buntline Special and a pair of Sheriff's models (All Colts) as well as a pair of clones in the caliber that I like to take out from time to time. I also have 3 more revolver in 44 Magnum that I can run Specials in if I want to. But that brings me to why it didn't become my main main match caliber. Finding a rifle in .44 Special was, and remains, difficult. I have a couple of 92's in .44 Magnum, and thought I'd run Specials in 'em. Didn't work so well. Lotsa stovepipes and other problems that don't exist when running Magnums in those rifles. I did once see a 73 in .44 Special but the timing was bad, so I passed on it. All of that being said, I WILL soon have a Lightning in .44 Special, so I'll finally be using the caliber on a regular basis. (Lotsa ammo loaded up for it.) I have found the .44 Special to be very accurate cartridge at range, and it is very easy to reload for. All that being said, it might be easier to go with something like .45 Colt or even .44-40, but once you are set up for the .44 Special, it is no hinderance to our game. (And yes, you can use the same bullets that you'd use for .44 Magnum.)

Well, for a .44 Magnum, although they do exist, you are probably not talking about a 73. I've seen pictures, but never an actual gun. Assuming you can find one in the caliber, it is well known as to how the 73 can be made to run well for our game. That being said, you are much more likely to find a 92 in the caliber. You are talking either Rossi or Chiappa. Personally, I'd spend the extra money for a Chiappa, they are good to go right out of the box. Rossi's will probably need some work. I've got 3 92's in .44 Magnum. My first one is a pre-safety Rossi. If I was dead set on getting a Rossi, this is what I would hunt for on the used market. Not only do they not have not annoying modern features, IMO they are of better quality. The new Rossi's are very clunky to me. My pre-safety one ran okay as it came from the factory, and it was only after I had another 92 that was really, really nice that I realized that my Rossi could be better. So, I had Happy Trails smooth it out a little. He did and excellent job. I specifically did not have it turned into a "race gun." I simply had him "fix" some very mild clunkyness. My second 92 in .44 Magnum is a real Winchester that someone rebarreled to this caliber, put on a John Wayne loop, and shortened the barrel to 17.5" It still holds ten rounds. (According to its factory letter, it started life as a .38-40) This gun is a slick as butter and works great! I would not advise so modifying a real Winchester in this manner today, but apparently for a while many years ago it was a commonly done thing. You may be able to find one, and if you do, as a real Winchester, it'll be good to go. My 3rd .44 Magnum 92 is a Chiappa in Mare's Leg configuration. Right out of the box, it's as smooth and reliable as a vintage Winchester. If you want a new 92, then the Chiappa is recommended without reservation. Other 92's I have are a Winchester in .32-20 and an Armi San Marco in .45 Colt. The ASM is a very pretty gun, but it had the most disgusting out of the box action I've ever had the misfortune to acquire. This was the first gun I had to have an action job done on because, well, it was all but unusable otherwise. It's now slick and great, but I would not recommend the ASM if you happen to come across one in the caliber you want on the used market. One last thing, I found that running .44 Specials in these guns can cause stove pipes and other cartridge malfunctions. Running just the Magnum cartridge is pretty flawless. And that's my experience with 92's in .44 Magnum.

I start by checking the Shooter's Handbook. If I am unclear after doing so, I ask here and wait for Palewolf to make a post.

Huzzah!

Getting a little further afield in this topic from where I started it, I have to say that I do like the old S&W Top Breaks and their reproductions. While I prefer Colts, the S&W's do make for an interesting change from time to time. For real S&W's I have 2 New Model 3's, a target model in .38-44, and "regular" one in .44-40. I also have a Model 3 DA in .44-40. The DA has probably got the smoothest DA trigger I have ever pulled, and unlike some other DA revolvers of the era, it is VERY easy to cock it SA style. I suppose the soon to be acquired 2000 model can be considered real as well. As far as Uberti reproductions go, I've got a Schofield and an American, both in .45 Colt. I recently learned that the reproduction Russian can also be had in .45 Colt, as can the Laramie. I am seriously considering getting one each of the latter two pistols so that I can have complete "set" of the reproductions in same caliber. Time will tell if I bother. (That, and finding ones that are legal to buy in Massachusetts can be problematic.) Anyway, Top Break Smith & Wessons are fun.