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how many MDQs before you are black listed


Irish-Pat
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we had a shooter accidentally fire his pistol at the loading table as he was spinning the cylinder checking for high primers,( MDQ). I was at the end of the table at it was right in front of my belly! Another time he tried to shuck his double and sling the empty shell over his shoulder as some guys can do. Well he lost control of the shotgun and hit timer operator with the barrels. I was told he started shooting another club and has had more safety issues.  Have. we ever thought about any kind of listing for people that just aren’t safe? Irish ☘️ Pat 

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We have a couple shooters that are at the end of their ride. The TO will walk them through the stage and just let them shoot (no one is really keeping score) a few of the rest of us will walk them through loading and staging. Sometime thay just need a little extra help. If you have a trouble shooter assign a few people to help them if they don't except it put them on poise 86. Remember we will all be there soon than you think.

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We have in the past banned a shooter for hazardous behavior.  And mentioned it to other local clubs in case they felt the need to do the same.   Some did.

 

It's really a club-by-club call, IMHO.  Could be because of many different reasons, which would be tough to fully list in the rule book.  But any repeated behavior of violating gun safety rules or common decency to fellow shooters, and being unwilling to correct such behavior or accept appropriate assistance, may be a reason to ban a shooter.  

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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59 minutes ago, Assassin said:

This was brought up at the TG meeting at WR2020. I don't recall the outcome of discussion.

 

WR 2020 TG Meeting Minutes

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Worked for me.  

If / when someone is habitually doing dangerous things with firearms, because of age or any other reason, they need to go.  Assisting, counseling, etc. is a bad plan.  You can't call back a bullet. For the good of the sport.

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If the link doesn't open for you, as it didn't for me... here's the pertinent part:

Quote

G. JT Wild brought up the issue of aging in our sport, conveying valid concerns about how clubs should respond to shooters who are becoming a danger to themselves and other shooters around them. A long discussion ensued, with many options being discussed. The final thoughts were that we all are aging, and we need to keep an eye on each-other for signs of physical impairment or deterioration. If shooters have a concern about a fellow shooter in their club (or wherever) they should bring those concerns up with their club leadership, or those in authority in their regions. Then those people would create an opportunity for viewing that shooter in action to make their assessments. If it is confirmed that issues exist, then a plan to assist, educate and help that shooter become safe. At very worst, a kind, respectful and gentle approach should be adopted to convince the shooter (hopefully self-regulate) that they should not be shooting. The ROC and SASS will consider writing an article to address this very sensitive issue.

 

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We had a shooter that had terrible ammo. Constantly having squibs and double charges. He wound up being banned from every club in S/Central Tx 

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Yes please exercise the right to refuse them to shoot and endanger someone at the shoot.  Act like you are holding a firearm and/or have ammo or equipment that is safe.

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Was shooting on a posse when a shooter became confused at how many shots he fired so he pointed the barrel in his face so he could see what was left in the cylinder. He kept you on your toes never knowing what he might do. I think after the last incident some things may have been said, he has not been seen since 

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this happened years ago. We had an older shooter trying to keep up with his young son who was very quick. The daddy was unsafe at our range and we heard he did the same type of behavior at another club in our area. They no longer shoot thank goodness.

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The old rule of liability was, "When danger is reasonably forseeable, liability will follow."

Would not hurt a club to chat with their insurance provider to see where that line is drawn.

That way, the club is just trying to keep their policy from being cancelled, instead of being accused of picking on a certain shooter or shooters.

Not a lawyer or insurance agent, just my view from the cheap seats.

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Sometimes just some quiet, consistent mentoring can alleviate these kinds of things.

I agree, that if that doesn't work, more drastic action must be taken to prevent an incident.

A range incident here in Canada, would likely result in the closure of the range for an indefinite period.

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As a club secretary for 26 years I've had the tough job of giving some elderly (very unsafe) members the 'tap on the shoulder' that their day to hang up their guns has arrived.

 

Always, always done it with much kindness, just as how I want to be treated when my time arrives. 

 

Some accept it well, even thank you, some don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Buckshot Bear
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7 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

As a club secretary for 26 years I've had the tough job of giving some elderly (very unsafe) members the 'tap on the shoulder' that their day to hang up their guns has arrived.

 

Always, always done it with much kindness, just as how I want to be treated when my time arrives. 

 

Some accept it well, even thank you, some don't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a tough row to hoe.

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presently we have a member similar to those mentioned above.  Background:  Was in ICU because of COVID and with reduced Oxygen levels has lost some brain function--mostly memory but has shakes, too

 

Dr pulled his driver's licence do to this

 

we 'shepard' him through the stages.  ROs coach him on target order.  He's still safe handling firearms but we're watching him very closely.  

 

It's become a match-to-match project.  

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Over Thanksgiving we had an older member who had not shot for a few years attend a match with his son who was visiting.  After two stages he withdrew from the match stating he could no longer shoot.  I really respect the man's decision.

 

I know the shooter who GJ's club banned.  He also was banned from an indoor shooting range.  After shooting a hole in his neighbor's garage he gave up competitive shooting.  I don't know who gave him the message but he is not missed.

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I've never seen or heard of someone being "banned" from shooting CAS around Florida. It wouldn't surprise me if there was such a person. I do know of several instances that merited closer attention, but as far as I know...no action was ever taken. Two examples below.

 

An elderly shooter started appearing "befuddled" and confused over a period of time. He was a very nice person that always tried to help out regardless of his advanced age. At what was evidently, his last match, he had brought full boat .357 factory JHP ammo to the match. I was the TO on the very first stage that he shot that day. The stage was on a boardwalk with a doorway in the middle and windows on either side. The first revolver was through one of the windows at some fairly close targets. He pulled the first revolver, started shooting and the heavy flak began. We didn't let him get to the doorway before stopping him. The ammo was discovered when we sent him back to the unloading table. Match DQ for the ammo. He put his stuff in his vehicle and never saw him again.

 

Another shooter was always what seemed like a "loose cannon". Hard to describe, but we all know that person that describes the word. Last I heard of him, he physically assaulted another shooter (punched him in the face). Never saw him again.

 

With elderly folks whose skills have declined to the point of being considered unsafe due to physical problems or mental acuity problems...I believe that they must be gently consulted and told that it's time to hang up the guns. I've never had to do this, but I think that I may have to...sooner or later. 

 

Like Buckshot Bear, I just hope that when it's my turn for "the talk", that the folks doing the consulting are caring, polite and firm.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

I've never seen or heard of someone being "banned" from shooting CAS around Florida. It wouldn't surprise me if there was such a person. I do know of several instances that merited closer attention, but as far as I know...no action was ever taken. Two examples below.

 

An elderly shooter started appearing "befuddled" and confused over a period of time. He was a very nice person that always tried to help out regardless of his advanced age. At what was evidently, his last match, he had brought full boat .357 factory JHP ammo to the match. I was the TO on the very first stage that he shot that day. The stage was on a boardwalk with a doorway in the middle and windows on either side. The first revolver was through one of the windows at some fairly close targets. He pulled the first revolver, started shooting and the heavy flak began. We didn't let him get to the doorway before stopping him. The ammo was discovered when we sent him back to the unloading table. Match DQ for the ammo. He put his stuff in his vehicle and never saw him again.

 

Another shooter was always what seemed like a "loose cannon". Hard to describe, but we all know that person that describes the word. Last I heard of him, he physically assaulted another shooter (punched him in the face). Never saw him again.

 

With elderly folks whose skills have declined to the point of being considered unsafe due to physical problems or mental acuity problems...I believe that they must be gently consulted and told that it's time to hang up the guns. I've never had to do this, but I think that I may have to...sooner or later. 

 

Like Buckshot Bear, I just hope that when it's my turn for "the talk", that the folks doing the consulting are caring, polite and firm.

 

 

I can only tell you, when I had to talk to Dad about driving, it was really unpleasant and didn't work.  With guns and a stranger, I'd pick my time and place carefully.

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"Once a Man. Twice a Child."

 

Takes an adult to admit reaching child 2.0. Not everyone is adult enough, then, to do so.

 

But we do let fairly little kids shoot our sport. If we use similar methods, and the person stays in the lane, things can probably continue.

 

But at some point, we all will get there. So the culture and methods we make common will be there for us.

 

Respect. Including "it's time"

 

Idea: emeritus class, shot with airsoft.

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On 1/11/2023 at 12:34 PM, Irish-Pat said:

we had a shooter accidentally fire his pistol at the loading table as he was spinning the cylinder checking for high primers,( MDQ). I was at the end of the table at it was right in front of my belly! Another time he tried to shuck his double and sling the empty shell over his shoulder as some guys can do. Well he lost control of the shotgun and hit timer operator with the barrels. I was told he started shooting another club and has had more safety issues.  Have. we ever thought about any kind of listing for people that just aren’t safe? Irish ☘️ Pat 

 

I noticed that most of the replies talked about an older shooter, but I noticed you didn’t say that your person was older.  So, is it an older shooter?  Do they know how to handle the guns safely and just not doing what they’re supposed to?  But as a formal list goes I’ve never heard of goes most times word of mouth goes a long way. 

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8 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

 

I know the shooter who GJ's club banned.  He also was banned from an indoor shooting range.  After shooting a hole in his neighbor's garage he gave up competitive shooting.  I don't know who gave him the message but he is not missed.

I too know of him and he was a real gem of a shooter. Once he was taken aside at the Elephant Butte NM annual match because he was belligerent and acting erratically ( suspected hung over) and that’s the last match I saw him at. He was a sketchy character indeed!  :mellow:

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We had one young man that wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Brought wrong ammo.  Loaded shotgun at loading table. Walk with his long guns like they were a shovel.  Didn't seem to catch on.  He had two things going for him. A wife that carried the mental weight in the family and she enjoyed the game and doing well. And, they were somehow attached to the match director's coattails.   Well,  she got pregnant and with new baby, they dropped out of shooting. 

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18 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

I've never seen or heard of someone being "banned" from shooting CAS around Florida. It wouldn't surprise me if there was such a person. I do know of several instances that merited closer attention, but as far as I know...no action was ever taken. Two examples below.

 

An elderly shooter started appearing "befuddled" and confused over a period of time. He was a very nice person that always tried to help out regardless of his advanced age. At what was evidently, his last match, he had brought full boat .357 factory JHP ammo to the match. I was the TO on the very first stage that he shot that day. The stage was on a boardwalk with a doorway in the middle and windows on either side. The first revolver was through one of the windows at some fairly close targets. He pulled the first revolver, started shooting and the heavy flak began. We didn't let him get to the doorway before stopping him. The ammo was discovered when we sent him back to the unloading table. Match DQ for the ammo. He put his stuff in his vehicle and never saw him again.

 

Another shooter was always what seemed like a "loose cannon". Hard to describe, but we all know that person that describes the word. Last I heard of him, he physically assaulted another shooter (punched him in the face). Never saw him again.

 

With elderly folks whose skills have declined to the point of being considered unsafe due to physical problems or mental acuity problems...I believe that they must be gently consulted and told that it's time to hang up the guns. I've never had to do this, but I think that I may have to...sooner or later. 

 

Like Buckshot Bear, I just hope that when it's my turn for "the talk", that the folks doing the consulting are caring, polite and firm.

 

 

I remember this day. His loading had become an issue so we had a talk with him several weeks prior to this. Everyone offered to load ammo for him but he was too proud to take anyone up on the offer and decided to just buy his ammo instead. He then purchased that dreaded ammo and came to the match. Funny thing was he usually only shot 2 or 3 stages and an went home when he tired. He wasn't "unsafe" where he dropped guns or pointed them at others etc. He was just a little unsteady occasionally and would get foggy with the stage instructions so you sometimes had to guide him through. That day he let loose with those full load 357s and IIRC, you Sun, got hit by the shrapnel all the way in the back of the stage, the farthest from the firing line. He knew right there himself that he was done shooting. He grossly apologized, packed his stuff up, and was never seen again. It was a sad day because you couldn't find a nicer man who worked harder than 3 people half his age. That was 10+ years ago and he was well into his 80s then. God Bless you Al,  wherever you are today, it was fun shooting with you. 

 

JEL

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2 hours ago, John E. Law said:

I remember this day. His loading had become an issue so we had a talk with him several weeks prior to this. Everyone offered to load ammo for him but he was too proud to take anyone up on the offer and decided to just buy his ammo instead. He then purchased that dreaded ammo and came to the match. Funny thing was he usually only shot 2 or 3 stages and an went home when he tired. He wasn't "unsafe" where he dropped guns or pointed them at others etc. He was just a little unsteady occasionally and would get foggy with the stage instructions so you sometimes had to guide him through. That day he let loose with those full load 357s and IIRC, you Sun, got hit by the shrapnel all the way in the back of the stage, the farthest from the firing line. He knew right there himself that he was done shooting. He grossly apologized, packed his stuff up, and was never seen again. It was a sad day because you couldn't find a nicer man who worked harder than 3 people half his age. That was 10+ years ago and he was well into his 80s then. God Bless you Al,  wherever you are today, it was fun shooting with you. 

 

JEL

 

Actually, I was timing him and got copper jacket shrapnel in both arms and my face. Al was a real nice person. It was a damn shame that he had to hang up his guns. I just wish he could have "retired" gracefully instead of with a MDQ. I too hope that wherever he is now that he is in comfort and pain free.

 

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only witnessed one MDQ - it was a kid that dropped a revolver and his dad called hun out ........".he needed the lesson".....was the statement made , im really sorry to hear there are so many problem shooters around , if i ever get careless ill just quit shooting altogether , ive always found this to be what i considered the safest venue 

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On 1/14/2023 at 10:54 AM, Cypress Sun said:

 

Actually, I was timing him and got copper jacket shrapnel in both arms and my face. Al was a real nice person. It was a damn shame that he had to hang up his guns. I just wish he could have "retired" gracefully instead of with a MDQ. I too hope that wherever he is now that he is in comfort and pain free.

 

I'm afraid we have a shooter how is either already at this point, or very very close.  Part of the challenge is that his issue is mental, not physical.  He makes me extremely nervous to the point that I don't want to be on the stage while he's loading or shooting.  At some point someone will have to 'bell the cat,' probably the MD.

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Although I know of a person that was banned from several clubs, the information was shared quietly via the match directors so as to not create further problems, personal issues, or unneeded embarrassment.  Around here at least, the vast majority of folks that are reaching the end of their shooting career, know it's coming, and take themselves out of the game before something bad happens.  We have lost a great many shooters over the last 5+ years that just faded away from the sport.

 

The reality is that I see more shooters removing themselves from the game because they are no longer able to compete at the top of their game than because they are unable or unsafe.  Having lost the competitiveness that kept them in it, they lose interest and choose to not participate at a lower level.  Most of them could continue to shoot for years, but they lost some of their personal enjoyment when they lost that competitiveness.  (Since I never had it, I've got nothing to lose :rolleyes: so you guys are stuck with me for the long haul! :P)

 

I do try to keep in contact with those that have hung them up and encourage them to come to either a match or to our State Match as a Conventioneer and just hang out  Many of these folks tend to drop all contact with their Cowboy Pards when their health goes sideways or they hang their guns and as a result lose contact with what should be lifelong friends.  This at least gives them a chance to hang out, wear their Cowboy Hat, and visit with friends, something a lot of older folks need and enjoy.  Most of these are the folks that had already been doing this for 10 years when I started 20 years ago.  I just wish more of them would participate doing that.  Not only do I think it would do them a lot of good but it is always great hearing stories about "How It Used To Be" in SASS and some of the stuff that today we would call crazy, but they did it every match.  Alas far too many just seem to fade away. 

 

Recently we had a few folks show up that didn't find this game until far too late in life to fully enjoy it.  The physical demands of the sport just prevent them from participating safely.  Had a couple of folks get all geared up, spent a whole lot of $$$$, but after just a few matches stopped coming back.  I spent a couple of matches working with each of them individually the unoccupied bays, walking them through the scenarios, but to no avail.  One of them, the most gung-ho if the two, just didn't have the physical ability or stamina to make it through even two stages, the other I think would have been OK after a couple of matches, but he has far too self-critical of his abilities and faded away as well.  I hope he comes back for another go in the spring when we restart, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

 

Bottom line for me at least is that I will continue to work with folks for as long as they can participate safely.  When "Safely" is no longer possible, then I will gently encourage them to either get more training, spend more time practicing, or hang up their guns as appropriate.  We all will get there one day, I just hope that I have the where-with-all to know when it's time to hang them up and participate vicariously via YouTube!

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