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Frederick Jackson Turner

If you had to make do with a 3 firearm inventory....

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13 minutes ago, bgavin said:


#8 AA shotshells are not my idea of a defense round because of poor penetration and stopping power.
#00 or #1 is far more effective for this.
 

I'm just curious and don't want to hijack the thread. Although I agree that #00 or #1 probably would be better, why wouldn't even my wimpy CAS loads of 7/8 oz of lead traveling at approximately 1000 fps not have stopping power and be a deterrent? I certainly would be discouraged if hit with one.

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Posted (edited)

One of the reasons  I rarely list a shotgun in threads or questions like this is  I look at scenarios like this as "What can I carry on my person or  in a bag?" as I head to my truck or motorcycle.

 

2 shotgun shells take up about the same room as a 50 round box of .22 LR ammo. I would rather have 50 poppers than 2 Kabooms.

 

When I look at pistol and  rifle ammo I look at weight.

Weight per 100 rounds...somehow forgot to add that...

.22 LR = .75#

9mm 115 grain = 2.6#

45 ACP 230 grain = 5#

5,56 55 grain = 2.7#

.308 165 grains = 5.25#

12 gauge 00 buck = 10.25#

 

# means pound...not "hashtag" (that stupid euro name)

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748
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Posted (edited)

I'm gonna work on the assumption that this is limited to weapons I already own

Shotgun is easy. 12 ga. pump. Any of my three would work.

Rifle is a little tougher. I guess PTR-91 (an American made HK-91 .308). Would work for hunting or defense.

Pistol would be tougher still. I'd be torn between a 1911 .45, a .357 Mag DA, or Beretta 92 9mm. I'd probably take the Beretta for it's capacity, accuracy, relatively light weight, and ammo supply for the 9 if TSHTF. It's also my wife's fave and she shoots and handles it quite well.

 

JHC

Edited by Capt. James H. Callahan

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Winchester M-70 In .300 WSM , 2X7 Scope  with that Big Claw Extractor ...

Husky Drilling  16 ga. Side By side with 9.3 x57 R  under the Two 16 barrels are fired by outside Hammers ...

And bottom barrel is fired with the back trigger after the Side lever is cocked ... Barrel lenght is 24.5 inches ...

CZ Bolt Action Rifle in .22 Long Rifle ...

 

I live in the Country so my choices are likely different from City Folk ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

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I've never really understood the craze for 00 buck. I keep #4 buck mostly because there are about 3x more pellets per round, .24 cal (#4B) vs .33 cal for 00.

Just my preference I guess.

JHC

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15 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I'm just curious and don't want to hijack the thread. Although I agree that #00 or #1 probably would be better, why wouldn't even my wimpy CAS loads of 7/8 oz of lead traveling at approximately 1000 fps not have stopping power and be a deterrent? I certainly would be discouraged if hit with one.


FBI studies show there is little stopping power and penetration with fine shot.
Heavy denim or leather can be a substantial obstacle.
#1 is the most lethal, according to their studies, because it does the most wide spread damage.
16 pellets of 0.30 caliber, 648 grains at 1250 fps is quite effective with a muzzle energy of 1250 ft lbs.

In my mind "Discouraged" in a home defense situation is where the bad guy goes down and stays down.
Here in the PRK, as it deteriorates further I believe the risk will be car jackings and home invasions.

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Posted (edited)

4".357 revolver- you can teach a kid to shoot, carry it for self defense or make meat with it.

 

12 gauge repeating shotgun- you can hunt anything with it and use it for defense.

 

A mid-bore rifle- it gives you a longer reach but is still of a reasonable size and power to keep it maneuverable and the recoil manageable.

 

If you add a 4th, then a .22 rifle gets added.

Edited by Smuteye John SASS#24774
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AR in .556/.223

1911 .45 ACP

Pump 12 gauge

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49 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I'm just curious and don't want to hijack the thread. Although I agree that #00 or #1 probably would be better, why wouldn't even my wimpy CAS loads of 7/8 oz of lead traveling at approximately 1000 fps not have stopping power and be a deterrent? I certainly would be discouraged if hit with one.

Drugs.  When someone is methed out, incapacitation is required.  Discouraged doesn’t matter because their rational mind isn’t in control.

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42 minutes ago, bgavin said:


FBI studies show there is little stopping power and penetration with fine shot.
Heavy denim or leather can be a substantial obstacle.
#1 is the most lethal, according to their studies, because it does the most wide spread damage.
16 pellets of 0.30 caliber, 648 grains at 1250 fps is quite effective with a muzzle energy of 1250 ft lbs.

In my mind "Discouraged" in a home defense situation is where the bad guy goes down and stays down.
Here in the PRK, as it deteriorates further I believe the risk will be car jackings and home invasions.

I think that would depend on the range. At a few feet I don't know it would make much difference. When I was a button we had a dead fridge at our farm. One day I shot it with a .410, then a 12 ga, both with birdshot. Range was close, 10-15 feet maybe. .410 made a dent and blew the paint off. 12 ga blew a hole in it probably a bit smaller than a baseball.

FWIW, JHC

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Posted (edited)

AR15 with a .22 lr conversion kit

12 ga pump

1911

Plenty of quality manufacturers of those models. I’m not hooked on makers.

Edited by Utah Bob #35998

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Only three guns? Ok here would be my choice

 

Colt SAA, John Adams fully engraved with antique nickel finish, hand carved and checkered ivory stocks. 
 

Shiloh Sharps 45-70, real cch, upgraded wood with hand rubbed oil finish and MVA long range sights. 
 

Original 10 gauge Greener double barrel shotgun. 
 

Those three guns have a  combined value larger than all the rest in my safe and are also much harder to replace. 

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In retrospect, I should have mentioned that I'd likely not be alone and with similar armament, three others would probably be armed in similar fashion. There are enough shotguns in the family that are modern enough to handle multiple varieties of 12ga. ammo. The second Para pistol would be handed off to one of those other family members and there are another pistol that handles the same magazines and a fourth that shoots .40 S&W. There are two more rifles of nearly the same quality and versatility as my AK, both outfitted the same as the AK and capable of, (and equipped with) 75 round drum magazines as well as numerous 20 and thirty round magazines that interchange.  And finally, a Mossberg 715 in .22lr that uses 25 round magazines for our youngest member.

 

If you're dealing with one of us, you probably are facing all four!!  Not the best for any interlopers who are out to make a move or are up to no good!! 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

I'm just curious and don't want to hijack the thread. Although I agree that #00 or #1 probably would be better, why wouldn't even my wimpy CAS loads of 7/8 oz of lead traveling at approximately 1000 fps not have stopping power and be a deterrent? I certainly would be discouraged if hit with one.

 

4 hours ago, bgavin said:


FBI studies show there is little stopping power and penetration with fine shot.
Heavy denim or leather can be a substantial obstacle.
#1 is the most lethal, according to their studies, because it does the most wide spread damage.
16 pellets of 0.30 caliber, 648 grains at 1250 fps is quite effective with a muzzle energy of 1250 ft lbs.

In my mind "Discouraged" in a home defense situation is where the bad guy goes down and stays down.
Here in the PRK, as it deteriorates further I believe the risk will be car jackings and home invasions.

 

4 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

Drugs.  When someone is methed out, incapacitation is required.  Discouraged doesn’t matter because their rational mind isn’t in control.

 

I found this enlightening. At the ranges one would encounter in their home, I think #8 would be a reasonably effective choice. Move to #4, and... Well... (start around the 7:30 mark to get to the guts of the matter)
 

 

Edited by DocWard
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Posted (edited)
On 4/2/2020 at 6:25 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

ONLY 3:

 

1. Deuce

2. Missouri Lefty

3. Matt Black

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Bud would have to be on that list.  One of these days you'll have to get me to tell you the story of the 25 yard prairie dog and the unloading table at the first W3G match in Puru... 

 

Tough call.  For sure a 1911 in 45ACP, and not a compact.  After that it gets tricky for me.  I'd want something big for hunting large game.  Maybe my Sako in 7mm rem mag.  Then something smaller, maybe a Ruger 10/22, with that you can take birds on the ground and other game.  I think for me it would depend on the situation.  Zombie apocalypse?  Then an AR for sure.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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Posted (edited)
On 4/2/2020 at 8:25 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

ONLY 3:

 

1. Deuce

2. Missouri Lefty

3. Matt Black

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Not bad!

 

But I think I might take:

1. Fire ‘n’ Fallback

2. Cleve 

3. Let’s Go

 

:FlagAm: :ph34r:

Edited by Blackwater 53393

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Wow, this is a tough call. If I’m alone, it would have to be:

> Remington 870 12 ga. with 28” multi choke barrel, and either 18” RS or 18” bead barrel. Very versatile. 

> Either my GP-100 Match Champion or my trusty S&W Mod. 13-3”, both in .357/38. Also very versatile.

> My Ruger GSR in .308. Versatility as well, with the original scout platform, open sights or traditional 3-9x40 scope. Also magazine fed for quick reloads if necessary.

Ammunition wise, various small game shot, RS, and either00-B or 1-B for close home defense. In .357/38, everything from light wad cutters for small game on the low end, up to heavyweight 187 gr. high velocity magnums for heavy game on the extreme high side, and 125 gr. Magnum loads for personal defense. In .308, 168 gr. BTHP for long range hunting and defense.

If things are really bad socially/ politically, I will use whatever ammo I have on hand, or whatever I can scrounge or barter for. Beggars can’t be choosers...

If Jeanette is with me, and she can have 3 guns as well:

> Her S&W 649 in 38/357-same ammo choices.

> Marlin 94 carbine in 38/357- same as above.

> Henry 22 lever rifle 

Hopefully, it’ll never come down to this...

 

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14 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

Bud would have to be on that list.  One of these days you'll have to get me to tell you the story of the 25 yard prairie dog and the unloading table at the first W3G match in Puru... 

 

Tough call.  For sure a 1911 in 45ACP, and not a compact.  After that it gets tricky for me.  I'd want something big for hunting large game.  Maybe my Sako in 7mm rem mag.  Then something smaller, maybe a Ruger 10/22, with that you can take birds on the ground and other game.  I think for me it would depend on the situation.  Zombie apocalypse?  Then an AR for sure.

Howdy Doc. Long time no see, figgered the hogs musta et ya. Tell Bottles what you want, I'll buy us a drink.

JHC

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On 2/28/2020 at 8:11 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Prof.,  

here is their address:

 

DREMEL

4915  21st Street

Racine,  WI   53406

 

If you need to call them (which I never have), here is their number:

800 / 437-3635

 

..........Widder

 

 

On 4/2/2020 at 7:50 PM, Frederick Jackson Turner said:

What would you choose, and why?

Your answer might vary, based on location, terrain, population, and training.

Perhaps you should include a .22 LR in the kit.  If so;  Pistol or Rifle? 

Ubiquity and versatility will also play a role.  .38/.357?  9mm?  .45 ACP?  10 mm?  .44 Magnum?

Shotgun is a likely choice –  but the ammunition is so bulky and heavy.

Perhaps a rifle.  Lever, bolt, or semi-auto?  If so, which caliber?  .223?  .308?  .30-30?  .30-06?

This is a brain teaser,  and Jeff and I will be discussing this very topic on The Gunslinger Hour, this coming Sunday morning, April 5, from 7:00-8:00 a.m., on 790 AM, KABC.  Feel free to call in with your thoughts or comments, at 1(800) 222-5222,  1 (800) KABC, or just listen in.

The show is also available as a podcast, posted the following Monday, on the KABC website.

https://www.kabc.com/the-gunslinger-hour/

Cheers!

FJT

 

 

looking forward to the show! Since this is the SASS forum I will start in the period and specify a brace of Colts, (Peacemakers of course) in .44-40, both with barrels at 5 1/2 inches and a longer barreled Winchester ‘92 or a Marlin also in .44-40. I want common ammunition for economy and ease of logistics. These will take care of anything I need to shoot. This combination, and an adequate supply of ammunition can be carried on the person and provides defense, small and mid-sized game hunting capability. I could get by today with modern equivalents, substituting Rugers for the Colts.

 

 

In the modern era, as much as it pains me to not have a 1911, I would go with a Glock 19, an AR with a red dot and a quality 22 bolt action with a scope. Since these each use magazines which keeps the ammunition organized I will forgo the convenience of shared calibers for firepower and versatility. Suppressors for the AR and .22 would be nice to have but not essential. The 9mm and the .5.56 are smallish making it easy to carry on the person adequate ammunition. They are adequate for defense and the AR will take small and midsized game at reasonable ranges. The .22 adds economy, ability to transport a large number or founds with pout a significant weight penalty, and offers a quieter small game hunting option.

 

If a fourth gun was permitted; in the cowboy era it would be a pocket gun, In the modern era a shotgun. 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/3/2020 at 11:50 AM, Sixgun Seamus said:

I'm just curious and don't want to hijack the thread. Although I agree that #00 or #1 probably would be better, why wouldn't even my wimpy CAS loads of 7/8 oz of lead traveling at approximately 1000 fps not have stopping power and be a deterrent? I certainly would be discouraged if hit with one.

I agree 100%, someone did a test of #7 or 8 shot at fairly close range like in your house and proved to be pretty darn lethal! 

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16 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

Not bad!

 

But I think I might take:

1. Fire ‘n’ Fallback

2. Cleve 

3. Let’s Go

 

:FlagAm: :ph34r:

 

Not a bad choice either..... but one of them is slow.  :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Savage 99 in .250-3000

Winchester 12 in 16 gauge

1911 in .38 Super.

 

So whoever kills me will spend the rest of their life looking for ammo.

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19 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Not a bad choice either..... but one of them is slow.  :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

Old age and treachery will usually overcome youth and speed!!

 

’Sperience is the key!  :ph34r: B)

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For modern defense purposes?

AR15

Glock 9mm

12 ga pump

 

Should solve about anything.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I agree 100%, someone did a test of #7 or 8 shot at fairly close range like in your house and proved to be pretty darn lethal! 

 

A friend of mine didn't have any ammo for his pump shotgun. I told him that I'd give him a box. I had a couple of boxes of 00, 1 box of #4, a couple of boxes of #7 high brass and a BUNCH of light load (cowboy) #7 and 8's. I gave him the high brass #7's. At close range, they WILL ruin your day.

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6 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

A friend of mine didn't have any ammo for his pump shotgun. I told him that I'd give him a box. I had a couple of boxes of 00, 1 box of #4, a couple of boxes of #7 high brass and a BUNCH of light load (cowboy) #7 and 8's. I gave him the high brass #7's. At close range, they WILL ruin your day.

 

And they can ruin your shoulder also, if you ain't ready for that blast.    Personally, I love it.

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/3/2020 at 4:11 PM, DocWard said:

 

I found this enlightening. At the ranges one would encounter in their home, I think #8 would be a reasonably effective choice. Move to #4, and... Well... (start around the 7:30 mark to get to the guts of the matter)

 

Mr. Harrell makes some great informative videos.  This video is informative, but less relevant to me.  A long shotgun would not be an option with the small rooms, doorways and hallways of my home, that would be handgun duty.  A shotgun would be perimeter defense, needing to be disabling at 40 yards.  Remember an edged weapon is considered lethal from 20 feet.  This test at 15 feet is already a fail for allowing the assailant to get that close.

Edited by sassnetguy50

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1 hour ago, sassnetguy50 said:

Mr. Harrell makes some great informative videos.  This video is informative, but less relevant to me.  A long shotgun would not be an option with the small rooms, doorways and hallways of my home, that would be handgun duty.  A shotgun would be perimeter defense, needing to be disabling at 40 yards.  Remember an edged weapon is considered lethal from 20 feet.  This test at 15 feet is already a fail for allowing the assailant to get that close.

 

When it comes to home defense, so long as you realize that it is more relevant to others, then I would agree, and reasonable minds can examine the problem and come up with equally viable answers. We each need to make our decisions for our home defense based upon our strengths, our environment and our subjective comfort level with various firearms. 

 

A couple of thoughts, though:

 

An 870 or 500 with 18.5" barrel isn't a terribly long shotgun. A coach gun is even shorter. Some people don't feel confident in their abilities to utilize a handgun, worry about over penetration, or have other reasons to prefer a shotgun.

 

Home defense to me means inside the home. The longest line of sight distance in my house is just a bit over 25 feet. Most is much less. Fifteen feet is not an unlikely distance to encounter inside the home. If I were shooting forty yards in any direction except straight back on my 1+ acre of land, I would be shooting onto my neighbors' properties. I don't think I can claim castle doctrine at that point.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary.

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Posted (edited)

Not sure I could pare it down to three as circumstances dictate the selection. But I can get it down to 4 from my virtual collection. IMHO these meet the basic criteria for home defense and putting food on the table.

 

M1 Garand

.45 Colt 1911*

12 Gauge Remmie 1100

.22 Mossberg -- https://peashooter85.tumblr.com/post/82243732775/the-mossberg-model-42m-b-lend-lease-22-caliber

 

*Might swap that for an M1 Carbine, but ammo is not commonly available

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783
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If I had to hunker down in my house for an extended time:            12 ga. pump

                                                                                                                           308 bolt action rifle

                                                                                                                           AR 15 .223

 

If I had to hit the road, carry stuff, and hunt for food :                       308 bolt action rifle

                                                                                                                          Ruger 10/22 break down

                                                                                                                          357 wheel gun

 

I want guns with calibers that I can find ammo easily. We live in open country, not an urban area. Hiking with weighty gear at higher elevations will take a toll.

I'd keep things light. 

 

 

 

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@Frederick Jackson Turner, I listened to the show this morning via streaming on my computer. Good stuff. My jaw dropped when I heard it takes to pieces of paper for each manufacturer, type and caliber of ammo. Makes me appreciate living in Ohio all the more. Oh, I will definitely need to work on my bug out kit. 

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1911 Lightweight in .45 ACP

Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 ACP

Mossberg MVP Patrol in .223

 

The weight of shotgun ammo negates its practicality.  Anything defense wise that it could do, could be done with the MCC .45.

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Oh the horror! Even my "Training wife" allowed me to have 10 guns in the house!!!!

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