Horror Stories at RO1 Class

[Stump Water]

41 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Maybe back when a closed lever meant +10 seconds?

 

Correct.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

It’s not just the TO. I’ve seen shooters surrounded by spotters who are their friends. They then colluded to undercount misses, or call it clean when clearly there were misses. I wasn’t a spotter so I couldn’t disagree with the calls. Benefit of the doubt can also be abused. 
 

I wasn’t sure this was happening at first until I saw it happen several times. Another on my posse agreed. After that, the TO and posse marshal made sure that gang was broken up. 
 

The sad part is one of them is a nationally known top shooter. 

[Fordyce Beals]

I saw the T.O. timing for his wife in a train wreck stage show the timer to the score keeper and record a quick time for the stage.  The back button on the timer was my best guess as to what happened.  Later the wife bragged about how the Remington style bronze trophy looked so good on her desk at work.  Never had them come back to our club after that,  I hope they both felt my glare.  

 

Fordyce Beals

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Why?

Revenge!!

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Luckily for any cheaters, John Wayne wasn't there, because he would have given the cheater a butt kicking.

"Our Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys", and Roy, Gene, Hoppy, Lone Ranger, and all the rest would never cheat.

Very sad to hear about these experiences. 

[Texas Jack Black]

5 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Luckily for any cheaters, John Wayne wasn't there, because he would have given the cheater a butt kicking.

"Our Hero's Have Always Been Cowboys", and Roy, Gene, Hoppy, Lone Ranger, and all the rest would never cheat.

Very sad to hear about these experiences. 

 So I ask what is the solution? More rules will not work.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Maybe it's a training issue.  I know there are clubs who have a new shooter training class.  If they don't know that you are an experienced shooter from another club, and you are just starting to get into CAS, you have to got to an orientation class before you can shoot at their club.  Rules, worth ethics, posse duties, etc., are explained.  Also, recommended new shooters take RO1 class even if they aren't interested in being an RO.

Most important, understanding the "Spirit Of The Game" they want to play.

[ORNERY OAF]

This blows me away, I've handled a big guy who was a jerk and always argued with the to about times and misses. But reading this makes me sad,lol....I never knew how much this happened. I just used to laugh with everyone when I had a horrible stage(not that fast anyway)

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Percentage-wise, there's not many jerks in CAS, but like any other activity of mostly great people, there will be a few.  The nature of communications these days make knowledge of their activities more widely known.  While it is possible that I may run into that sort during a match, I'm certainly not going to worry about it.

[Rip Snorter]

Never had a bad call or disputed one in IPSC or SASS.  I tried USPSA a couple of times.  Had a strong out of town contingent visiting our club, and apparently I was shooting too well.  Their RO stepped across the 180 just in front of my right shoulder and gave me a MDQ for breaking the line.  Shooting longer than the little weasel had lived.  Never broke the rules.  I still pay my dues, but never shot another match.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

2 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

Never had a bad call or disputed one in IPSC or SASS.  I tried USPSA a couple of times.  Had a strong out of town contingent visiting our club, and apparently I was shooting too well.  Their RO stepped across the 180 just in front of my right shoulder and gave me a MDQ for breaking the line.  Shooting longer than the little weasel had lived.  Never broke the rules.  I still pay my dues, but never shot another match.

 

 Did you get the match director involved? The 180 should be relative to the back berm in most cases unless other directions are given. Not relative to the ROs position. If he gets himself out of position (in front of the shooter) it should be a reshoot. That's why you have the match director.

 

You can get shenanigans in any of the games as this discussion shows.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

A few years ago, at a major match, we set up the final shoot out stage for the next day. We laid out a grid so that both stages would be exactly the same for the competitors because, at previous matches, some competitors complained that one stage had better target placement than the other thus giving one shooter an advantage. (In the previous matches, the targets were placed based on the MD pacing off the distances so they were very much the same but not necessarily exact.)

 

Later that evening, a couple shooters that made the final 16 moved the targets to improve their stage movements and shooting times. 

 

Since we had a grid marked out, it was immediately obvious that the targets had been moved. 

 

Granted, they did not know which stage they would draw so everyone had the same advantage, there were some target distances and spacing that did not match even though they tried to duplicate the stages. 

 

Before the shoot out, the targets were moved back to their original positions

 

We assumed it was done to give certain competitors the basis to complain if they did not finish first as they had done in the past.

 

Who did it was never proven though we were pretty sure who it was.

 

At the beginning of the shoot out, the MD announced that anyone caught moving targets in the future would be match DQ'd.

 

 

[Texas Jack Black]

6 hours ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

A few years ago, at a major match, we set up the final shoot out stage for the next day. We laid out a grid so that both stages would be exactly the same for the competitors because, at previous matches, some competitors complained that one stage had better target placement than the other thus giving one shooter an advantage. (In the previous matches, the targets were placed based on the MD pacing off the distances so they were very much the same but not necessarily exact.)

 

Later that evening, a couple shooters that made the final 16 moved the targets to improve their stage movements and shooting times. 

 

Since we had a grid marked out, it was immediately obvious that the targets had been moved. 

 

Granted, they did not know which stage they would draw so everyone had the same advantage, there were some target distances and spacing that did not match even though they tried to duplicate the stages. 

 

Before the shoot out, the targets were moved back to their original positions

 

We assumed it was done to give certain competitors the basis to complain if they did not finish first as they had done in the past.

 

Who did it was never proven though we were pretty sure who it was.

 

At the beginning of the shoot out, the MD announced that anyone caught moving targets in the future would be match DQ'd.

 

 

 Have seen this at many times at large shoots where the  Ros ,,officials etc. shoot the day before  .Targets were brought in shot then set back out for the rest of the shooters. This has gotten worse over the years . I watch as groups of friends show up  shoot on the same posse spot for each other etc. This  only helps ruin the game.

 

Best wishes

 

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

When we teach ROI we talk about what a buddy posse is. We shot with a buddy posse at EOT in Indiana.   When certain shooters were shooting only their friends would spot and can be a TO.  They had one fast shooter who got a re-shoot because of interference?? When he shot again I stood near a “spotter “and witness that he missed a target and he was awarded a clean stage.  The PM and his deputy where in the group of “buddies” so they would assign jobs. The sad part is it just not one person doing something unethical but a group!!

 

Nawlins

[Black Hills Barb]

In 24 years we've banned only 2 shooters from our club. Both for their attitudes during our state match and for their arguments over calls and disputes with the RO and/or MD.  The first one came on here to claim a bad call, but you folks saw it for the bag of lies he was posting and caught the discrepancies from one post to another.  He ended up not only banned from the club but also banned from the Wire.  The 2nd one had a habit of bullying his way into having calls reversed.  That attitude rarely proves effective anyhow.  He was banned from a few clubs over the course of a year or two.  It's sad that it happens but in the whole scheme of things the good people far outweigh the bad and the bad don't seem to last long in our game.

[Hoss]

When I’m TOing or PM, I try to do anything I can to not give a penalty. But if the penalty is earned, I call it. Not calling an earned penalty on 1 shooter is giving every other shooter at the match a penalty. Given that the very top shooters, over course of a 10 stage match, rarely have more than a couple seconds difference, a 5 second penalty is huge. TO/PM has a responsibility to the rest of the shooters as well as those on his own posse. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Worked a big match in the SE several years ago and was a Berm Marshal but had TO duties for all of the posses coming through my stage. Had a group come through from a certain state and they informed me that THEY would take care of all the duties for the stage. Yes, there was some observed (by me) improprieties as they shot the stage. There was also a current national champ from Texas with them that would not do any duties... shameful. I still have a sour taste in my mouth for that group; too bad too because there are some really great folks from there.

[Matthew Duncan]

On 7/30/2023 at 8:30 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

As a TO I count the number of rounds fired from each gun. Spotters should also be doing this.

 

As a MD if I was informed that this was occuring that individual would earn a MDQ. 

 

 

Your younger eyes and hearing are considerably better than my old ones. Baang and they are done with a firearm.  Guess that's why I don't TO or Spot for the blur Shooters. 

[Matthew Duncan]

SASS has so many rules because too many Cowpokes refuse to follow the original Ten Commandments. 

[July Smith]

Never seen any of the above described things.  But then again I don't get out much.  About the worst thing I can add is spotters not caring about the Cody Dixon patterns.  As a spotter I always try to do my best and just call it how I see it, I also try to keep track of which shot was the miss or P.  I have noticed a lot of people tend to screw up with either their first or last shot from the second pistol.  

[Tequila Shooter]

The most egregious thing I personally saw was at a major match.  Female shooter, walked away from the loading table with loaded pistols holstered, had a clean match going.  I pointed it out to her, she said she didn’t realize, never called the penalty on herself, MD was on the posse (and her husband) she went on to get top female shooter.  Lost all respect for her and won’t shoot with her or at her club again. 

[Texas Maverick]

14 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Maybe it's a training issue.  I know there are clubs who have a new shooter training class.  If they don't know that you are an experienced shooter from another club, and you are just starting to get into CAS, you have to got to an orientation class before you can shoot at their club.  Rules, worth ethics, posse duties, etc., are explained.  Also, recommended new shooters take RO1 class even if they aren't interested in being an RO.

Most important, understanding the "Spirit Of The Game" they want to play.

I think it is the old saying "Cheaters are gonna cheat". I don't think it is a training issue. Just some want to win at all cost. It is sad way to live in my book.

 

TM

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Worked a big match in the SE several years ago and was a Berm Marshal but had TO duties for all of the posses coming through my stage. Had a group come through from a certain state and they informed me that THEY would take care of all the duties for the stage. Yes, there was some observed (by me) improprieties as they shot the stage. There was also a current national champ from Texas with them that would not do any duties... shameful. I still have a sour taste in my mouth for that group; too bad too because there are some really great folks from there.

 

If a big match has assigned berm marshalls and TOs  that should never have happened. The whole point of assigned, dedicated officials is consistency for all shooters. Again, was the match director involved with deciding to let one special posse officiate themselves? He should be. 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Over the years, we knew of a a couple shooters that we would not let near the scoring sheet.

 

Had one pretty good shooter that did some dodgey stuff and when I called him, his wife got upset.  He had to quickly stop her because he knew he could have been DQ if it went any further.  He later admitted that if he had a bad stage, he would try to bump into the TO.  I was amazed he would so openly admit it.  But he stopped shooting not long after than.

 

One near the top shooter and his wife would try to arrange the posse so that near blind and deaf people would time for them  And they arranged for spotters who tended to over-count misses spot for my friend, another top shooter. 

 

I'm glad to report that they later changed their ways.  I think they realized they didn't want to tarnish their names or valid awards.

 

But when I realizee that I got to shoot at 100's of matches around the nation, that the cheaters were so very few - and eventually pointed out.

[Griff]

16 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 So I ask what is the solution? More rules will not work.

When observed... CALL "EM OUT on their cheatin'!  Cheaters hurt EVERY other shooter at a match... denies the balance of shooters a fair and equitable playing field.  Standing by, watching them and then complaining here only exacerbates the problem.  As Marauder so aptly points out, they are few in number,  think of it this way, do they sign your paycheck?  Very likely not, and even if they did, I wouldn't want to work for them.  And no matter their fame or past accomplishments... what you did last is what folks'll remember.  I've had to make some calls I disliked making... but I dislike cheating other folks out of their right to a fair match even more.  (BTW, the stop watch thing was VERY hard to prove...)  So we have electronic timers now!

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

2 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

If a big match has assigned berm marshalls and TOs  that should never have happened. The whole point of assigned, dedicated officials is consistency for all shooters. Again, was the match director involved with deciding to let one special posse officiate themselves? He should be. 

I was pretty new to TO duties, but I felt I was very concientious and thorough, but mostly consistent and fair. I was so taken aback by their taking-over of the stage, I didn't know if they always did this or were just bullying me. I don't think the MD knew about it, but maybe he did. 

[Tennessee williams]

   They's a whole lot of cheating going on. Why, just the other day I seen somebody using their front sites! Another time, I witnessed with my owndang eyes somebody, get this now, he slowed down a hair to make sure he didn't miss! Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

  Jokes aside, I have a zero tolerance for cheatin'. 1 and 2 in the OP is cheating to me. Number 3 would be more of a dumb brain fart that breaks a safety rule. Or they just don't know they have to be at 45° before cocking. You'd be surprised.

 

[Tyrel Cody]

7 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

   They's a whole lot of cheating going on. Why, just the other day I seen somebody using their front sites! Another time, I witnessed with my owndang eyes somebody, get this now, he slowed down a hair to make sure he didn't miss! Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

 

 

Right?!

 

Can you believe folks use that heathen smokeyless stuff so they can actually see the targets?

 

Actually I did slow down on the last stage at TN State to preserve a no miss/no penalty/no msv match (I just can't call it a clean match).

 

 

 

 

Cheaters should be called out and shamed. 

[Cypress Sun]

3 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

If a big match has assigned berm marshalls and TOs  that should never have happened. The whole point of assigned, dedicated officials is consistency for all shooters. Again, was the match director involved with deciding to let one special posse officiate themselves? He should be. 

 

Berm marshalls have been known to help the situation...or exacerbate the problem. In the end it's really about who has integrity and who doesn't.

 

No one outside of CAS/SASS and only a few of CAS/SASS participants give a rats ass about someone's trophy, ribbon, wall plaque or belt buckle...it's amazing what extremes people will do to acquire them.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

It was an edge hit!

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:01 PM, Hoss said:

I had a train wreck on a stage at a regional match one year.

It was a local match.    Stages 1-4 were clean.  Stage 5 was a real train wreck for me.   I don't remember exactly what happened, but I lost the clean match, and I'd also had very good, for me, times on the first 4 stages.

On Stage 6, instead of whatever the line was, I said, "My previous stage was a train wreck!"   At the beep, I started to sing The Wabash Cannonball as I slowly and deliberately shot the stage clean.    Everybody laughed, and I had fun.

I think some people have forgotten that this is a GAME.   Sometimes, even the best of us don't do so well.  That's just the way it goes.  Sure, those in the "top tier" want to win, but even when they do their best, the don't always win.   I think all of us need remember that, win, lose or whatever, we do this for fun.  Sad that some have apparently lost sight of that.

[Hoss]

5 hours ago, July Smith said:

Never seen any of the above described things.  But then again I don't get out much.  About the worst thing I can add is spotters not caring about the Cody Dixon patterns.  As a spotter I always try to do my best and just call it how I see it, I also try to keep track of which shot was the miss or P.  I have noticed a lot of people tend to screw up with either their first or last shot from the second pistol.  

When shooting Cody Dixon, if anyone asks before I shoot what the patent is I always tell them “however I shoot it”

[Eyesa Horg]

Saw a Pard come up to the ULT with a live round in the carrier. He dumped it on the sand and put his foot over it. 3 of us saw it and called him out. He finally came clean when it escalated to the MD.

I once at a State match forgot to go to the ULT, knew sumpin was wrong when I got to my cart. Stood there for a bit and finally put the long guns in the cart. Reached for my brass bag, that I always hang on the hammer of my pistol. Uh Oh, no brass!! Picked up the long guns and went to ULT and took care of it and off to the RO to get my SDQ, bummer. Then, I'm glad I can't remember whom, told me I should have just gone to the PortaPottie and unloaded my pistols! 

[Texas Jack Black]

8 hours ago, Black Hills Barb said:

In 24 years we've banned only 2 shooters from our club. Both for their attitudes during our state match and for their arguments over calls and disputes with the RO and/or MD.  The first one came on here to claim a bad call, but you folks saw it for the bag of lies he was posting and caught the discrepancies from one post to another.  He ended up not only banned from the club but also banned from the Wire.  The 2nd one had a habit of bullying his way into having calls reversed.  That attitude rarely proves effective anyhow.  He was banned from a few clubs over the course of a year or two.  It's sad that it happens but in the whole scheme of things the good people far outweigh the bad and the bad don't seem to last long in our game.

 Only takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel.

 

Best Wishes

[Texas Jack Black]

 If only a few cheat why two pages of issues? As they say if you see one mouse  in the barn how many did you not see.

 

Best Wishes