What's the Call - Setting SxS down with action closed prior to starting stage

[Chief Rick]

Somewhere between the loading bench and the staging table for the shotgun, the SxS shotgun closes.

 

What's the call when the shooter sets the shotgun down on the table, in the closed position?

 

If noticed while in transit should the shooter stop, or be told to stop immediately, and be provided assistance?

 

I know this has been discussed before but I can't find it.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Unfortunately once shooter let go of sxs it is the same as hammer cocked on unloaded rifle.  SxS is internally cocked so sadly, to me, it carries same penalty.  Don't like severity of penalty but until changed it is what it is.  At least that is my call.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

But then, do we really know if it is cocked or not.  Maybe just a safety violation.

Good question Rick.

[Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968]

SDQ

 

Initially staging  long gun with the action closed and hammer not fully down. 
 

Point down range pull trigger to see if cocked. 
 

I believe Billie is correct. 
 

Could be corrected if didn’t leave shooter’s hand. 
 

….THE ABOVE ANSWER IS WRONG….

 

 SDQ

 

Moving with a cocked and closed shotgun is the correct answer as pointed out by TW below. 
 

Always help the shooter if possible. 

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

And what if it's a hammered double and the hammers are in the down position and not cocked?

And what if it's a Win. 97 and the action is closed and hammer is down instead of cocked?

Guess I'll just wait for Pale Wolfe.

 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

32 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

And what if it's a hammered double and the hammers are in the down position and not cocked?

And what if it's a Win. 97 and the action is closed and hammer is down instead of cocked?

Guess I'll just wait for Pale Wolfe.

 

Good question also.

[Griff]

Quote

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Shotguns
A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only (some conditions may be corrected before firing the next firearm) :
- Empty.
A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage) in the following conditions only:
- Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.
- Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

Lone Star Jake, there's your answer.  So, now we just need to know if it was a hammered or hammerless.   And whether it's correctable before the first shot downrange.  It it was the rifle it woould be.  

[Tennessee williams]

SDQ was earned as soon as the shooter "moved with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer ccocked (except for rifle from the loading table to the stage before leaving shooters hands) . 

Pg. 22 shb

[Flying W Ramrod]

Once the shotgun closes, the shooter must stop and open it again. The rule for transporting a cocked long gun from the loading table to the stage is only for the Rifle.

The Shotgun closes and you continue to walk, is a SDQ.

Misty said she was going to check on the, actual, motion voted on at the TG meeting, to see if it was "long guns" or just "rifle". If it was "long guns" she was going to change the rule to reflect Shotgun and Rifle. That was at EOT. Things happen and this probably go put on the back burner.

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

A shotgun isn't a long gun?

[John Kloehr]

13 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Somewhere between the loading bench and the staging table for the shotgun, the SxS shotgun closes.

 

Transporting at a match. Long guns must have action open.

 

13 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

What's the call when the shooter sets the shotgun down on the table, in the closed position?

 

Wrong question. Too late. And I have run out of time to find the penalty in the rules.

 

13 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

If noticed while in transit should the shooter stop, or be told to stop immediately, and be provided assistance?

 

Yes.

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

SDQ

Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered).

 

SHB page 22.

[John Kloehr]

42 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SDQ

Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked (exception for rifle from the loading table to the stage with no round chambered).

 

SHB page 22.

Agree.

 

Also noted when one SDQ leads directly to another, only one SDQ assessed. Setting the gun down closed resulted directly from transporting with the action closed so only one SDQ.

 

It would be a no call if the action closed as the shooter was setting the shotgun down but did not let go of it before correcting the problem.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

You mean to say nobody saw this starting from loading table to where the shotgun was placed on stage table? Mercy we are all safety officers in this and the whoever called the shooter from the loading table to enter stage area should have seen this. Come on who really is to blame????????  Come on give us a break folks.! And besides this the timer operator who calls the shooter to enter the stage area should have caught this along with the shooter who places the firearm down on the tables. Sometimes the shot gun will close when shooter picks it up and closes on the way to stage area.  Also, if you want to be a timer operator than by gosh pay attention. Is the shooter properly equipped? 

Have a great day pilgrims!

[Tucker McNeely]

I think somewhere in my RO1 & 2 training it mentioned don’t be a hard ass.

 

1. the ULT officer has verified the long guns clear as the shooter approached and entered the firing line. Therefore the long guns are in the proper configuration.  If you are the timer operator and are okay with no ULT then assist the shooter because you accepted the fact you do not have an ULT officer.   Expect what you inspect.
 

2. I signed onboard the movement to remove the penalty of coming to the line with a cocked rifle for two reasons. First reason is #1 above.  Second reason is folks put a lot of time and money into attending big shoots.  Big shoots are the best way for us to advertise our sport. If we look for reasons to penalize every shooter above providing an experience that retains and attracts shooter, then we are the problem and should understand that we are the problem.  Help our fellow shooters be safe AND fun.  Don’t have them drive home @ $4.00/gallon of fuel questioning why they are doing this on their weekends.  

[Mister Badly]

Everyone talks about personal responsibility but apparently enforcing it is a different matter. It's a valuable learning experience when it costs you something. I once moved to the wrong second shooting location with my 97. Right before I got there I threw a shell in and stopped and as I started to rack it in my TO said move forward. By that time I had a shell in the chamber and the hammer was back. I took two steps, realized what I had done, racked out the shell, picked up my empty rifle and headed to the unloading table. Stage DQ. My fault. Period. Having said that, I think the rifle rule should apply to the shotgun also.

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

1 hour ago, Tucker McNeely said:

I think somewhere in my RO1 & 2 training it mentioned don’t be a hard ass.

Pretty sure it means don't be a hard ass but enforce the rules.

We host a State & Regional Level shoot at our club. It is flabbergasting the number of times shooters break a rule and say they let us get away with it at my club.

Another one is... that is SASS rule? We don't do it that way at my cub. 

Level playing field is everybody playing by the same rules. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

1 hour ago, Tucker McNeely said:

I think somewhere in my RO1 & 2 training it mentioned don’t be a hard ass.

WHILE TRUE, NOT ENFORCING THE RULES IS A WORSE OFFENSE.

1. the ULT officer has verified the long guns clear as the shooter approached and entered the firing line. Therefore the long guns are in the proper configuration.  If you are the timer operator and are okay with no ULT then assist the shooter because you accepted the fact you do not have an ULT officer.   Expect what you inspect.
THE UNLOADING TABLE OFFICER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LOADING TABLE OFFICER AND THEIR DUTIES OF ENSURING THE GUN IS LOADED WITH THE CORRECT NUMBER OF RDS.  THE TO SHOULD BE WATCHING THE SHOOTER FROM THE LT TO THE FIRING LINE EITHER WAY.

2. I signed onboard the movement to remove the penalty of coming to the line with a cocked rifle for two reasons. First reason is #1 above.  Second reason is folks put a lot of time and money into attending big shoots.  Big shoots are the best way for us to advertise our sport. If we look for reasons to penalize every shooter above providing an experience that retains and attracts shooter, then we are the problem and should understand that we are the problem.  Help our fellow shooters be safe AND fun.  Don’t have them drive home @ $4.00/gallon of fuel questioning why they are doing this on their weekends.  

FRANKLY I THINK THE REMOVAL OF THE HAMMER PENALTY WAS A BAD MOVE.  IT WAS NEVER A NIT PICK PENALTY TO CATCH SOMETHING, IT WAS A SAFETY RULE.

 

GIVEN THAT FOLKS SPEND A LOT OF MONEY GOING TO BIG SHOOTS, THEY SHOULD BE ON GAME WHEN ITS THEIR TIME TO PLAY.  REWARDING CARELESSNESS BY OVERLOOKING SAFETY RULES BECAUSE SOMEONE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY IS NOT IN ANYONE'S BEST INTEREST AND ULTIMATELY MAKES EVERYONE LESS SAFE.  YOU SCREW UP, OWN YOUR MISTAKE, SIMPLE AS THAT.

 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

2 hours ago, Jackrabbit Joe #414 said:

You mean to say nobody saw this starting from loading table to where the shotgun was placed on stage table? Mercy we are all safety officers in this and the whoever called the shooter from the loading table to enter stage area should have seen this. Come on who really is to blame????????  Come on give us a break folks.! And besides this the timer operator who calls the shooter to enter the stage area should have caught this along with the shooter who places the firearm down on the tables. Sometimes the shot gun will close when shooter picks it up and closes on the way to stage area.  Also, if you want to be a timer operator than by gosh pay attention. Is the shooter properly equipped? 

Have a great day pilgrims!

Let me add these folks: When the Timer operator calls you ok to enter the stage & he then should observe you placing your guns down at the proper location and observe the proper position for shot gun trigger guard and rifle at the lever position. Then going to starting location of stage and placement of hands to start.

Amen Brothers & Sisters and have a blessed day!

[Hoss]

20 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

But then, do we really know if it is cocked or not.  Maybe just a safety violation.

Good question Rick.

If it has internal hammers, it’s cocked! 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

12 minutes ago, Hoss said:

If it has internal hammers, it’s cocked! 

You bet.  My second thought was that until lever was hit to observe barrels opening or not opening easily, one would only assume, and very likely,  that hammers were cocked.

[Barry Sloe]

So ... I'm moving from the loading table to stage my long guns and the SG swings closed.  Rifle in one hand, SG in the other, who is going to open my SG?

This is another rule that makes no sense whatsoever.  

 

BS

[Snakebite Dust SASS 75484]

19 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

So ... I'm moving from the loading table to stage my long guns and the SG swings closed.  Rifle in one hand, SG in the other, who is going to open my SG?

This is another rule that makes no sense whatsoever.  

 

BS

Agree. Thats why I hate the vertical staging racks after the loading table before you get called to shoot. I even had the mod done on my skb to help it stay open based on this rule.It works 95% of the time

[John Kloehr]

23 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

So ... I'm moving from the loading table to stage my long guns and the SG swings closed.  Rifle in one hand, SG in the other, who is going to open my SG?

This is another rule that makes no sense whatsoever.  

 

BS

It does make sense to me.

 

We don't move our guns bagged or flagged, we move them with actions open. We also load ammo before staging, unlike in sports where guns are bagged or flagged to the line and then loaded.

 

So your shotgun swings closed. It can happen. Stop moving (transporting). Ask for assistance. I'll assume the TO also saw this, as you should not be transporting from the LT to the stage unless the TO called you forward. This is an area where not being a harass comes into play. The TO can hold your rifle while you open your shotty. As long as a shell is not in the chamber, no call. Continue to staging.

[Tequila Shooter]

More clarification is needed, what type of shotgun was being used?  Not that it affects the decision made, or the interpretations of the rule made so far.  IMHO the rule is too vague, and the rule does need to be updated, whether it is cocked is different depending on the shotgun.  A hammered double is very different than an internally hammered one, a model ‘87 is different than a pump style, plus all rifles we use are externally hammered.  So a “one size fits all” rule can’t be applied fairly.  Of course a change this complex can be cumbersome and complicate things if not thought out well. 

[Assassin]

Pretty sure I can open my double without cocking the hammers, it must be fully open in order to clock hammers. Which, in my mind would not be a SDQ. My old Charles Daly 500 can even shuck the shells and not cock the hammers, it must be opened fully. It's a high mileage gun.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

All righty Now!!  Shooter heads for the firing line.  Rifle in one hand, Shotgun in tother.  Someone yells "Open yer Shotgun" shooter complies, dropping his/her rifle and opens the shotgun.  Leans down to pick up the rifle and sweeps the TO AND the Spotters but successfully gets to the line, Shotgun Open.

 

All that is necessary is the shooter continues to the line, stages the rifle, and then opens the shotgun without ever letting go of it.  So long as the shotgun is/was empty, it is/would be considered SAFE.  NO CALL.

 

NOW, if two live rounds drop out of said shotgun, shooter has a really big problem.  As does the inattentive twit on the loading table.

[Tyrel Cody]

1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

All righty Now!!  Shooter heads for the firing line.  Rifle in one hand, Shotgun in tother.  Someone yells "Open yer Shotgun" shooter complies, dropping his/her rifle and opens the shotgun.  Leans down to pick up the rifle and sweeps the TO AND the Spotters but successfully gets to the line, Shotgun Open.

 

All that is necessary is the shooter continues to the line, stages the rifle, and then opens the shotgun without ever letting go of it.  So long as the shotgun is/was empty, it is/would be considered SAFE.  NO CALL.

 

NOW, if two live rounds drop out of said shotgun, shooter has a really big problem.  As does the inattentive twit on the loading table.

Not all matches around here use Loading Table Officers; regardless the blame goes to the twit holding the gun.

[Major Crimes]

 

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

All righty Now!!  Shooter heads for the firing line.  Rifle in one hand, Shotgun in tother.  Someone yells "Open yer Shotgun" shooter complies, dropping his/her rifle and opens the shotgun.  Leans down to pick up the rifle and sweeps the TO AND the Spotters but successfully gets to the line, Shotgun Open.

 

All that is necessary is the shooter continues to the line, stages the rifle, and then opens the shotgun without ever letting go of it.  So long as the shotgun is/was empty, it is/would be considered SAFE.  NO CALL.

 

NOW, if two live rounds drop out of said shotgun, shooter has a really big problem.  As does the inattentive twit on the loading table.

Absolutely incorrect. If you sweep someone with a loaded gun, it's a MDQ SHB pg23

 

[Tennessee williams]

 

Some  examples. The following shotguns being carried muzzle up to or from the stage.

1). 1897 -The shooter carries it by only the forearm and the weight of the gun closes the action. The long gun is now cocked with action closed. It is not safe to move in this condition. SDQ if the shooter continues to move with the hammer back and action closed. 

2). Hammered double -The shooter carries the long gun in such a way it closes on the way to or from the LT or ULT. If the hammers are back and it closes, SDQ if the shooter keeps moving. If the hammers are not back and it closes and they keep moving then no call because it is not cocked and closed.

3). 1887 -Shooter somehow closes the action to or from the LT or ULT with the hammer back. SDQ if the shooter moves with it in that condition. If the hammer is not back, no call because it is not cocked and closed.

4) Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed. ****This can be easily proven or disproven on the course of fire by pointing the sg at the berm and pulling the trigger. If it clicks, it was cocked. If it doesn't, it wasn't.

 

[Hoss]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Some  examples. The following shotguns being carried muzzle up to or from the stage.

1). 1897 -The shooter carries it by only the forearm and the weight of the gun closes the action. The long gun is now cocked with action closed. It is not safe to move in this condition. SDQ if the shooter continues to move with the hammer back and action closed. 

2). Hammered double -The shooter carries the long gun in such a way it closes on the way to or from the LT or ULT. If the hammers are back and it closes, SDQ if the shooter keeps moving. If the hammers are not back and it closes and they keep moving then no call because it is not cocked and closed.

3). 1887 -Shooter somehow closes the action to or from the LT or ULT with the hammer back. SDQ if the shooter moves with it in that condition. If the hammer is not back, no call because it is not cocked and closed.

4) Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed. ****This can be easily proven or disproven on the course of fire by pointing the sg at the berm and pulling the trigger. If it clicks, it was cocked. If it doesn't, it wasn't.

 

Not impossible to open and close a hammerless shotgun without cocking it, but highly unlikely. 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

 

All that is necessary is the shooter continues to the line, stages the rifle, and then opens the shotgun without ever letting go of it.  So long as the shotgun is/was empty, it is/would be considered SAFE.  NO CALL.

 

NOW, if two live rounds drop out of said shotgun, shooter has a really big problem.  As does the inattentive twit on the loading table.

I assume you are commenting on how you think the rules should be because if you are saying what the shooter should do you just got them a SDQ as the rules are written. As we have new shooters reading these posts I think should clarify when we are quoting rules and when we are giving opinions on how we think the rules should be.

 

Randy

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Unfortunately it's a stage DQ .

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

9 hours ago, Hoss said:

Not impossible to open and close a hammerless shotgun without cocking it, but highly unlikely. 

It really doesn't matter if it's "impossible" or not. If it's hammerless and closes, it's considered cocked, for the rules sake.

Don't think I'd want to stand in front of it and find out if it's "cocked" or not.