What's the Call - Setting SxS down with action closed prior to starting stage

[Major Crimes]

7 hours ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

I am thinking we can get at least 4 pages out of this topic.

You're not dreaming big enough, 6 or we are not even trying.

[Too Tall Bob]

Is it winter already.

[Major Crimes]

4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Some examples. The following shotguns being carried muzzle up to or from the stage.

 

1). 1897 -The shooter carries it by only the forearm and the weight of the gun closes the action. The long gun is now cocked with action closed. It is not safe to move in this condition. SDQ if the shooter continues to move with the hammer back and action closed. 

 

2). Hammered double -The shooter carries the long gun in such a way it closes on the way to or from the LT or ULT. If the hammers are back and it closes, SDQ if the shooter keeps moving. If the hammers are not back and it closes and they keep moving then no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

3). 1887 -Shooter somehow closes the action to or from the LT or ULT with the hammer back. SDQ if the shooter moves with it in that condition. If the hammer is not back, no call because it is not cocked and closed.

 

4) Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed. 

 

To the LT? so you are seeing a SDQ for the movement from a member's gun cart to the LT? and from the ULT to the gun cart?

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Is it winter already.

 

Must be the oppressive heat.

[Major Crimes]

Its winter here 

 

Thats 9C (48F) minimum and 20C (68). Tomorrow its 25C (77F).

 

• TODAY 24 Aug
  • 9
  • 20

  Cloud clearing

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

17 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

Its winter here 

 

Thats 9C (48F) minimum and 20C (68). Tomorrow its 25C (77F).

 

• TODAY 24 Aug
  • 9
  • 20

  Cloud clearing

That’s winter? In the US, that’s fall or spring. 

 

What’s the typical temp range at your winter’s peak? Where I live that’s single digits to low 20 degrees F in January to February. Occasionally temps dip below zero. 

[Major Crimes]

38 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

That’s winter? In the US, that’s fall or spring. 

 

What’s the typical temp range at your winter’s peak? Where I live that’s single digits to low 20 degrees F in January to February. Occasionally temps dip below zero. 

Where I live July is the middle of winter and these are the averages.

 

Its a bit hotter than the avg this year

 

• Average Low 2010–Present

  11.2 °C- 52F

• Average 2010–Present

  16.8 °C - 62F

• Average High 2010–Present

  23.7 °C - 74F

[Dantankerous]

I'm hope the environmentalists announce global cooling soon.

[Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L]

3 pages and going strong.

[Shooting Bull]

On 8/22/2023 at 7:25 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Some of y'all seem to be confusing the rules for moving from the LT to the staging point vs. changing location/discarding a long gun "During a Course of Fire".

REF:
SHB pp.15-16 & 22 

 

 

 

 

I'd sure like somebody to address the above because this entire thread has me confused.  It's my understanding that the rules governing shotgun safe for movement apply during the course of fire.  In the OP's example the stage hadn't begun yet.  So the original question still stands, what's the call? (Please reference a specific page in the SHB.) 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

21 hours ago, Crawdaddy said:

Shooter finishes course of fire and heads to the unloading table, somewhere along the way the shotgun closes, shooter arrives at unloading table with closed shotgun, What’s the call?

It’s a Stage DQ.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

I'd sure like somebody to address the above because this entire thread has me confused.  It's my understanding that the rules governing shotgun safe for movement apply during the course of fire.  In the OP's example the stage hadn't begun yet.  So the original question still stands, what's the call? (Please reference a specific page in the SHB.) 

It has been addressed with several references to pages in the handbook, and that some confusion did come into the conversations at some point.

There are rules for transporting guns at a match. Transporting is all movement with firearms when not in the course of fire.

 

What has not been stated is the definition of "course of fire", and I decided to look it up, just for completeness..  And there are two definitions in the rules:

• Page 17, Magnificent 7, fifth bullet point: LT to ULT
• Page 42, Section 9, Glossary of Terms: Timer beep to last shot fired

 

I just found the page 17 reference. All my previous responses were under the page 42 definition. This thread might still have some life in it. I can see reasons for both definitions depending on context.

 

Consider a SxS self-cocking shotgun. Transport requires action open and unloaded. Unloaded means nothing in the chamber. Movement in the course of fire requires action open or hammer down on on expended shells (or empty chambers). I think this is where the cocked gun references apply.

 

Under one definition (page 42), the gun was being transported (SDQ because transport with action closed). 

 

Under the page 17 definition, the gun was being moved. The chambers are presumably empty. My Stoeger would have internal hammers cocked when closed after opening. Gee, it is still an SDQ because of movement with cocked hammers, not transport with closed action.

 

So same penalty, but different rules. And both have the same fix to avoid penalty. Stop. Don't take a step.

 

But now I am aware there are two definitions of CoF. It explains at least some of the confusion earlier in this thread.

 

And keeping up with where this thread is going, the high today will be 90, with a good chance of a thunderstorm out of the north this afternoon.

[Major Crimes]

6 hours ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

3 pages and going strong.

I did my bit with the weather sub plot. 

5 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

I'd sure like somebody to address the above because this entire thread has me confused.  It's my understanding that the rules governing shotgun safe for movement apply during the course of fire.  In the OP's example the stage hadn't begun yet.  So the original question still stands, what's the call? (Please reference a specific page in the SHB.) 

watch the video.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

19 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

I did my bit with the weather sub plot. 

Best part of the thread! 

[Tennessee williams]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:41 PM, Major Crimes said:

 

To the LT? so you are seeing a SDQ for the movement from a member's gun cart to the LT? and from the ULT to the gun cart?

Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed.

 

In the above, I would have been more clear if I had said from and to. 

But...I still ain't gonna have anyone walking around the range with a closed shotgun. I remember hearing an awful lot of "muzzles up and action open." I don't know if they have shells in it or not and it may be a long way to my truck

I guess I could scour the books. Could be unsafe gun handling. Or reckless walking.

[John Kloehr]

21 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Hammerless double- Shooter is moving to or from the LT or ULT and the shotgun closes. SDQ if it is cocked and closed.

To and from cart, the rule is open and unloaded. I can not find anything in the rules for cocked if not in the CoF. If closed, don't move and correct the condition.

 

In the CoF, it must be hammer down on spent shells or empty chambers, or open. Cocked and closed means don't move, correct the condition.

 

And that brings back my new question. What is the definition of the CoF? What are the rules between LT and staging, and after last shot to the ULT. Depends on if this distance is part of the CoF or not.

 

The rules have both definitions. Beep to last shot, and LT to ULT.

 

On edit: Threaded between the thunderstorms, ran some rounds in my carry as I have skipped a cleaning and was curious if it still ran. It did, It gets a good cleaning in the morning.

[Tennessee williams]

2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

To and from cart, the rule is open and unloaded. I can not find anything in the rules for cocked if not in the CoF. If closed, don't move and correct the condition.

 

In the CoF, it must be hammer down on spent shells or empty chambers, or open. Cocked and closed means don't move, correct the condition.

 

And that brings back my new question. What is the definition of the CoF? What are the rules between LT and staging, and after last shot to the ULT. Depends on if this distance is part of the CoF or not.

 

The rules have both definitions. Beep to last shot, and LT to ULT.

That reply was to Major Crimes in answer to his question to me. Your reply is very confusing even to me. I'm going to go eat.

[Eyesa Horg]

[John Kloehr]

6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

That reply was to Lone Star in answer to his question to me. Your reply is very confusing even to me. I'm going to go eat.

Enjoy dinner, I will soon.

 

At any competition, in any sport, I just try to be safe. I can understand you finding my post confusing. Others in this thread have shown confusion without my input. Their confused input made me look at the text.

 

I'll try again, starting by stepping away from the actual question presented by the OP. Maybe I should start a new thread as it is a different question. My question is:

 

What is the definition of the Course Of Fire? Is it from beep to last shot (per the rule book) or is it from the LT to the ULT (per the rulebook)?

 

The rule book has two definitions.

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

39 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

 My question is:

 

What is the definition of the Course Of Fire? Is it from beep to last shot (per the rule book) or is it from the LT to the ULT (per the rulebook)?

 

The rule book has two definitions.

 

 

Those are two different definitions for different terms.

 

   Firing line: From the first firearm placed on the loading table until the last gun is cleared at the unloading table.

 

There are two definitions in the defined terms portion of the shb for "stage" and course of fire" which are synonymous.

 

Course of fire: From the beep of the timer once the shooter signifies "ready" until the last Shot is fired.

 

Stage: Synonymous with "course of fire". From the beep of the timer once the shooter signifies "ready" until the last shot is fired.

 

 

[Krazy Kajun]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yadda Yadda some other stuff.....

 

I guess I could scour the books. Could be unsafe gun handling. Or reckless walking.

Reckless walking huh.  Well what if there was a chicken's foot in the barrel of the shotgun when walking?  Is that reckless walking or spell walking? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Krazy "wut is doing my part in furtherance of this endless thread" Kajun

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

"I AM SO CONFUSED!!!!!!"

The rule book says this on page such and such, but says this on page so and so.

Does anyone but me think the rule book needs to be completely rewritten AND shortened?

I think I will now bring Lawyer Daggett with me from now on to matches.

I mean, if when I am moving from my guncart to the LT or from the ULT to my guncart with rifle in one hand and my '97 in my other hand by the forend wood, because it's 100+ degrees outside and all the metal parts will give me 1st degree burns if I am holding it by anywhere other than by the forend wood, and the action closes before I get it the LT or into my cart, and I can't stop and close it because I don't have a "third hand", I will get a SDQ for the stage?

 

[Major Crimes]

9 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

Reckless walking huh.  Well what if there was a chicken's foot in the barrel of the shotgun when walking?  Is that reckless walking or spell walking? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Krazy "wut is doing my part in furtherance of this endless thread" Kajun

[Tyrel Cody]

4 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

"I AM SO CONFUSED!!!!!!"

The rule book says this on page such and such, but says this on page so and so.

Does anyone but me think the rule book needs to be completely rewritten AND shortened?

I think I will now bring Lawyer Daggett with me from now on to matches.

I mean, if when I am moving from my guncart to the LT or from the ULT to my guncart with rifle in one hand and my '97 in my other hand by the forend wood, because it's 100+ degrees outside and all the metal parts will give me 1st degree burns if I am holding it by anywhere other than by the forend wood, and the action closes before I get it the LT or into my cart, and I can't stop and close it because I don't have a "third hand", I will get a SDQ for the stage?

 

 

Not sure why folks are confused. 

If that happens cart to LT or from ULT to gun cart  it is NOT an SDQ.

 

That only applies from the LT to the ULT, that’s it.

 

 

[Major Crimes]

7 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

"I AM SO CONFUSED!!!!!!"

The rule book says this on page such and such, but says this on page so and so.

Does anyone but me think the rule book needs to be completely rewritten AND shortened?

I think I will now bring Lawyer Daggett with me from now on to matches.

I mean, if when I am moving from my guncart to the LT or from the ULT to my guncart with rifle in one hand and my '97 in my other hand by the forend wood, because it's 100+ degrees outside and all the metal parts will give me 1st degree burns if I am holding it by anywhere other than by the forend wood, and the action closes before I get it the LT or into my cart, and I can't stop and close it because I don't have a "third hand", I will get a SDQ for the stage?

 

No, you won't, but you may get a touch up if you don't carry your firearms in a safe manner to the LT and from the ULT to your cart.

 

Watch the video it is the definitive answer.

 

PWB I bet you are just pissing yourself watching this dumpster fire. Please don't step in though as I have a bet on 6 pages and I reckon I am looking good so long as you don't knobble me.

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

Tyrel, if the ROC agrees with you, I will have renewed faith in the SASS ROC.

Otherwise, then Misty Moonshine who owns SASS, needs to state what the SASS rule is.

[Tennessee williams]

18 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

"I AM SO CONFUSED!!!!!!"

The rule book says this on page such and such, but says this on page so and so.

Does anyone but me think the rule book needs to be completely rewritten AND shortened?

I think I will now bring Lawyer Daggett with me from now on to matches.

I mean, if when I am moving from my guncart to the LT or from the ULT to my guncart with rifle in one hand and my '97 in my other hand by the forend wood, because it's 100+ degrees outside and all the metal parts will give me 1st degree burns if I am holding it by anywhere other than by the forend wood, and the action closes before I get it the LT or into my cart, and I can't stop and close it because I don't have a "third hand", I will get a SDQ for the stage?

 

Twenty-teen side questions got asked is why you're confused. Just look at the defined terms and all will clear up for you. 

[John Kloehr]

52 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Those are two different definitions for different terms.

 

   Firing line: From the first firearm placed on the loading table until the last gun is cleared at the unloading table.

 

There are two definitions in the defined terms portion of the shb for "stage" and course of fire" which are synonymous.

 

Course of fire: From the beep of the timer once the shooter signifies "ready" until the last Shot is fired.

 

Stage: Synonymous with "course of fire". From the beep of the timer once the shooter signifies "ready" until the last shot is fired.

 

 

Page 17, the magnificent 7, fifth bullet (my bold):

 

"Firearms remain unloaded outside of the normal course of fire -- loading area to unloading area."

 

That is more than beep to last shot.

 

And it would lead to an SDQ for a Stoeger SxS which closes but no call for a manually cocked SxS which closes, because the rules relating to the two definitions conflict on if the shotgun is cocked.

[Tyrel Cody]

6 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Tyrel, if the ROC agrees with you, I will have renewed faith in the SASS ROC.

Otherwise, then Misty Moonshine who owns SASS, needs to state what the SASS rule is.

Don’t need the ROC to agree, once you’ve been cleared at the unloading table you can close your shotgun a thousand times, walk around that way, throw it on the ground and jump up and down on it, pretty much anything as long as it’s not loaded when you get to the loading table at the next stage and you don’t sweep anyone with it.

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

please lock this one up.

[John Kloehr]

28 minutes ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

Does anyone but me think the rule book needs to be completely rewritten AND shortened?

Others probably do, but it is not as easy as you might think. Safety is incremental and a better result often comes from limiting fixes to identified problems.

 

But shortening rather than expanding is generally a better outcome.

[Tennessee williams]

1 minute ago, John Kloehr said:

Page 17, the magnificent 7, fifth bullet (my bold):

 

"Firearms remain unloaded outside of the normal course of fire -- loading area to unloading area."

 

That is more than beep to last shot.

 

And it would lead to an SDQ for a Stoeger SxS which closes but no call for a manually cocked SxS which closes, because the rules relating to the two definitions conflict on if the shotgun is cocked.

That is not in the defined terms portion of the shb. You asked for the definition. It also says don't put your booger picker on the boom button before you're ready to fire right next to your quoted line. No penalty if you do though! I go over this with brand new shooters and they have no problem understanding this most simple rule. Not trying to be mean or anything but I quoted the definitions for you. How often do you shoot in Oak Ridge? 

[Major Crimes]

12 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

please lock this one up.

 

Had your money on 3 pages HUH?

[Tyrel Cody]

1 minute ago, Major Crimes said:

 

Had your money on 3 pages HUH?

I’m not a gambler,  it’s that folks are confused for some reason and it just really needs to stop.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

That is not in the defined terms portion of the shb. You asked for the definition. It also says don't put your booger picker on the boom button before you're ready to fire right next to your quoted line. No penalty if you do though! I go over this with brand new shooters and they have no problem understanding this most simple rule. Not trying to be mean or anything but I quoted the definitions for you. How often do you shoot in Oak Ridge? 

I lean to the definition in the glossary. I'm an engineer. A glossary is a better source of truth. I am pointing out a discrepancy I found in the rules. And how it leads to confusion and a conflicting outcome.

 

As to how often I shoot at Oak Ridge, seriously not enough. I miss the crew, good guys.

 

I also think it is time for PWB to post blue quotes and close this thread, though I am looking forward to cooler weather in the coming weeks. Enough is enough.

[Tennessee williams]

16 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I lean to the definition in the glossary. I'm an engineer. A glossary is a better source of truth. I am pointing out a discrepancy I found in the rules. And how it leads to confusion and a conflicting outcome.

I honestly don't think anyone was confused about the Golden rules until now.