Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I was watching some old Muscle Car drag racing videos yesterday on YouTube and in part of the presentation, the Sea Level, Atmospheric Pressure, Temp, etc...... were listed as part of the information data of the races. This I can understand. BUT..... Does the Sea Level, Atmospheric Presssures, Temps, etc..... effect the Accuracy of our firearms at SASS/CAS target distances? AND..... can it adversely effect BP firearms within the ranges of SASS target distances? I'm sure it makes a difference at greater distances, but I'm speaking only of SASS/CAS target distances. Thanks! .........WIdder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Oh so that's why I'm missing!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I would think only temp and humidity would affect us and only at extremes. Altitude/atmospheric pressure... ehhh, I doubt it. Not for CAS distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said: I would think only temp and humidity would affect us and only at extremes. Altitude/atmospheric pressure... ehhh, I doubt it. Not for CAS distances. Oh c'mon this is a great excuse for misses!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 What about the tide level? If the moon has enough gravitational pull to move the ocean, then it certainly can move a little bullet. This may explain my recent miss at EOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still hand Bill Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Having shot a lot around 6k ft elevation and now shooting at 900ft, it doesn’t make a noticeable difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 The Coriolis effect usually causes my misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 20 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: What about the tide level? If the moon has enough gravitational pull to move the ocean, then it certainly can move a little bullet. This may explain my recent miss at EOT. Of course the tide effect might have been pulling on the liquid in your dominant eye causing you to, once again, miss with your left pistol. Come to think of it you do have an affinity for left hand tidal misses, especially on Saturdays. You might want to look into that Evil Bob. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 At SASS distance, NO. True long range(800+ yrds), YES. Humidity and air temperature comes into play also. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I've only seen low temperatures, high and low humidity and heavy (or lack of) wind directly affect cowboy shooting ballistics and reliability. Low temperatures - because some powders are weaker performers in cold temperatures, and we typically shoot some of the lightest loads in the shooting world, our shooting can be significantly affected by temperatures of freezing or below. Of course, testing "frozen" ammo. can be easily done now, since everyone has their own Yeti. And, remember, there is a rules-based lower velocity limit and a lower power factor limit for Cowboy, and a more restrictive limit for Wild Bunch . Cold mornings can certainly make it possible to be in violation of velocity/power requirements. Heavy wind - mostly by blowing up dust to obscure targets and fill guns with grit, to point of not being operational. High humidity and no wind - these atmospheric conditions allow black powder and substitutes smoke to collect and obscure targets. (And SASS rules warn of that possibility) Low humidity and high air temperatures make BP fouling harder and produce more barrel deposits, and might decrease accuracy enough to be noticeable at side match ranges. Now, there can be lots of weather effects on the shooter's ability to navigate the stage. But I figure you already have those well under foot and in hand. And as for affecting accuracy? In Cowboy shooting? How the heck can you tell, when there's not even "minute of steel accuracy" under the best of conditions? good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 The only thing that may affect anything at CAS distances is temperature. Picture your ammo baking in the sun in your cart, the rounds are so hot they burn your fingers and thus, raise pressures. On top of this, it's so bloody hot, you can't seem to remember the stages. Next imagine your ammo at a cold weather shoot. Your fingers are a bit stiff pulling your shotgun shells and the ignition on your cartridges is a bit (or a lot) inconsistent due to the low temperatures. Thin dry air vs. heavy, humid air won't make a speck of difference at CAS distances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Fly-fart level loads, that work OK in Spring and summer do not do well come winter OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 But, on the other hand, ASTROLOGY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 SASS distances have been answered. I did see cold temps drastically effect some smokeless powders. I experienced first hand the effects of altitude and atmosphere playing golf. Played in So. Calif. Moved to Reno, NV 800' to 4,700 feet elevation. For the same distance you dropped one club for Reno's altitude. an 8 iron instead of a 7 iron as an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Temperature will affect pressures and velocities, especially with smokeless powders. Some smokeless powders can be low-temp sensitive, especially if you are loading at the minimum recommended for a particular powder, at room temperature. (Sorry, I don't know which ones. Check with Hodgdon's.) Conversely, if you are normally loading near the maximum listed load at room temperature and go shoot at 100+ degrees F., you may exceed the SASS maximum for velocity. Pressures may go up to a dangerous level. Worse then just the Outside Air Temperature (OAT) is if you leave your ammo in the unairconditioned car, or in the sun in a container such as a .50 cal. ammo "can". Altitude won't change the accuracy as much as it will change longrange ballistics. Sighting a hunting rifle in at sea level and then going hunting in Colorado will not only flatten the trajectory, but can change the bedding of your rifle. (Think what pitchers face when pitching at Tampa Bay versus Coors Field in Denver!) For SASS ranges, it won't make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Quote Does the Sea Level, Atmospheric Presssures, Temps, etc..... effect the Accuracy of our firearms at SASS/CAS target distances? AND..... can it adversely effect BP firearms within the ranges of SASS target distances? I'm sure it makes a difference at greater distances, but I'm speaking only of SASS/CAS target distances. ZERO IMPACT on accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: I was watching some old Muscle Car drag racing videos yesterday on YouTube and in part of the presentation, the Sea Level, Atmospheric Pressure, Temp, etc...... were listed as part of the information data of the races. This I can understand. BUT..... Does the Sea Level, Atmospheric Presssures, Temps, etc..... effect the Accuracy of our firearms at SASS/CAS target distances? AND..... can it adversely effect BP firearms within the ranges of SASS target distances? I'm sure it makes a difference at greater distances, but I'm speaking only of SASS/CAS target distances. Thanks! .........WIdder Depends upon whether you're shooting uphill or downhill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: I was watching some old Muscle Car drag racing videos yesterday on YouTube and in part of the presentation, the Sea Level, Atmospheric Pressure, Temp, etc...... were listed as part of the information data of the races. This I can understand. BUT..... Does the Sea Level, Atmospheric Presssures, Temps, etc..... effect the Accuracy of our firearms at SASS/CAS target distances? AND..... can it adversely effect BP firearms within the ranges of SASS target distances? I'm sure it makes a difference at greater distances, but I'm speaking only of SASS/CAS target distances. Thanks! .........WIdder Depends... supercharged or fuel injected? Both? Nitro or Sunoco Blue? What's the timing set at? Open headers or closed exhaust? Facts man, we need the facts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singin' Sue 71615 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: I've only seen low temperatures, high and low humidity and heavy (or lack of) wind directly affect cowboy shooting ballistics and reliability. Low temperatures - because some powders are weaker performers in cold temperatures, and we typically shoot some of the lightest loads in the shooting world, our shooting can be significantly affected by temperatures of freezing or below. Of course, testing "frozen" ammo. can be easily done now, since everyone has their own Yeti. And, remember, there is a rules-based lower velocity limit and a lower power factor limit for Cowboy, and a more restrictive limit for Wild Bunch . Cold mornings can certainly make it possible to be in violation of velocity/power requirements. Heavy wind - mostly by blowing up dust to obscure targets and fill guns with grit, to point of not being operational. High humidity and no wind - these atmospheric conditions allow black powder and substitutes smoke to collect and obscure targets. (And SASS rules warn of that possibility) Low humidity and high air temperatures make BP fouling harder and produce more barrel deposits, and might decrease accuracy enough to be noticeable at side match ranges. Now, there can be lots of weather effects on the shooter's ability to navigate the stage. But I figure you already have those well under foot and in hand. And as for affecting accuracy? In Cowboy shooting? How the heck can you tell, when there's not even "minute of steel accuracy" under the best of conditions? good luck, GJ One Gent at EOT in NM said he put his pistol/rifle ammo in his rv freezer... He felt the high altitude, dryness and heat was affecting his rounds. Said after using the 'frozen' ammo...all worked without a hitch. Soooooo....answer is still up for grabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Think Karma is SASS shooters worst enemy other than heat and humidity GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Kid, SASS #54030 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I did a quick calculation, and the answer is: Probably not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider Creek Shootist Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 12 minutes ago, Swiss Kid, SASS #54030 said: I did a quick calculation, and the answer is: Probably not With all due respect ....................................... You forgot to carry the one ............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 No, no, no, it was the inverse of the reciprocal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 I didn't see "i" in the equations. You can't do serious math if you didn't include an imaginary number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 Where is Noz?? He is a retired Army Field Artillery Officer. When you are trying to drop an explosive shell in someone’s hip pocket 20 miles away, EVERYTHING matters. At SASS target distances, you are the only thing that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 19, 2021 Share Posted July 19, 2021 6 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said: Said after using the 'frozen' ammo...all worked without a hitch. Some powders are great when cold. Many are not. Clays is one that is VERY well known to be weaker in cold weather. On the other hand, a few powers are stronger when cold. WST is well known for being exactly that - higher chamber pressures when cold and lower pressures when hot. Which is one more reason it's my favorite pistol/shotgun powder. It stays so consistent over temps from 20 F to 140 F. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singin' Sue 71615 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Some powders are great when cold. Many are not. Clays is one that is VERY well known to be weaker in cold weather. On the other hand, a few powers are stronger when cold. WST is well known for being exactly that - higher chamber pressures when cold and lower pressures when hot. Which is one more reason it's my favorite pistol/shotgun powder. It stays so consistent over temps from 20 F to 140 F. good luck, GJ I wish I could remember who it was that was putting his rounds in the freezer.... maybe they will speak up! You know my knowledge is "that it goes bang"!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still hand Bill Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Altitude has a big effect on internal combustion engines. As the air pressure drops cylinder filling becomes less. At 11,000 ft you lose about 50% of sea level hp. I believe since powder contains its own oxidizer, altitude has little to no effect on burn rate. Air resistance is less, so shot shells should pattern a bit tighter. Probably no real effect on bullets at sass ranges. it also effect the boiling point, so cooking takes longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 My accuracy always suffers when I am under pressure! I have since taken up meditation to help deal with the pressure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 34 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said: Air resistance is less, ....... Probably no real effect on bullets. That would be a wrong assumption. Air density (and even temperature) has a major effect on velocity decay and trajectory. Due to drag on the bullet. Lots more drag at sea level than at 10,000 feet. But, not to worry when shooting at most cowboy distances. Snipers, however, have to pay real attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 12 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said: Where is Noz?? He is a retired Army Field Artillery Officer. When you are trying to drop an explosive shell in someone’s hip pocket 20 miles away, EVERYTHING matters. At SASS target distances, you are the only thing that matters. When we were tasked with first round unregistered accuracy we would constantly refer to weather radio for updates. Even the rotation of the earth for the time the 200 lb. round was in the air was significant. All of the calculations were done with pencil and paper instead of computers. I will admit we did use a slide rule for some of the more complex situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 All these things taken into consideration, I am less accurate when I am shooting. Imis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 This was well explained over 10 years ago oddly enough while studying transmissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 On 7/19/2021 at 5:25 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said: I was watching some old Muscle Car drag racing videos yesterday on YouTube and in part of the presentation, the Sea Level, Atmospheric Pressure, Temp, etc...... were listed as part of the information data of the races. This I can understand. BUT..... Does the Sea Level, Atmospheric Presssures, Temps, etc..... effect the Accuracy of our firearms at SASS/CAS target distances? AND..... can it adversely effect BP firearms within the ranges of SASS target distances? I'm sure it makes a difference at greater distances, but I'm speaking only of SASS/CAS target distances. Thanks! .........WIdder Hatcher's Notebook discussed that. The effects are negligible in hand-held firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Actually atmospheric pressure tremendously affects accuracy at sass distances; although individual effects will vary. After what started as a minor niggle and grew to tremendous proportions I performed an intense multi-year experiment into hits vs misses. Without expounding on all of the various trials and tribulations I went through, I will give my finding and thus resulting theory. It ain't mattered where I was or what I was a doing. I ain't never had no miss what didn't have some atmospheric pressure involved it somewhere. That there's the common denominator! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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