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Snakebite

The near Future of CAS

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There are lots of ways to get creative with stage design to save ammo.

 

Only use 2 shotgun per stage, no make-ups.  Now a box of 25 will last two matches.

 

Put 3 rounds in each pistol, with an empty chamber between each.  Still have to run 5 cycles, but saved 4 rounds per stage.

 

Shoot 6, 7, 8, or 9 rifle rounds per stage, saving some rounds there as well.

 

It's not hard, just takes thinking outside the box.

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7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If folks are running low, couldn’t they just skip either a Saturday or Sunday match? If they’re not doing that, should the club force them to by going to once a week?


The only reduction in shooting from going from two a week to one a week will either be people who wanted to shoot both days and now can’t, or people who can’t shoot at all because the day they needed is no longer offered. 
 

How is either of those outcomes a good thing?

There is of course merit to what you say. My comment was just a thought. For the first 20 yrs or so we only shot on Sunday and it worked out just fine, in fact I liked it much better. We have so many matches available around our area that a person can shoot every day on every weekend if they want to do so. But the fact is that ALL of these events are suffering from a lack of shooters. If the number of options were cut down I believe that it would help all of us. There are so many options that the turnout of most matches isn't worth the drive for me.  When we brought Saturday into our lineup it did indeed provide more options for the shooters but the numbers on Saturday have always been low as compared to Sunday. IMO if Saturday matches were not available the Sunday turnout would improve, and provide a better CAS experience. I would rather see one good day than two half-assed days. JMO. 

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5 minutes ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

There are lots of ways to get creative with stage design to save ammo.

 

Only use 2 shotgun per stage, no make-ups.  Now a box of 25 will last two matches.

 

Put 3 rounds in each pistol, with an empty chamber between each.  Still have to run 5 cycles, but saved 4 rounds per stage.

 

Shoot 6, 7, 8, or 9 rifle rounds per stage, saving some rounds there as well.

 

It's not hard, just takes thinking outside the box.

Of course your are right... but shooting is one of the things I go to the match for.  I would rather shoot at least the 10-10-4 standard than to drive to a shoot and take a couple of Drive-by shots and then go home. But yes, that would indeed cut down on the amount of ammo, but it might cut down on the amount of shooters too. 

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2 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Of course your are right... but shooting is one of the things I go to the match for.  I would rather shoot at least the 10-10-4 standard than to drive to a shoot and take a couple of Drive-by shots and then go home. But yes, that would indeed cut down on the amount of ammo, but it might cut down on the amount of shooters too. 

 

No disagreement here, but if it came down to it, I'd rather have a limited shoot than no shoot.

 

Maybe start a "Down On His Luck Cowboy" category, the misses are built in.  :P

 

As I mentioned in a prior post, I do believe it will get better next year, but for those of us who are used to having some personal inventory, it's going to seem like a barren wasteland.

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We are a distributor for Shooters World powders. We sell a LOT of Clean Shot (smokeless).  We just got approx 10,000 pounds of Clean Shot in at the warehouse. We are not running out. We order foundry lead 200,000 pounds at a time and have it delivered 10 tons at a time. We are working two shifts and trying to catch up with casting 100 + different weights/calibers.  When EVERYTHING sells out (for whatever reason, it takes a minute to catch up again.)  For the first time in years I’m asking customers to limit their bullet purchases to what they NEED NOW... not what they need a year from now. We are NOT GOING OUT OF BUSINESS.  The possibility of a source, other than Federal, MAY BE what we are faced with...

We are getting some to test. Might we need to replace the springs on some of our pistols, probably. We can still keep shooting. 
 

I also know that Fiocchi (and one other whose name escapes me) is opening a primer manufacturing facility in Arkansas and maybe Florida... 

 

Will we need to make adjustments? Sure! Am I gonna give up the game I love because of my dependence on Federal Primers? NOT ON YOUR DAMN LIFE! I’ve got a pair of Heritage 22s and a Widder/Slater Softstroked Henry! :wub:

 

GREAT BIG HUGS! See some of you at LandRun next week!

 

Scarlett

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5 hours ago, Scarlett said:

We order foundry lead 200,000 pounds at a time and have it delivered 10 tons at a time.

 

Scarlett

I worked at a lead smelter here for 23 years, and we would cast our pigs from 120 ton kettles into ten ton molds to be shipped out ten at a time in rail cars twice a day - 100,000 pounds was full capacity, and that stuff didn't take up much room in the bottom of that car! Toward the end, we had to weld a divider in the molds because the customer base changed and no one could handle the ten ton pigs anymore. On very rare occasions, we had some much smaller molds that held around 350 pounds.

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The Clubs could help! All stages don't have to be 10-10-4 or 10-10-6  the old days of End of Trail we had stages like  5 pistol 6 rifle 2 shotgun or  10 pistol 4 shotgun no rifle or  5 pistol 10 rifle no shotgun .  Von Dutch

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The October stages that I wrote had 16 shotgun shots on 6 stages. If anyone noticed,  they didn't complain.  Overall times were faster (except for mine). 

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23 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

I recall the last time this occurred clubs were much more receptive of allowing folks to shoot 22's in matches, just to allow the game to continue.

.22 are in short supply too.

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5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

There is of course merit to what you say. My comment was just a thought. For the first 20 yrs or so we only shot on Sunday and it worked out just fine, in fact I liked it much better. We have so many matches available around our area that a person can shoot every day on every weekend if they want to do so. But the fact is that ALL of these events are suffering from a lack of shooters. If the number of options were cut down I believe that it would help all of us. There are so many options that the turnout of most matches isn't worth the drive for me.  When we brought Saturday into our lineup it did indeed provide more options for the shooters but the numbers on Saturday have always been low as compared to Sunday. IMO if Saturday matches were not available the Sunday turnout would improve, and provide a better CAS experience. I would rather see one good day than two half-assed days. JMO. 

I can't argue with that!

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From my own history, I would have been shooting CAS years ago, but the local shoots were on Sunday and Church takes precedence for me.

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Good spark Snakebite! 

 
I don’t think “November” will change anything. It appears that the core of the shortage problem is the reduction in work force - and more specifically the number of active work hours per day - for everyone in the food chain of our guns, primers, powder, and lead due to the pandemic. I’ve learned directly from one of the promient Italian gun makers that their work hours - and the work hours of their competitors - are greatly depleted as are companies who provide them with boxes, stocks, wood, springs, and related services. More importantly, there’s concern about Italy’s pandemic problem which is on the rise again but not as bad as other European countries. So, until foreign and domestic providers can get their people back on full schedule - whenever the heck that will be - production of everything we use for CAS will be limited.
 
The SHOT Show (Las Vegas, Jan 19-22, 2021) is now getting word out to exhibitors asking for names of attendees for name badges, etc., however the word is that NSSF (who runs the show) might have to cancel the show because of the pandemic. And it appears that I.W.A (Germany, mid-March) - the largest gun show - will probably also cancel because of the pandemic.
 
So, it’s not some political or governmant demon who has come to mess with our Second Amendment - it’s COVID 19.
 
The idea of clubs that shoot Sat/Sun should reduce to a one day match is a good one, and I think clubs have to look beyond the loss of second day revenue (which I hope most clubs don’t focus on as their primary goal) and consider the betterment of both their clubs and their members. A local club that you and I attend that averages 32-34 shooters a day might drop to 25-27 shooters for the one day because: 1) there are about a dozen husband/wife members who come and camp for the two nights to make a weekend of it, and 2) local folks who typically come just come on their “off day” will probably come on the one day. So, there will be an increase of the local shooters and a decrease of the folks who travel and camp. (I’m not sure how many of the folks who travel and camp for two nights would drive out for a one-day event. (We only shoot one day at PRVC and very few if any come to camp just for Friday night - it’s just not worth the hassle. And, just for reference, as a one-day per month club, we had 25 shooters this past Saturday.)
 
The sad part is that it means we’ll be spending less time with our shooting friends, but...
 
You’ve planted a seed, however, and it has me thinking that it might be better if our club reduces our monthly  6-stage match to 5 stages. As always, you've got me thinking!
 
Thanks for kicking this one off!!
 
RR

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People will be buying and making dummy rounds if they don't have them and dry fire practicing more.  Good time to practice transitions as well.  Notice I started the first sentence with "People will" not "I will"   ^_^   

 

Although actually I do have a few hundred rounds of ammo earmarked for practice because I think there's some squibs in there!

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Roger.. I agree about the club you mentioned.  I go there as much to camp as I do to shoot. It is a premier spot on the West Coast for camping... In fact, if they went to three days it would be OK with me. There are certainly lots of pros and cons to considered on the issue and it needs to be discussed by the membership of each club to determine if it is a good or bad idea. 

 

Snakebite

 

 

 

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I was doing some on line research on the ammo shortage and came across a article that was discussing the situation with Head Guy at Magtech. I knew that there were a lot of New gun purchases out there because I've actually talked to folks that never owned a gun, that bought one. They were surprised to find that here in California it wasn't as easy to buy a gun as the anti-gun crowd had led them to believe it was. Ha... surprise! Anyway the article had these interesting things to say. 

Gun/Ammo sales are up 10 times normal and that 40% of sales are to first time buyers. Major manufacturers are running 24/7 trying to get caught up and keep up with demand. The major problem stems from the COVID 19 issue making it very hard to get raw materials. Expect a min of 12 months before non rationed ammo becomes available, and 24 before prices return to what will be a new normal. News buyers had no idea of what ammo prices normally were, so just accepted the inflated prices as the norm. The article went on to say what we all already know..... there would be enough if folks would stop buying more than they need or will ever use. Duh....
 
 
 
 
 

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My comment isn't meant to sound negative, although it might to some Pards.

But if some clubs change their shooting format and limit the shooting to 60-75% of what we are use to (10-10-4+),

there will be some shooters who ain't gonna travel 1.5+ hours to a match just to shoot a total of 60 rounds.

 

Some clubs the past couple years have started shooting 6 stages a day, instead of 5, because the paying customers

wanted MORE shooting, not less.

 

This is just a thought to be considered.   Folks, when we all run out, we all run out.   We'll just have to weather THIS storm

together and hope for the best.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

My comment isn't meant to sound negative, although it might to some Pards.

But if some clubs change their shooting format and limit the shooting to 60-75% of what we are use to (10-10-4+),

there will be some shooters who ain't gonna travel 1.5+ hours to a match just to shoot a total of 60 rounds.

 

Some clubs the past couple years have started shooting 6 stages a day, instead of 5, because the paying customers

wanted MORE shooting, not less.

 

This is just a thought to be considered.   Folks, when we all run out, we all run out.   We'll just have to weather THIS storm

together and hope for the best.

 

..........Widder

 

 

A big +1 to this post.

 

I don't think that I would waste the time, fuel and money to shoot abbreviated stages or matches. I sure as hell will not make a 4 hour drive (round trip) for it. A local match tried doing that about 10 years ago to try to "get done before it got hot". It was not well accepted....not at all. 

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11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Some clubs the past couple years have started shooting 6 stages a day, instead of 5, because the paying customers

wanted MORE shooting, not less.

 

We've always shot 6 stages.  We went 2 hours to another club and they charged $5 more and shot 5 stages.  I can't say it's why we've not been back but it's a consideration.  

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3 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I was doing some on line research ... the article

 

"Gun/Ammo sales are up 10 times normal and that 40% of sales are to first time buyers."

100 million gun owners (maybe more).

5 million new gun owners (estimate).

 

So, 5% of gun owners are responsible for 40% of consumption...(?)

 

Provides some context for how many have some personal stock on hand.

 

As to ammo sales actually running 10 times normal, the demand might be there but production is not. It probably did run at a 10X rate until the pipeline went dry.

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If we could just please start counting jacked out rounds as hits, it would save me hundreds of bullets a year, I think.  :P

 

Totes

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If we could just come up with an agreed upon number of misses before I shoot a stage, I would gladly save those rounds for future use!

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In a way this has been something that's been crossing my mind frequently too, and not just when I go to reload and I see what supplies I have...

 

Being I've only been in this sport a little over a year myself I continue to meet nothing but the nicest people from all over who if I wasn't a shooter I might not have ever met. I absolutely love shooting in the SASS world but if things don't change here soon I could be another shooter that goes "dry". And with that said I got super lucky myself to have purchased a full press and all the extras (power, bullets, brass, and a 5k box of primers) from a good friend. But after the constant surprises that 2020 has been dealing out and they don't seem to be slowing down, I wonder how much longer I will be able to keep shooting with the stock I have left on hand. Back when I bought the press I was thinking that later on I could buy primers when needed.... guess I was wrong there and already regret not having bought a few thousand more. So I should be able to limp into 2021 with high hopes that primers start making a come back, but I know for a fact I WILL NOT pay someone on gun broker in a bidding war just to get more.

 

22 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

People will be buying and making dummy rounds if they don't have them and dry fire practicing more.  Good time to practice transitions as well.  Notice I started the first sentence with "People will" not "I will"   ^_^   

Even with the dry fire practice it doesn't quite feel the same as going to the range to hear the bang.... ting! But yes I have noticed a small increase in speed between the transitions after some dry runs in the backyard.

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The fourth Saturday match at the Cajon Cowboys gives you a choice of shooting six or eight stages. The match fees are the same but if you want to shoot the two extra stages you can. The two extra stages are scored separately. They started doing this during the hot months and have continued it. It seems to work out well.

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52 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

The fourth Saturday match at the Cajon Cowboys gives you a choice of shooting six or eight stages. The match fees are the same but if you want to shoot the two extra stages you can. The two extra stages are scored separately. They started doing this during the hot months and have continued it. It seems to work out well.

Something other clubs should seriously consider.  ;)

OLG 

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I have not been able to shoot in over a year but I go to shoots to see my friends as much as to shoot.  Speaking of, the German air gun shooter,  The big old boy setting in the swing on the porch? I want to be his friend cause he just looks like he would be in charge of the beer.

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I have the luxury of having supplies to get to 2022 (at least) other than shotgun. Having said that, I prefer to play the game the way I’m accustomed to, even if that means running out of reloading supplies a bit earlier.

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We cancelled our winter indoor season, as the covid situation here in europe got a lot worse again in the last weeks. We all, including shooter, would have to wear masks and we considered this a safety issue. :(

I definitely won't recommend this way of saving ammo to others... ;)

 

Equanimous 

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15 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

The fourth Saturday match at the Cajon Cowboys gives you a choice of shooting six or eight stages. The match fees are the same but if you want to shoot the two extra stages you can. The two extra stages are scored separately. They started doing this during the hot months and have continued it. It seems to work out well.

Very Interesting concept. Thanks for mentioning it.

 

sb

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Gold Country WBAS has an optional sixth stage. It is like three stages though. It uses 60 + rounds. IMO, it is the best (most fun) stage of the day. You can shoot a target until you hit it, including SG. It isn't conserving of ammo unless you are really good at small and far targets (I'm not). You can use any gun; 1911, rifle, SG or any combination. Only, gun specific instruction is that clays must be shot with SG.

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Interesting idea too.

 

sb

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Who would have thought that the most common caliber you can find factory ammo that could be used for SASS is 32 S&W long.  Who would have thought 9mm Luger going selling for $60 a box and hard to find . Who would have thought that you wished  you had something to shoot .30 Luger. Who would have thought you could now shoot .30 Carbine cheaper than .223. Who would have thought that you could find places sold out of .45 GAP. Who would have thought .40 S&W, 357 Sig and .38 Super would be hard to find.

 

I will be hosed for this,  because the 10-10-4 or 6 is the standard round  count, but what if  instead of cancelling matches we became more realistic and shot your one or two pistols  and a rifle or shotgun on each stage. That would cut the round  count down so you could shoot close to two matches for the same number of rounds we normally shoot in one match . Very few cowboys had both a shotgun and a rifle. It would also speed up matches. Ok, i said it so now you can hose me for it.  

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Depending on distance needed to travel and the number of matches offered in an area a lot of people would prefer to go to one normal match then two minimal round count matches. But that's not everyone.

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I kinda had an idea that this was going to happen again this election cycle so since the last run on primers and powder I’ve been squirreling away the above items. I’m set for quite awhile and have even been doling out a 1,000 primers as shooter door prizes up at the Cowboys on occasion. I hear some of the complaints about running out of reloading supplies and wonder why more folks didn’t see this coming. There are a lot more gun owners now so IMHO, we can expect this stuff to happen more often, better stock up when you can.

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