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[Doc10039]

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Edited August 12 by Doc10039

[Tyrel Cody]

How do short strokes, sbh hammers, gun mods in general affect you?

 

I'll never understand why folks let what others are using affect their fun.

 

As long as folks are safe I don't give a rip what they're using. 

 

As to close targets and such; talk to your match director and ask if you can write the stages sonet time  and set the targets out further. 

 

My son and I just got back from a match on someone's horse farm that was an old school match. Shotgun poppers,  throwing knives, moving targets, Texas star, etc. It was a blast, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time.

 

 

 

[Cholla]

24 minutes ago, Doc10039 said:

I am not a member of SASS anymore. I started back when it was still fairly new. My SASS number is #10039 and it will always be and my alias is Doc Waxham. It kinda makes me sad the direction it all went. All the short strokes, sbh style hammers on all the guns that never had them. Shotshell primers on ROA'S what's next dog's and cats sleeping together mass hysteria. Targets so close you don't have to aim just point and shoot. I've shot several Winter Range matches, and shot with Rio Salado and ACSA here in the Phoenix area. I've shot a couple of matches in the last year it is still fun mainly because I get to shoot my 44/40 revolvers, 73 rifle, and 1887 shotgun circa 1888 all with full blackpowder loads. Just my 2cents but I think it has turned into what I hoped wouldn't happen. We dropped out about 20yrs ago when we lost our son. This is just a culmination of my thoughts and observations.  Thanks Doc Waxham #1003

Everything you are lamenting the loss of is exactly what NCOWS is all about. No short strokes and smaller and further away targets. Get enough like-minded folks together in Phoenix and start a posse. NCOWS was talking about having a match at the range near Tombstone a couple of years ago just to see what the interest level is but I think it was canceled due to COVID.

[Rip Snorter]

IPSC went the same route - the "Practical" exited a while after Space guns and required gear entered.  Pretty normal that some people are going to want all the performance they can get.  Maybe there is something new on the horizon.  Guns, ammo, gear, whatever I shoot I try to keep it adequate for real world use.  No foul, different strokes.

[Doc10039]

It doesn't affect me. As it said at the end of my statement these were just observations and thoughts never said anything about how it affected me it is just my opinion and you have one as well. To me it is the loss of the spirit of the game.

Edited August 10 by Doc10039

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

Doc,

 

Based on your Sass Number we started around the same time,  For me August of 96,   A lot has changes since then as far as the the shooting part of our sport over the years but the most important part for me remains the same,  Its the People.  We've gone from shooting small targets further out to up close and personal,  stage times have gone from 40 and 50 seconds to mid teens but the people haven't changed all that much.   I tell people who are interested in our sport that you can go to a monthly match and you shoot 5 stages for a total of 75 to 150 seconds of actual shooting time.   Your at the match for 5 or 6 hours,  you better like something else other than just the shooting.  IMO Action jobs and short strokes have had an effect on our sport but its minimal.  Real competitors are practicing more than we did back in the day,  they work hard at getting that fast and while slick guns help,  there is no gun modification that is going to make a shooter go from 25 seconds to 15 seconds,  not going to happen. 

 I miss the fun and silly things we used to do on stages but I don't see that ever coming back,  The game has changes,  people have gotten older and not comfortable with what we used to do.  But you know what,  I have all the memories and some of the friends from back then and I wouldn't change that for the world.  

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, Doc10039 said:

I am not a member of SASS anymore. I started back when it was still fairly new. My SASS number is #10039 and it will always be and my alias is Doc Waxham. It kinda makes me sad the direction it all went. All the short strokes, sbh style hammers on all the guns that never had them. Shotshell primers on ROA'S what's next dog's and cats sleeping together mass hysteria. Targets so close you don't have to aim just point and shoot. I've shot several Winter Range matches, and shot with Rio Salado and ACSA here in the Phoenix area. I've shot a couple of matches in the last year it is still fun mainly because I get to shoot my 44/40 revolvers, 73 rifle, and 1887 shotgun circa 1888 all with full blackpowder loads. Just my 2cents but I think it has turned into what I hoped wouldn't happen. We dropped out about 20yrs ago when we lost our son. This is just a culmination of my thoughts and observations.  Thanks Doc Waxham #1003

SASS is still fun Doc, just changed a bit, as have all of us. CPP correctly points out that some of the old timers are, well, older and can't do some of that stuff anymore.

 

Personally I enjoy watching my boy shoot a 14 or 15 second stage, even though that's beyond me.

[Mister Badly]

4 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

It was a blast, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time

Me neither. I had to shoulder my rifle on that mover. But I killed it. 

[Mister Badly]

5 hours ago, Doc10039 said:

We dropped out about 20yrs ago when we lost our son. This is just a culmination of my thoughts and observations.  Thanks Doc Waxham #1003

The people are the reason to shoot. Testing your skills is a reason to shoot. I enjoy watching fast shooters, duelists, and black powder shooters etc. Our club has started having a bonus stage filled with old school setups. I shoot all my guns from the hip. It's my personal challenge. I'm sorry you lost your son Doc. 

Edited August 10 by Mister Badly

[Silver Creek Jack]

Doc, you are certainly welcome to your opinion and your not the first Cowboy I have heard lamenting about the “good ol days” of cowboy action. I have shot that type of match you speak of and if that was how all the matches were today I would not be the least bit interested. I like the fast action stages, bigger targets and the slicked up rifles shotguns and pistols. Watching the speed demons of this sport is a blast and is amazing to me. I practice hard to improve my shooting and it is starting to pay off even though I will never be as fast as Matt Black or a couple dozen other guys I could name , I see examples of “spirit of the game” at most every match I go to, and the best folks who are always ready to help. That being said I shoot with a lot of folks that could care less about being fast, they shoot for clean stages or just for the sake of shooting and the laughs that always crop up on just about every stage.. Sounds like NCOWS might be your cup of tea, good luck to you! SCJ

[Chantry]

I probably started in 1997, but didn't actually join SASS it a couple of years later.  Yes, SASS has changed, some of that change was driven by what the majority of shooters wanted, which is close and fast.  The other half of the change was because SASS became too successful.   It no longer became feasible to set up long stages and do things on or off the clock when match attendance went way up, it just took too much time per shooter.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

40 minutes ago, Chantry said:

I probably started in 1997, but didn't actually join SASS it a couple of years later.  Yes, SASS has changed, some of that change was driven by what the majority of shooters wanted, which is close and fast.  The other half of the change was because SASS became too successful.   It no longer became feasible to set up long stages and do things on or off the clock when match attendance went way up, it just took too much time per shooter.

Yup, I remember I drove a couple hours to a match that was doing some "fun" stuff.  I got to the bay to shoot the 4th or 5th stage.  They had a lot of reloads, picking shells out of a trough, etc.  After waiting over 2 hours to shoot the stage (there were a little over 70 shooters), I gave up and drove home.  Yup, that was a ruined match for all but those who got to start on that stage.

They did have some fun matches.  Where during the rifle stage you got shot with an arrow and had to hold it under your arm to finish with the rifle. I asked why they didn't repeat it and they explained about the DQ's and accidents.

The time we used a bull whip to knock down a bowling pin.  I was good with those so when the whip wrapped around the pin, kept going, grabbed my loaded pistol staged on a table and brought it with it - DQ.  The stage designer was so angry that he had not anticipated that.  But as someone familiar with those whips, they are not safe in a crowd anyway.

Had a stage where we threw a cowboy hat at a post sorta like in the movie McClintock.  Fun until the wind came up.  That hat throw determined the entire match.

 

They when we tried shooting as in the movies.  Had to get under a real wagon and shoot our rifles - they never finished that stage.

 

So much of what we did, was fund, but  did not work for newer or non-athletic shooters. Some actions were not really safe for all.  Getting caught up in clothes and cloth.  Dropping things on our feet. Leading people to shoot on the move that weren't used to that.  Shooting in awkward positions.

 

And as Chantry said, some was really fun or funny and safe, but only worked for very small matches as it just took too long.

[Dusty Sights, SASS # 2782]

Doc Waxham, it is so good to see you here!

I have thought of you and your wonderful wife many, many times over the years. 

I came up behind you both when  you were looking at the score results at Rio and said, "Hey, how you folks been doing?"

You turned to me and said, "We just buried our son."

My heart ached for you both then, and still does even today, with tears in my eyes as I type this.

 

Its good to see you are still participating!

Don't let the "gamers" get you down!

 

 

 

 

[JohnWesleyHardin]

I have only been shooting for a few years so nothing has changed since I started, but I hear this a lot.  I enjoy fast and close because that is what I have always shot.  Having said that, at least in Iowa, you can find a club to shoot any style you want.  You just need to find a club that still shoots "old school" and shoot there.  There are clubs that I go to because I like the close and fast matches, and others I don't go to because I don't like shooting "old school" matches.   Find a club that you like and shoot there.

 

Chile Pepper Pete is 100% correct, it is about the people.   I get wrapped up in shooting fast and trying to place well and it becomes work and stops being fun.  I have to remind myself it is just a game and enjoy my travels to different clubs and the wonderful people I have met along the way.

 

I have been truly blessed by the many friends that I have made as a result of this sport.  

 

 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Been with SASS since 1988 badge #414. Shoot with wife, son & his wife and working with Great Granddaughter off & on and not quite old enough. Gotta enjoy SASS shooting with friends, family and it does not matter what you have done to you your irons to shoot faster or etc. Shooting is just having one heck of a good time.

I'm slowing down a bit due to health reasons. Be turning 86 next month. Just hang in there & have fun enjoy company around yah pilgrims.

Take care & God bless.

Edited August 11 by Jackrabbit Joe #414

[Go West]

My wife and I started SASS over 20 years ago and it has been quite a ride. Met many fine folks and still do. I hope the fun never stops.

 

[Dantankerous]

 I started back in 2009 and have loved every bit of it...changes or not and whatever else has happened along the way...it's just too much fun. How can it not be? Old West costuming and firearms?  Black powder smoke and laughter?  Meeting people from all over the country who share like interests?

 

 Everything changes over time and the argument is that is inevitable.

 

 Someday I hope to try NCOWS and I hope to enjoy both simultaneously.

 

SASS has always been enjoyable and if I didn't like something along the way I might try another category just add more spice to this game. Certainly there's something for everyone but life's too short not to dress cowboy, shoot guns and have fun.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11 by Dantankerous

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

23 hours ago, Doc10039 said:

We dropped out about 20yrs ago

 

This is what I don't understand.  You stopped shooting in SASS 20 years ago and you want to complain about the way it is run today?

Edited August 11 by Lucky Lead Pepper

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

You show up, you shoot what you think you should be shooting, the way you should be shooting it and you enjoy it. No, we don't have long, involved stages (for the most part) with axe throwing and the like. But, you can shooting box stock guns if you want; you can shoot slicked up, short-stroked if you want as well. Take your time and stay clean or blaze through a stage in the teens, up to you. Smokeless or Holy Black, your choice. Bottom line is, if you're not having fun, you're in the wrong place. If I feel it's not for me, either overall or just that day, I'll go home. Sorry if SASS can't please everyone; then again, I don't think we ever could. Changes were made along the way because the majority wanted the change. Heck, I didn't want to get old and fat either... 

[Doc10039]

Thanks for all the replies. Alot to think on. Good perspectives. As soon as it cools off here. I'll go try out Rio and start again.  Thanks again.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

 

Jailhouse Jim. "So now I shoot USPSA/ICORE in a stock gun category where other than a start position, I own the stage to shoot it my way where runnin' and gunnin' is legal."

 

There are no stock gun divisions/ categories in either ICORE or USPSA. There are divisions where full on race guns are not allowed but even ICORE Classic division (speedloaders, no moon clips) or USPSA Production division are not close to requiring the use of stock guns.

 

 

 

[Texas Jack Black]

 I have always said look at the numbers and you can see what works and what does not. Very Simple

 

Best Wishes

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I’ve been around long enough to remember some of the ‘good old days’.  
 

Exploding targets?  What could go wrong?

 

shooting at bells in a full size replica of an old church?  Bullets from the misses landed on a neighboring firing line.  Bullets that hit the bells some 15~20 feet in the air splattered randomly and rained lead on shooters.

 

Bullets so underpowered that they wouldn’t puncture cardboard at three feet.

 

Gotta admit that marksmanship kind of,  sort of mattered.  I liked that.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Just my opinion, but I think the demise of the non-shooting activities in SASS has been well explained in some post above...... 

number of shooters and time restraints.

 

As for target distances and sizes, I've shot at many clubs that seem to set the targets at the preferred club members

distances........ but you gotta be active in the club for them to hear your voice.

 

Best wishes on your planning to shoot more SASS and above all else, I hope you have a great, safe time.

 

..........Widder

 

[Texas Jack Black]

2 hours ago, Desert Pete SASS #42168 said:

I’ve been around long enough to remember some of the ‘good old days’.  
 

Exploding targets?  What could go wrong?

 

shooting at bells in a full size replica of an old church?  Bullets from the misses landed on a neighboring firing line.  Bullets that hit the bells some 15~20 feet in the air splattered randomly and rained lead on shooters.

 

Bullets so underpowered that they wouldn’t puncture cardboard at three feet.

 

Gotta admit that marksmanship kind of,  sort of mattered.  I liked that.

 I have been in the game since it started and I have never heard  nor have I seen such as you describe Guess I am just lucky.

 

Best Wishes

[Blackwater 53393]

I’ve gotta’ say that I do miss a lot of the stuff that we used to do when I first started SASS!! 
 

I enjoyed roping an old horse or cow to start the timer, or tripping the trap door on a gallows between shooting strings.  
 

I also liked shooting the Texas Star or a moving target and even trying to bust a clay bird tossed by a shotgun knockdown, (so long as there’s a makeup target when, (and I say when because I never got very good at hitting ‘em) I miss ‘em).

 

 I miss having lunch on the range, after, or even during the match!

 

 I used to leave around 7:00 in the morning to comfortably make a 9:30 start time and planned on spending a leisurely day at the range. I usually got home around 4:30 or so.

 

Last Saturday, I left at my usual time and got to the range with enough time to set up my cart set up, visit with old friends and meet a few new ones, and make arrangements for some help, logistically. We shot five stages that were reasonably neutral. Targets were decent distances, neither too close or too far.  The shooting sequences were fun and not really complex, (there was one stage that I saw shot eleven different ways among 15 shooters) and there was some, but not too much movement. There were three posses of thirteen to fifteen shooters.  We didn’t rush because it was hot and humid, but there wasn’t a lot of lollygagging either.

 

 I had a great time, but I kinda’ wished that we’d taken the time to break for a snack or had a light lunch after the match. I was loaded up, had handed off some guns that I wanted a friend,who wasn’t there, to look at, been invited to lunch away from the range, and was back on the interstate, (eight miles of backroads away) by 1:15.  That’s safety meeting at 9:30, prayer and pledge and first shot by 10:00! I didn’t take the lunch invite.  I was home, changed my clothes and had a late lunch by 2:30!

 

 I think that so many folks have lost some of their attention span and/or have become so used to instant gratification that they don’t care as much about the social aspect of the game!  

“It’s Saturday, fer cryin’ out loud!! What’s the rush?!?!?”

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11 by Blackwater 53393

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If a person has the inclination and desire to shoot some type of match you should be able to find something among all the options out there even if it's not SASS. But if you are waiting to find an organization that you agree with all their rules and procedures along with how they run the business, you will never find it.

[Matthew Duncan]

7 hours ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

 

This is what I don't understand.  You stopped shooting in SASS 20 years ago and you want to complain about the way it is run today?

Go back and reread the OP.   Stopped being a member of SASS 20 years ago.

[Griff]

Doc 10039,  you and most folks I shoot with are newbies... I started shooting cowboy matches at the Wild Bunch matches at Coto de Caza in 1985.  Think changes... all the ones for the good are seldom mentioned.  While I love shooting my 1851s (no conversions for me... I leave that to the sissies)... I don't particularly like the Frontiersman category.  I much prefer shooting two handed.  We shot matches that included stages with only one or maybe two guns...  As for the changes, the additon of the 2nd sixgun slowed things up and the fun stuff on or off the clock went by the wayside.  But, we got to shoot MORE!  Add in a separate category for Duelist... then Gunfighter, then Classic Cowboy/girl & B-Western;  and the customing went thru the roof.  A lot of those folks were already participating, but now they could measure themselves againt like minded folk.  I balked at the short stroked rifle until about 2 years ago... still getting used to it.  Sometimes I still go back to my stock rifles, just for giggles & grins.  I miss the shooting from prone, seated on a wooden horse, climbing steps and shooting from above the target plane... new dimension to shooting.  but for some places that elevated shooting is a safety issue... and at 73 it's harder for me to get up and down than it once was... No loss there!  A few places still have that elevated platform... (Thanks T-Bone)... There are issues with any organization, but... mostly they're the reflection of the few... Doesn't the squeeky wheel always get the grease?  But... looking in the rearview mirror of life, I've made some lifelong friends, met thousands of folks I never would have otherwise... and can't say that I don't admire any one of them.  Work keeps me from attending as many matches as I'd like, but still look forward to every match I get to attend.  Many friends have quit SASS for the very reasons you mention.  I feel it's their loss, I don't value their friendship any less, but do miss their company, and feel the many new folks would benefit from their acquaintance.

 

 Some folks think I'm slow... but no... just deliberate!  I'm still trying to that "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" to work for me!

 

You'd be welcome back at anytime.

[Rip Snorter]

Two things rendered me inactive in SASS (though I still pay dues), a third to a lesser extent.  The explosion of rules, many minutiae and no fun.  The need to preserve my ever diminishing hearing, which pretty much eliminated on range socialization, since I can't carry on a conversation with adequate hearing protection in place.  Last, my wonderful relocation to rural Montana.  Any match will require a minimum 150 mile round trip.  When I told some of my shooting buddies what I was doing their comment was "How can you leave all your friends behind?"  Certainly valid. though I had a small, close circle and most have passed on.  I will say, shooting alone isn't as much fun.  Living on the ranch, priceless.

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

I like shooting, shooting good is great, shooting bad is just as much fun if you have the correct  mind frame

[Dantankerous]

Rip Snorter

 

"Living on the ranch,  priceless."

 

I say AMEN to that.

 

I am sorry to hear most of your friends, your shooting buddies have passed on.

[Bison Bud]

Frankly, I think the evolution of SASS matches has been pretty much a natural and honest progression.  While we all shoot for the fun of it, many of us are competitive in nature and whenever competition is involved, steps must be taken to level the playing field and not give someone an unfair advantage.  Geese, it's bad enough that we have so many categories trying to make everyone happy, but it still boils down to the basic fact that one's speed across the course of fire is your score.  Honestly, adding the speed thing to it is what first attracted me to the game and kept me coming back.  Add to that the fact that I get to shoot my favorite firearms and the nostalgia of playing cowboy for a few hours, I think we have a winner.  Honestly, with one's speed across the course of fire being the basic concept of scoring and the game for that matter, is it really any wonder that things like bonus shots, throwing a lasso or tomahawk or virtually any other non-shooting activity on the clock have become unpopular?  I really don't see anything wrong with using these sort of activities as ways to start a stage as long as they are done off the clock and the shooting remains unaffected and think most of us out there would feel the same way.  Frankly, whether or not one throws a hat onto a fence post should have nothing to do with the outcome of a shooting match and this was very common in the "Good Old Days."  Anyway, as our game has evolved we have seen less and less of these non-shooting activities both on and off the clock and all I'm saying here is that I think this was a natural and honest progression in a game that is based on speed shooting.  I'm sorry if some see this as "Kind of Sad," but also feel that it was pretty much inevitable.  Good luck and good shooting to all.      

[Joe West]

    I shot in unaffiliated cas matches for a couple of years before joining sass. Debate at the time was of if our club would go SASS or NCOWS, some joined both. There were fewer than 500-600 members listed of either. We were having fun and some people were complaining about this or that even at the start, human nature.

 By the time I decided to go with SASS there were still a bit fewer than my number reflects as some numbers had been set aside for life members [ I declined that lesser number]. And fewer shooters as many were inactive having bought the membership as a badge for their collection. I met a few people over the years that did just that. And then when SASS became well known actually showed up to shoot and have fun.

     I still enjoy the matches, still think it's a good fit for some people to join SASS. Quitting  and then bringing a list of grievances or regrets does not help.

The clubs I still shoot with ,even though my health greatly restricts my activities, put on fun matches. How much I enjoy those matches is up to me. If you shot with me you'd see I really do enjoy it!

   Most of us that are my age or older have lost much of our family and friends. Those losses can be a heavy burden. It's up to us to make new friends and enjoy our life and do the best we can for those who cross our path. That's how I view the best way of remembering and honoring those that have gone on.

 

[Doc10039]

 There was a reason we got out of the sport at that time. These were only observations on sass as it is now. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers of some of you. That's all I have to say on this matter. WOW.