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1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

But is that because of the target size, or because it is a State Championship match?

Obviously, since every state match does not fill up in three days or pull 300 shooter Bordertown type numbers - there must be something about the match itself that attracts the shooters beyond "State Championship".

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After 20 years of shooting this game I'd be lying if I said my opinion on this topic hasn't changed over time. I remember the first time I set a pistol target at 7 yards at the club that I started at.

Matches are "generally" considered more fun when the targets are of generous size and placed closer to the firing line.   Additionally, the distances referenced from the handbooks are solely

At what point in SASS history do you believe speed was unimportant? The game was began by speed shooters that simply had the thought that a Cowboy IPSC version would be fun.   To the be

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3 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Hey, he's having fun.

Tee-ball

I thought having fun was the whole point of digging out the obsolete guns, dressing in silly clothes and yelling "Yeehaw"?

 

 

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Just now, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I thought having fun was the whole point of digging out the obsolete guns, dressing in silly clothes and yelling "Yeehaw"?

 

 

It is.... ISN'T THAT WHAT I SAID!

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1 hour ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Is that because of target size, or because it is a State Championship match?

Bordertown has many things going for it besides target size and being a state championship.  It is held in a historic, Old West location.  Weather in October is consistently very good.  There is onsite camping and plenty of nearby full-service campgrounds.  Tombstone has plenty restaurants and motel rooms.  All these positives help draw shooters.

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Always and interesting topic and mildly entertaining. I have my own thoughts but there's not reason to beat a dead horse because the wire is not for changing minds. I will say that any comparisons to other disciplines is moot as our safety record speaks for itself after 40 years. At some point in time you do have to come to the conclusion that we are shooting really bang bangs (or poof poofs) at real steel. Short of placing pistol steel at minimum 25 yards and rifle at a 100 there will always be splatter of some sort. It's also not the match directors duty to turn people into shooters. That's up to the individual. As with any stage design approach I always look at the "why". There are good intentions and there are not so good ones. Time always has a way of hashing that out. 

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On to page #4!! :lol::P

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Duece, thank you for posting.

 

I ALWAYS appreciate reading comments from the very top of the "pile".

 

There is a reason why they are at the top.  I wish they would all comment on interesting topics like this one. 

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5 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Always and interesting topic and mildly entertaining. I have my own thoughts but there's not reason to beat a dead horse because the wire is not for changing minds. I will say that any comparisons to other disciplines is moot as our safety record speaks for itself after 40 years. At some point in time you do have to come to the conclusion that we are shooting really bang bangs (or poof poofs) at real steel. Short of placing pistol steel at minimum 25 yards and rifle at a 100 there will always be splatter of some sort. It's also not the match directors duty to turn people into shooters. That's up to the individual. As with any stage design approach I always look at the "why". There are good intentions and there are not so good ones. Time always has a way of hashing that out. 

I wish all Match Directors felt that way.

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3 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

On to page #4!! :lol::P

Rye, it don't count as a 4 pager if half a page is you posting about it going 4 pages!:P

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Big and close is like a drag race.  How fast can you go without crashing.  I don't understand how shooters do not think it is a challenge.  It is just a different kind of challenge.  Every discipline has an edge whether big and close or further away.  If you are not challenged, try and move up on the leader board.  I do not think most shooters know what it takes to be in the top 10 percent at a state, national or world event.  It is hard work, dedication to the discipline, and a winning attitude just like in any other sport.  Lanny Basham writes that 5 percent of the shooters win 95 percent of the awards. There is a reason.  The spatter from targets has been addressed.  I sure do not think it is wrong to like to shoot targets further away.  Just does not sell many matches as well in my nick of the country.  You will get out of SASS what you put into it.  There is nothing wrong with just shooting the old guns and enjoying the friendships SASS brings.  

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Heck fire, just getting a sock on without snagging a toe nail is enough challenge for me--

 

Seriously, every person I take to a SASS match says that there is no way they can miss, and then they do, over and over. I rarely get a clean match.

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13 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Big and close is like a drag race.  How fast can you go without crashing.  I don't understand how shooters do not think it is a challenge.  It is just a different kind of challenge.  Every discipline has an edge whether big and close or further away.  If you are not challenged, try and move up on the leader board.  I do not think most shooters know what it takes to be in the top 10 percent at a state, national or world event.  It is hard work, dedication to the discipline, and a winning attitude just like in any other sport.  Lanny Basham writes that 5 percent of the shooters win 95 percent of the awards. There is a reason.  The spatter from targets has been addressed.  I sure do not think it is wrong to like to shoot targets further away.  Just does not sell many matches as well in my nick of the country.  You will get out of SASS what you put into it.  There is nothing wrong with just shooting the old guns and enjoying the friendships SASS brings.  

Well said.  Especially the part I've high-lighted.  China Camp coached my wife & son when they started, it was the first time I'd heard, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast."   I think it was after his 2nd EOT win that I asked how often he practiced.  He said in the year leading up to the 1st win he fired about 45,000 rounds in practice, 2-3 nights a week.  Just in practice, not including monthly or other matches.  Dedicated cowboy action practice.   He then told me in order to defend that win, he upped both his practice schedule and the number of rounds.  Practicing 3, ofttimes 4 nights a week, to the tune of 50,000 rounds over the year!  I've heard it said that if you take your 1% God-given talent, add 98% hard work & dedication to practice like it was a full time job, have the necessary 1% luck, and you could be an EOT Champion!

 

I started cowboy action shooting in the 5th or 6th year of the game's history.   It WAS a different game.  But, it WAS all about speed.  But, conditions for developing that speed were different.  We didn't have AR500 steel, so cratering was a problem.  Solve that by moving targets farther away & limiting velocities.   Plus if you've ever bought sheet steel to make targets, you'll recognize you get a lot more targets per sheet if they're smaller!  FYI, most bullets that "bounce" off targets are on the upper level of bHn, and of a lower velocity.  If your cast bullets are higher than 18bHn and less than around 600fps, you might be part of the problem, depending on the type and condition of the targets.   IMO, reclaimed shot is also more of a danger than new.

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On 4/10/2021 at 8:41 AM, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

But is that because of the target size, or because it is a State Championship match?

Too many out of state Shooters clamoring to get in for the only reason to be State Championship status.

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4 minutes ago, Chuck Steak said:

On the issue of target size and distance, size doesnt matter

Up close, or far far away, it all misses the same darned way....   LOL. 

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A "big & close" stage is like a dessert for me. I appreciate and enjoy very much to get one (or two) and would be unsatisfied to leave without one! But I would definitely not want to have only desserts for the whole menu as I like variety and balance in food as well as in CAS matches :)

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6 hours ago, Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 said:

Too many out of state Shooters clamoring to get in for the only reason to be State Championship status.

Never said it was the only reason. When you have a ton of shooters, you have to make the stages quick. I get that. Just suggesting that a State Championship is a bigger factor than Big and Close targets.  

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2 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Never said it was the only reason. When you have a ton of shooters, you have to make the stages quick. I get that. Just suggesting that a State Championship is a bigger factor than Big and Close targets.  

You would be incorrect.

Show me another shoot - ANY shoot - that sells out in one to two days.

 

Bordertown has a long and storied history as THE big and close shoot.

This reputation and sell out trend began long before it moved to Tombstone (just to remove the location as reason for its popularity); and it was doing it before some version of Big and Close became common.

 

I have shot maybe 7 or 8 Arizona State Championships - in Tucson and Tombstone.

I'm not from Arizona; I can't be an Arizona Champion (and I don't need smart aleck comments informing me that I couldn't be an Arizona Champion even if I DID live there because of my lack of speed) - but I don't travel to Tombstone to shoot the Championship match; I go to shoot BORDERTOWN.

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

OK, I'm sold.  I need to shoot Bordertown.

Good luck with that. I have been waiting for years to be here in AZ so I can attend Bordertown. My first year here and I'm 47 on the waiting list. I have a feeling it will be 2022 before I go.

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On 4/8/2021 at 7:59 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

This!
 

If you’re shooting 14 second stages Robyn I’ll accept your statement, otherwise no. Hitting multiple targets with 24 shots out of 4 different guns in under 16 seconds is in fact challenging for all but the very few.

  And getting the targets closer and bigger makes it easier to do.  Shooting sub 16 second stage at 7 yards is a ton harder than doing it at 3.   

 

Big close is basically the equalization of participation awards.  a way to make a mediocre shooter with low confidence/self esteem feel better about themselves.   Same as adding more categories so everybody gets a shiny buckle.

   It is what the sport is evolving to.  Take it for what it is.

 

 

   Before you ask. Yes I do  shoot under 16 quite a bit.   Generally dipping below 12 at least a couple times a year.  

 Personally I'd be prouder of a 20 sec stage at 7 yards than a 13 sec stage at 3.

  But that's why I wouldn't go to a match set that close,  and there is no way I'd allow my kids to shoot at one either

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2 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

  And getting the targets closer and bigger makes it easier to do.  Shooting sub 16 second stage at 7 yards is a ton harder than doing it at 3.   

 

Big close is basically the equalization of participation awards.  a way to make a mediocre shooter with low confidence/self esteem feel better about themselves.   Same as adding more categories so everybody gets a shiny buckle.

   It is what the sport is evolving to.  Take it for what it is.

 

 

   Before you ask. Yes I do  shoot under 16 quite a bit.   Generally dipping below 12 at least a couple times a year.  

 Personally I'd be prouder of a 20 sec stage at 7 yards than a 13 sec stage at 3.

  But that's why I wouldn't go to a match set that close,  and there is no way I'd allow my kids to shoot at one either

Different strokes for different folks. 

 

It's my opinion that significant differences in target size and distance change the challenges shooters face when shooting them.  I think the truth of that statement is self evident.  You're free to disagree.

 

It's also my opinion that there isn't a 'right' preference in terms of big and close or small and far.  Some like one type, some like the other, some take what comes and try to get the most fun out of it.  Count me in the last group.

 

I shot the South Carolina State Match last weekend.  It was a lot of fun. Definitely not big and close, nor small and far, lots of movement, with some interesting challenges, some almost 'throwback' in nature.  10 stages, only three in the teens, which for me seems slow, but for that match was pretty decent.  If they have it next year I'll be there.

 

I'll be shooting Alabama State soon, and based on past experience I anticipate it will be very, very different, but equally fun.

 

Obviously you're free to choose what matches you let your kids attend.  The two of mine who shoot with me are free to attend any match I do, and I'm pretty much open to any match that follows SASS rules and is focused on giving the shooter a fun match.

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 " And getting the targets closer and bigger makes it easier to do.  Shooting sub 16 second stage at 7 yards is a ton harder than doing it at 3. "

 

Many shooters here just won't acknowledge this. Not saying there's no challenge at three yards, but it's a little easier to go fast and hit the target then 7 yards. That's all. If it wasn't a little easier why would some matches bother setting up giant targets at minimum distances. They will say that people still miss at 3 yards but not acknowledge that they do miss less often. Otherwise there'd be no reason to spend the money for 20" or more targets if it didn't change anything.

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1 minute ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:
 

 " And getting the targets closer and bigger makes it easier to do.  Shooting sub 16 second stage at 7 yards is a ton harder than doing it at 3. "

 

Many shooters here just won't acknowledge this. Not saying there's no challenge at three yards, but it's a little easier to go fast and hit the target then 7 yards. That's all. If it wasn't a little easier why would some matches bother setting up giant targets at minimum distances. They will say that people still miss at 3 yards but not acknowledge that they do miss less often. Otherwise there'd be no reason to spend the money for 20" or more targets if it didn't change anything.

I shot a match a while back, the target was huge, so huge it was dead.  That didn't matter, because misses didn't count, but 10 rifle, 10 pistol, and 4 shotgun rounds had to be fired.  It was fun.  Lots of people having to go around again with their pistols, jacked out rifle rounds, it was a different kind of challenge.  Obviously an extreme example of my point, but I believe it's valid.

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33 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

  And getting the targets closer and bigger makes it easier to do.  Shooting sub 16 second stage at 7 yards is a ton harder than doing it at 3.   

Who said ANYTHING contrary to this?

Nobody said anything about Big & Close being of excessive difficulty or challenge or anything of the sort.

We said it is FUN.

 

The vast majority of us in this game are not you.

We are not as quick, talented or practiced as you.

Most of us are never going to run 12 second stages, experience sub 6 seconds in the quarter mile or drive in excess of 220 miles an hours around a superspeedway. 

 

But if you're used to a Chevy Aveo and get to experience a Corvette? 

Doggone, I think I'm John Force.

But if your top speed before was 70mph on 1-94 and you get to see the speedometer needle swing past 120?

Dang, this must be what Richard Petty felt like.

But if you're used to 30 second stages and you just ran a 24?

Oh wow - Call me Lead Dispencer.

Or the simplest example is the snail riding on a turtle and screaming "WHEEEE!"

 

That person (or snail) experiencing SPEED that they have never known before just had something happen that they may remember for the rest of their life.  

Someone with your exemplary skills should be able to create your own challenges - regardless of the target placement or array.

Or perhaps seek out a more difficult discipline (I've heard they are out there).

 

As for for the rest of us mediocre, low self esteem, participation trophy dreamers that are well aware of our limitations; but for a brief few moments after the beep get to feel like we are John Force, Richard Petty and Lead Dispencer all rolled into one...

We will continue to seek out the matches that make us smile, make us cheer and make us scream "Wheeee!" 

 

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I guess I need to try some different clubs.  At my last shoot my fastest stage was just over 45 seconds and had 15 misses on the day.  Still was second overall.  The least number of misses of anyone was 4, no cleans on the day, although there were cleans on individual stages.  Can’t imagine a 15 second stage.   

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I shot a match a while back, the target was huge, so huge it was dead.  That didn't matter, because misses didn't count, but 10 rifle, 10 pistol, and 4 shotgun rounds had to be fired....

We did that around here a few times 20 years ago, but we used a giant sheet of cardboard on a wooden frame at around 2 yards.  No patching of holes, just attempt to shoot through it.  That might be a little safer than a steel target.  Guns were staged on table.  It was fun.  A lot of people had never had the opportunity to shoot their guns as fast as they could cycle them, and it showed. :)

 

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low confidence... poor self esteem... participation awards... sheeesh!

 

This is supposed to be about entertainment.  If I just wanted to target shoot, I'd stay at my local range at just stick one target out there.  The bulk of SASS members will rarely win anything.  I rarely rise above the last page in the overall standings.  As a card carrying member of the old, slow, and gimpy fun seekers club, I'm going to pay my money to the venues that offer the most grins!

 

Make it too difficult, more misses, longer times, for the middle of the pack, (and those of us riding drag), and you'll see the attendance at matches plummet.

 

I'm looking forward to meeting Griff at EoT, we're shooting cap guns!   I won't win anything there either.  But, I am hoping for a fun time.     

 

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On the other hand, those "good old days" with all the small far targets and all the other stuff that went away - that was when SASS was experiencing the fastest growth.  Certainly there were a lot of reasons for that.  But then as targets got easier, we get spoiled, and then targets like we started with seem a lot harder.

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1 hour ago, McCandless said:

I'm looking forward to meeting Griff at EoT, we're shooting cap guns!   I won't win anything there either.  But, I am hoping for a fun time.     

I believe I'm posse'd up with Tex... so a LOT OF GRINS & GAFFAWS will be had!  I'm likewise looking forward to meeting you, Sir.  I just have to remember my promise to shoot like I'm trying for the Top Spot.... (chuckle, chuckle...)

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14 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Who said ANYTHING contrary to this?

Nobody said anything about Big & Close being of excessive difficulty or challenge or anything of the sort.

We said it is FUN.

 

The vast majority of us in this game are not you.

We are not as quick, talented or practiced as you.

Most of us are never going to run 12 second stages, experience sub 6 seconds in the quarter mile or drive in excess of 220 miles an hours around a superspeedway. 

 

But if you're used to a Chevy Aveo and get to experience a Corvette? 

Doggone, I think I'm John Force.

But if your top speed before was 70mph on 1-94 and you get to see the speedometer needle swing past 120?

Dang, this must be what Richard Petty felt like.

But if you're used to 30 second stages and you just ran a 24?

Oh wow - Call me Lead Dispencer.

Or the simplest example is the snail riding on a turtle and screaming "WHEEEE!"

 

That person (or snail) experiencing SPEED that they have never known before just had something happen that they may remember for the rest of their life.  

Someone with your exemplary skills should be able to create your own challenges - regardless of the target placement or array.

Or perhaps seek out a more difficult discipline (I've heard they are out there).

 

As for for the rest of us mediocre, low self esteem, participation trophy dreamers that are well aware of our limitations; but for a brief few moments after the beep get to feel like we are John Force, Richard Petty and Lead Dispencer all rolled into one...

We will continue to seek out the matches that make us smile, make us cheer and make us scream "Wheeee!" 

 

A few mistakes in that belief.  Your comparing apples to oranges.   

  So your 16 second stage makes you feel like john force?   Lead despencer?  Except. What would he shoot the stage in?  

 

Really makes that 16 seem slow doesnt it.   

 

You can keep your illusions of grandeur all you want but it still doesnt make you John Force.

 

I started like 10 or eleven years ago. Shooting 60 to 80 second stages.  A lot of the time coming in last place. Slowly I got better through putting in effort. Never did I try to cheapen the efforts of others by wanting an easy way.   Back then seeing someone shoot a 16 was a huge deal.  Something to be talked about for months. Now pretty much any match somebody will shoot one or below. It's that common.

   It's all about integrity.    Set up a stand and deliver stage at 3 yards one 6' x 6' target.   Sure you can shoot it under 16. Most will under 20. If all your doing is looking to tell people you shot a 16 sec stage. There you go. You got it. But really what do you have?  Your still not going to feel like lead despencer because he will do it probably under 10.  If all your doing is chasing a number it's a pretty hollow victory. 

 

 Numbers are just numbers.   Shooting a stage with with 80 ft of movement under 20 with targets at 7 yards is an achievement.   Shooting a 16 with targets at 3 is meaningless. 

 

  Why are you trying to be anyone but creeker?  If creeker shoots the stage at his best, it doesn't matter if it's a 16, or a 60. Be proud of what you did.  If you get done with a stage and say,  "that is the best I could ever shoot it."   I am going to be cheering as loud as I can.  

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33 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

 Numbers are just numbers.   Shooting a stage with with 80 ft of movement under 20 with targets at 7 yards is an achievement.   Shooting a 16 with targets at 3 is meaningless. 

 

Meaningless to whom?  I believe this is one of the most family friendly shooting sports in existence.  Why?  Far and away the number one reason has to be the people in SASS.  But I believe 2nd place goes to the matches themselves.  The entire family, no matter how skilled, can have fun at our matches.  My last belief is this is Creeker's point.  He's not saying HE feels like John Force etc.  He's saying shooters of lower abilities get to have more fun because the match itself is fun instead of being punishing.  Look at Still Hand Bill's post.  Not one single clean shooter for an entire match? How is that fun? As is said time and time again, we're in the entertainment business. If matches cease to be entertaining they cease to exist.    

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