Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

There is no 7.5" requirement. I was just sayin' you could shoot 'em if you wanted to.

The pocket pistol rules that you quoted are for the pocket pistol side match. Not main match. SHB pg 31 You can shoot BP pistols with 7 1/2 inch barrels in the main match if you want to. SHB pg 14

If I saw the 45 come out on the other end, that would work for me... I wonder if carrying a 45-70 round filled with shot and a big bullet on top would do the job a bit better.

The SE Regional, last year, adopted a much similar convention. They called it standing 'at shooter's discretion.'

I know it is going to extremes, but if shots 7, 8, 9, or 10 didn't HIT either a buffalo or a rifle plate, they must be scored as a MISS. The instructions did not provide a shooter the opportunity to make up a MISS on any of the last four shots. In this case, however, shots 7-10 all HIT the appropriate type of target using the appropriate type of firearm. SHB pg 22

You're getting a bit ahead of me, but we'll get there. Let us start back at the two questions you answered: Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo? YES Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions? No That 7th round could go a lot of places. Let us examine them for a minute. That 7th round could have HIT the buffalo. That is scored as a HIT. That 7th round could have just barely MISS the buffalo, going right over the top of it. That is scored as a MISS. That 7th round could have HIT a pistol target. That is scored as a MISS. That 7th round could have just barely MISS the plate on the rack, going just to the left of that cowboy plate. That is scored as a MISS. That 7th round could have HIT the physical plate rack, not hitting any plates. that is scored as a MISS. But that 7th round HIT the rifle plate. As the 7th round should have hit a buffalo, they earned a PROCEDURAL. Now, the stage writer originally claimed that the 7th round was scored as a MISS as it did not HIT a buffalo. That was in error: He has since recanted: So, we are on the same page: At the time the 7th round HIT the rifle plate, the shooter earned a PROCEDURAL. They still have three rounds left to fire, the first of which may hit either of the buffalo targets. And, we still have to figure out what to do with the plate that was HIT with the 7th round. Now, back to your statement: Am I understanding you correctly when you say that a shooter has no opportunity to engage a downed target?

Great. So, let's get back to the OP. let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy) (ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_ Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) _X_X_X_X___X_ Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) ___X_X_X___X_ Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding)_____X_X___X_ Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) _____X_____X_ Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack (ding) _____X_____X_ Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate. (ding) ___________X_ Leaving one plate on the rack at this point with 4 more shots to go. Now, let us look at the rest of the instructions..."Then, alternate on the 2 buffalos for and (sic) additional 4 rounds." So, we have the following setup: (ding) ___________X_ [buffalo] [buffalo] Shot 7 must now hit either of the two buffalo targets. Shooter misses both buffalo targets but the round hits and knocks down the remaining plate. (ding) _____________ [buffalo] [buffalo] Did the 7th round hit the correct type target, i.e. rifle target with legally acquired ammo? Did the 7th round hit the correct target that the round should have hit given the stage instructions?

@Crisco... You say that they earned the P on the 7th shot - i.e. there were no Ps committed in the first six shots, however the guy who wrote the stage indicated that the P was earned when 'Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it...They chose to shoot re-engage the 5 plate, "P"' i.e. the stage writer indicated that they earned the P on the 6th shot. For @Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 and others who specify that the shooter got the P on the 6th shot, consider this new scenario following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy) (ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_ Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 1 (ding) ___X_X_X_X_X_ Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 2 (ding) _____X_X_X_X_ Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 3 (ding)_______X_X_X_ Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 4 (ding) _________X_X_ Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses plate 5 (ding) _________X_X_ Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down plate 5 (ding) ___________X_ and a gust of wind, a shimmy in the rack, an act of the almighty himself causes the last plate to fall (ding) _____________ Leaving a clean rack at this point. Is there a P in these first 6 shots? Is there a miss in there since only 5 of the plates were hit?

While y'all try and figure out where it specifies the order at which the plates on the rack were to be engaged, let's look at the following plate rack engaged according to the given instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack" (pretend that each X represents a cowboy) (ding) _X_X_X_X_X_X_ Shot 1 can hit any of the six standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) _X_X_X_X___X_ Shot 2 can hit any of the five remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) ___X_X_X___X_ Shot 3 can hit any of the four remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding)_____X_X___X_ Shot 4 can hit any of the three remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate (ding) _____X_____X_ Shot 5 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter misses the rack (ding) _____X_____X_ Shot 6 can hit any of the two remaining standing plates. Shooter knocks down a plate. (ding) _____X_______ Leaving one plate on the rack at this point. Where, following the stage instructions "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack", did they earn a P when shooting it in that manner up to and including the 6th shot?

Where does it specify in the shooting instructions the order at which the plates on the rack were to be engaged, other than the rack had to be engaged with the first 6 rounds?

At what point was the P earned?

What about the shooter who misses Target five, re-engages Target five and hits it, and Target 6 just falls over at the same time? Did that also change the condition of the stage?

For the folks wanting the shooter to load an 11th round to engage the other buffalo to clear the miss, please answer these two things: What is the penalty for shooting 11 rifle rounds down range when the stage instructions only specify that you shoot 10, expecting that the round was carried to the line in an approved manner? What is the penalty if the shooter shot the first six rounds hitting six plates and knocking them down, had an AD sending the 7th round over the top of the plate rack (nowhere near the buffalo targets) and into the back berm, and then alternated between the 2 buffalo targets for 3 rounds? Correctly understanding these 2 points will help in understanding the OP.

Where, in the stage instructions, does it specify the order that the first 6 shots on the plate rack are to be engaged other than "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack"? You cannot judge the shooter's intent on what target the 5th bullet was intended for as it could have been, by stage instructions, designated for 1 of 2 targets left on the rack at that point in time regardless of what the shooter did before and/or after that action. Stage required 10 rounds out of the rifle.Did he shoot 10? It is also important to note that the rack AND the buffalo targets are all 'rifle' targets. Some of this can be simplified by focusing on the rounds instead of the targets when going through the flow chart. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo? No. They shot the correct number of rounds, however the 5th round did not hit a target. Assess Misses. Wait...Any knockdowns that remain standing or are not made up with the shotgun will count as misses. Shooter rang the bell with the shotgun to make up the miss. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for misses No. the 7th round hit one of the targets designated for rounds 1-6. Did the target placement cause an issue(condensed) No. Assess procedural

Joe, I would appreciate it if my quote was not taken out of its context. My reply was to another specific scenario, which I quoted in my post. His stated scenario had no order specified (emphasis added). In that reply, the poster inaccurately attributed a P to the shooter as there was no order specified. Read my other post where I agree with you on the order for the OP for the P awarded to the OP Although, where are you scoring a miss? Best case, all the plates are down when he finishes shooting the rifle, the 7th shot, where he scored the P, hit a correct type target, although the incorrect target to be engaged at that moment. In the worst case, he shot the SG to make up for the downed plate he did not hit with the rifle.