Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Target distance


Robyn Gold

Recommended Posts

Have fun and shoot.  In AZ, there are many clubs.  Some shoot further than others.  Gateway is right on.  Start with a challenge and improve it, but most important enjoy it.  I've been shooting SASS since 2011 and still love it.  It is  a challenging sport or fun for someone to shoot the old guns and shoot clean.  Two months ago I forgot to bring enough score cards.  One of our shooters shot his first clean match in several years.  I could tell he was down.  I went home and copied the results on an official score card and presented it to him the next match.  I could tell it meant something to him.  Make it what you want, not what everyone says it should be. That is the beauty of CAS.   Will not forget them again!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 122
  • Created
  • Last Reply
7 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

You shoot USPSA clean?  No misses,  don't hit no shoots, no procedurals? How much USPSA have you shot? A clean match is not a thing in USPSA like it is in SASS. They pretty much only refer to no procedurals as shooting clean. They don't announce or give out clean match awards.

Yes, clean.  I understand the difference for what it means to shoot a clean match in different disciplines. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh c'mon let's get this going! We're only on page two?:o:P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Not trying to start a fight but when I see statements like this I have to ask....

Every match you have been to, have you shot it clean?

And if you did were you amongst the top 2-3 shooters in overall time?

The challenge in CAS is not just hitting them but hitting them all and quickly and in the correct order.

I also shoot IDPA and three gun, admittedly not very often perhaps once or twice a year.... I like the longer runs in 3 gun and the accuracy requirements of IDPA.

That said I am usually in the top 5 or 6 overall (local matches) and if I had the time/ammo to practice them I would probably do better. I don't see them as  particularly difficult to be competitive in.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

This!
 

If you’re shooting 14 second stages Robyn I’ll accept your statement, otherwise no. Hitting multiple targets with 24 shots out of 4 different guns in under 16 seconds is in fact challenging for all but the very few.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bottom line is this.... IT DOESN'T MATTER where the targets are placed or what the distance is as long as IT IS SAFE. Folks will decide for themselves what they want. There are matches that use Big and Close targets and their are matches that put more emphasis on Game Playing with Standard Targets and placement. Both of them have their following and neither of them exclusively represent CAS. I see very few matches now days that use small and far targets. I don't attend them. Things change and if we expect to continue then we must be willing to adjust. I played Softball for 25 yrs. I started out in AAA Fast pitch. I lasted a few years but I eventually moved down to the Slow Pitch league. For the next many years I slowly drifted down the ladder until I ended up in the old duffer league. None of us had what it took to play the game at the level we once did but we were all still playing and having fun with our peers, and that was what it was all about. CAS seems to me to be similar, we move down as we slow down.  It is not a hard game to play. The challenge of the game varies. For some it is just finishing a match or even a stage. For some it is shooting a clean match or stage. For some it is seeing who can operated these guns the fasted and who can move the few steps required in the shortest amount of time. There is a place in this game for all levels of ability. This game is more about having fun than just shooting. If you don't believe that, go attend a Championship USPSA or IPSC match. THAT is where you will see some fantastic shooting, but not near as much laughter. 

 

Snakebite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/7/2021 at 12:36 AM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Matches are "generally" considered more fun when the targets are of generous size and placed closer to the firing line.

 

Additionally, the distances referenced from the handbooks are solely recommendations.

 

And with the use of high quality, properly set steel placed on well designed stands those targets pose no more splatter danger at 3 yards than at 5 yards or 8 yards.

Pitted, cupped steel on poor frames is a danger at 10 yards.

 

I have placed steel at 3 yards before (many, many times) without injury - because I insisted on good plates, hung with hangers that force correct angles to direct splash downward into the ground - while also taking into account frame locations and ground consistency.

 

We are shooting lead projectiles at steel targets - there is always an opportunity for rearward splash. 

It is why we require eye protection and good match directors will do everything they can to mitigate the risk no matter what target array they set.

 

But if the steel or the stands are splashing back and "imbedding" lead into peoples faces - there is a much bigger problem with the steel or the stands than the distance.

 

Or to put it another way...

Lead coming back hard enough and fast enough to draw blood at 3 yards - does not suddenly turn into a rainbow colored unicorns good night kiss at 5, 8 or 10 yards.

 

 

Large, close targets are more fun? How about the further out the more of a challenge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Grass Range said:

Large, close targets are more fun? How about the further out the more of a challenge

My point exactly. Ha

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Grass Range said:

Large, close targets are more fun? How about the further out the more of a challenge

If YOU find that "more fun" - good for you. 

 

The issue with "challenging" (and I am not implying you are using the word this way) is the word has become code for a certain type of match intended to handicap (slow) the faster shooters in an ill fated attempt to "level the playing field". 

Usually by shooters that believe, "if  only more emphasis was placed on accuracy - than I could win or place better".   

Convincing themselves; that fast shooter that can empty 24 rounds from 4 different guns (on target) in 15 seconds is lacks the ability of finding a sight picture on a further target.

 

Go to a Bullseye match and listen to the hilarious banter...

You'll hear crickets chirping between shots.

 

If our game is just as much about social interaction and the folks you spend time with as it is rhe shooting; then you want the shooting to be a catalyst for laughter and good natured ribbing.

 

Most shooting sports are about the challenge of being perfect (the targets are smaller, more distant, moving, etc.) - because of its simplicity; Cowboy is more about the challenge to the skilled shooter of going as quickly as possible - always on the razors edge of running the train off the cliff.

While at the exact same time providing an environment where the slower, lesser skilled shooter can enjoy success at the same time with hits on target (albeit at a slower pace).

 

Missing targets is NO fun.

Making steel ring is a blast.

Making steel ring quickly is even better.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What Creeker said!  I have participated in SASS since 2000 and have been a club officer(for many years), gopher, volunteer at multiple clubs in the Central Texas.  Every few years we hear the same question and comments about target distance, more challenging, slow fast guys down, etc...  Here is the truth, the guys at the top will be at the top regardless of the target placement, more challenging makes it harder for everyone.  It takes practice and commitment to be at the top, working on the skills to improve.  Splatter comes as noted in earlier responses from poor target material and stand design in addition to the ground.  One of the clubs I shoot at has several stages that have rock that cause most of the splatter, we have been working on solutions to help but even with targets further out it still splatters.

 

We seem to forget we are in the ENTERTAINMENT business!  If you make it more difficult or challenging you WILL lose participants.  I use to go every year to an annual match here in Texas that had/has the reputation of small targets and max distance and very complicated scenarios with P traps.  It was their goal to "level" the playing field.  My last match there I got so frustrated with the way the match was run, that I have not been back,  The attitude of the club officers also gave me pause to spend my money elsewhere, and before you ask, I usually finished in the Top Five of my category, so it wasn't just about placing well.  This for me, created a stressful experience and was not pleasant.  I have heard the club has recently made improvements so I will probably give them a chance in the future.  People like to have clean matches, be competitive and have fun.  I have always enjoyed the people I have met and the social aspect is as attractive as the possibility of a "win".  

 

The sport allows for people to find their own way to "have fun", whether it is running at the top edge of speed and competition, shooting clean, or costuming.  There is not single way to have fun!

 

By the way, Gunfighters Rule!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Robyn Gold said:

My point exactly. Ha

You mentioned the simplicity of Cowboy as an opportunity for you and your child to enjoy a shooting sport TOGETHER.

 

That is exactly what cowboy is supposed to be.

A simple course of fire that ALL skill levels can enjoy a level of satisfactory hits on target - the difference being not necessarily the number of hits but the TIME required to get those hits.

 

I brought my daughter into cowboy when she was 5 years old so she could interact with other posse members, learn about being part of a group working together and feel success by hitting the EXACT SAME targets as her dad.

She shot slowly at first and as she progressed - she increased her challenge by changing categories (moved herself to Cowgirl when she was 8 because she wanted to shoot against the grown-ups).  She then moved to Lady Gunfighter to increase her challenge and skills.

 

All told she has shot with me for the last 16 years - all because the initial simplicity of the game allowed her to find and create her own challenge by increasing speed or changing shooting style.

 

Shooters that can challenge themselves to find tenths of a second in shooting and technique have a lot of fun in Cowboy. 

Those that must be challenged by the the difficulty of the course bore and move on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Just a different kind of challenge, but not necessarily more challenging.

True

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If YOU find that "more fun" - good for you. 

 

The issue with "challenging" (and I am not implying you are using the word this way) is the word has become code for a certain type of match intended to handicap (slow) the faster shooters in an ill fated attempt to "level the playing field". 

Usually by shooters that believe, "if  only more emphasis was placed on accuracy - than I could win or place better".   

Convincing themselves; that fast shooter that can empty 24 rounds from 4 different guns (on target) in 15 seconds is lacks the ability of finding a sight picture on a further target.

 

Go to a Bullseye match and listen to the hilarious banter...

You'll hear crickets chirping between shots.

 

If our game is just as much about social interaction and the folks you spend time with as it is rhe shooting; then you want the shooting to be a catalyst for laughter and good natured ribbing.

 

Most shooting sports are about the challenge of being perfect (the targets are smaller, more distant, moving, etc.) - because of its simplicity; Cowboy is more about the challenge to the skilled shooter of going as quickly as possible - always on the razors edge of running the train off the cliff.

While at the exact same time providing an environment where the slower, lesser skilled shooter can enjoy success at the same time with hits on target (albeit at a slower pace).

 

Missing targets is NO fun.

Making steel ring is a blast.

Making steel ring quickly is even better.

 

 

 

We do not use a timer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Grass Range said:

We do not use a timer

Then, with all due respect, you do not shoot Cowboy Action.

 

Perhaps you shoot some version of a target shooting discipline utilizing cowboy era firearms.

 

And that may be great fun as well; we have all enjoyed an afternoon out with friends playing,

"Can you see that?  Bet you can't hit it." 

 

But that is not Cowboy Action, not SASS - never has been.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Then, with all due respect, you do not shoot Cowboy Action.

 

Perhaps you shoot some version of a target shooting discipline utilizing cowboy era firearms.

 

And that may be great fun as well; we have all enjoyed an afternoon out with friends playing,

"Can you see that?  Bet you can't hit it." 

 

But that is not Cowboy Action, not SASS - never has been.

 

 

A club where I am a member shoots Cowboy Silhouette.  Long-barreled, lever action rifles and cast bullets but no timer.  They have fun.  I might join them sometime to prepare for a SASS side match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

A club where I am a member shoots Cowboy Silhouette.  Long-barreled, lever action rifles and cast bullets but no timer.  They have fun.  I might join them sometime to prepare for a SASS side match.

I know others that play that same game and they enjoy it very much.

But as you know, while it uses the same equipment - it is not the same game. 

And your expectations are different from a silhouette match to an action match.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I know others that play that same game and they enjoy it very much.

But as you know, while it uses the same equipment - it is not the same game. 

And your expectations are different from a silhouette match to an action match.

 

 

This is so.  All action shooting matches I've ever seen use a shot timer.  We sometimes have side matches where time is a secondary consideration.  Perhaps those who dislike timers but like 19th century firearms should seek out other shooting sports.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread sure has gone off the topic of close targets causing splatter.

 

As for nature of the game, I see a lot of parallels to golf.  I'm a middle of the road golfer but still enjoy the game, even though I usually fall in the bottom third in scrambles.  Same with SASS; I still enjoy it, even though I usually end up only "beating" 20-30% of the shooters.  I Just try to beat my previous average and have fun.

 

A golf course tried to make things more challenging by moving the tees and adding traps and hazards, to the point where often I had no chance at a shot.  It no longer was fun so I quit going there.  The same would happen in Cowboy Action if they drastically added things.  However, I'd enjoy a few extra things like moving targets or shotgun pop-up fliers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robyn Gold,

Here's my advice. I believe NCOWS had posses in Texas. Attend an NCOWS match and see how you like it. They have targets a little farther out and are a little more challenging. (You will notice Raton Rick "liking" a few comments on here. I have shot with Raton Rick at NCOWS and SASS matches. He is a top shooter either place.)

 

I personally like SASS and NCOWS. (I hope to start an NCOWS posse here in central Arizona.) To me, it's like eating out. While I have favorite restaurants, I don't like going to the same one every week. Each one has something that makes it special. CAS is the same way. Enjoy SASS. Enjoy NCOWS. Variety is the spice of life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/6/2021 at 10:50 PM, Robyn Gold said:

Howdy, I am new to all this and trying to absorb everything still. I have been to watch a few local matches and  had one thing bugging me while watching, why are the steel targets set up so close? Is it a rule that some have to be 3 yards away? I have seen folks get pieces of lead imbedded in their face at that distance so just wondering why it’s not set out farther for safety reasons if nothing else. 

image.gif.31c459a1bda4d4892286746789d3faa6.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/7/2021 at 1:12 PM, Robyn Gold said:

Interesting, at this distance there's not much of a challenge really, you don't even have to aim, just point and shoot, ha Though that is part of why I think it will be a good starting point for my son, easier for him to hit and hopefully get more involved in shooting matches with me wether CAS or USPSA, etc.

Not exactly true, Bordertown, home of the biggest and closest targets you will encounter will only have about 1/3 of their shooters shoot clean. No target too big to miss.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/8/2021 at 8:43 AM, Grass Range said:

Large, close targets are more fun? How about the further out the more of a challenge

Everyone challenges themselves in different ways. Some prefer small and far others close and fast. The single fastest filling match in SASS is a HUGE and CLOSE style and they are full within2-3 days of opening registration with a 300 shooter cap so there is something to be said about one versus the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can we make it to 3 ?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/7/2021 at 9:22 PM, Robyn Gold said:

Still new havent shot a full match. Have shot one stage and did it in 36 seconds even with fumbling on the shotgun reloads. 
Yes I shoot USPSA clean and 3 gun clean though I prefer not to run so much LOL

 

Didnt mean to open a can of worms. Just was wondering about the close targets and safety. 

Don’t worry about it. It was a legitimate question but it’s been beat to death before. BTW I think sometimes the rifle targets can be a little too close but it all depends on the club.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hardest I've ever been hit with splatter was a 45 slug coming back from a rifle target that was set at about 25 yards.  Hit me right in the temple and literally nearly knocked me out.

 

Target condition, position and stand make ALL the difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Can we make it to 3 ?

 

 

Yep, we might make it. FWIW this is a cut and paste from an earlier thread.

"Howdy Silver Rings, luckily our club has allowed us to have plenty of targets from the three major suppliers. The very best design is from Arntzen Targets. We have since bought, cut, drilled and wielded all our targets to this type of hanger. I can honestly say I cannot remember the last time we had any splatter from our targets. Arntzen has retired and now Made Targets carry all of his products, the best targets and stands IMHO. He still had some sheet steel and videos on his site. Good Luck:)

Target Stand - Folding Target Stands | Arntzen Targets (madetargets.com)

Arntzentargets.com 

Bottom line is our free hanging targets of this design have near bout made splatter a thing of the past. No rebar on any of our stands, and we set 'em about the way Possum likes 'em;) Good Luck:) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

And for what it's worth, I prefer pistol targets at 5-6 yds and rifle at 10-25 yds.

Ill shoot that match and not even whine...  Too much. :rolleyes:

 

But if I'm setting the steel;

Pistols will be 3-5 paces (16x16 or bigger)

Shotgun will be 7-8 paces 

Rifle will be 9-15 paces (16x16 or bigger)

Variance in rifle distance depends on if rifle targets are serving double duty as downrange movement pistol targets (then they have to be a little further away to give the chance to hustle for a few steps - tho I usually offer shooters the choice of how far they wish to move downrange {or not move at all} so the shooters can decide which best suits their game and skill set - either move or shoot their pistols at the further distance)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Creeker, I'm not saying I don't like some bigger and closer targets mixed in.  And I admit, our targets are mostly considerably bigger than 16x16, so that may skew my perception.  However, I think rifle targets at a lot of matches have become kind of a joke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 said:

Not exactly true, Bordertown, home of the biggest and closest targets you will encounter will only have about 1/3 of their shooters shoot clean. No target too big to miss.

But is that because of the target size, or because it is a State Championship match?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Big Iron Patnode SASS 60632 said:

Everyone challenges themselves in different ways. Some prefer small and far others close and fast. The single fastest filling match in SASS is a HUGE and CLOSE style and they are full within2-3 days of opening registration with a 300 shooter cap so there is something to be said about one versus the other.

Is that because of target size, or because it is a State Championship match?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cutter's Raiders had reasonable sized targets at reasonable distances.   3 or 4 misses a match was normal for me and my heavy recoil 45s.  My first State match was Kentucky, shot the match with only one miss (last stage last shot).  My next State match, again only one miss.  Why?

 

High school I played Ping Pong.  I preferred playing against those that were better than I.  By doing so my Ping Pong skills increased. 

 

Too many matches have turned into money making venues (IMHO).  Making targets HUGE and moving them within spitting distances (again IMHO) to make the customers feel like they have accomplished something is actually doing a disservice to them.   Their chances on improving their skills are diminished.  

 

And that's all I'm going to say about that. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.