Tennessee williams Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 So, think of your favorite T.O. and tell me what makes them your favorite. On the flip side, if you'd like to share, what makes you cringe when your not so favorite T.O. calls for the next shooter with nobody in front of you at the loading table? A favorite for me would be someone who can help out if I get lost, loudly call out the time and have a bit of fun after I finish the stage. Cringeworthy for me would be a TO that does not call out the time.
Tyrel Cody Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Don't remember having a TO I didn't like. I do appreciate the TO's that indicate when the shotgun targets are down. I prefer Imis over all others if it's raining.
Dream Chaser, SASS #79316 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Like one who lets me know immediately if I jacked out a round or missed a shotgun target. Do not like one who says standbye and immediately buzzes or who speaks softly to scorekeeper when giving time.
Tennessee williams Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: Don't remember having a TO I didn't like. I do appreciate the TO's that indicate when the shotgun targets are down. I prefer Imis over all others if it's raining. Definitely Imis if its raining! I hope I didn't come off bad on the cringe wording. It's just I really really don't like it when the TO doesn't call out the time . I hate to wait til after the match to find out what my time was or have to bother the scorekeeper. I do appreciate all who are willing to take the timer for a bit.
Tyrel Cody Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: Definitely Imis if its raining! I hope I didn't come off bad on the cringe wording. It's just I really really don't like it when the TO doesn't call out the time . I hate to wait til after the match to find out what my time was or have to bother the scorekeeper. I do appreciate all who are willing to take the timer for a bit. Nothing wrong with asking the TO before you head to the unloading table.
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I like any T.O. that saves me from a P! And vice-versa, though still my fault, some T.O.'s (not many) just follow around with timer not really paying attention.
Tennessee williams Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: Nothing wrong with asking the TO before you head to the unloading table. Agreed but shouldn't have to. One reason the TO should call out the time is in the event the timer gets bumped or picks up another round from a different location.
Doc Shapiro Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I like a TO that is quiet, out of the way, and not visible after the beep. I really like a distinct pause between "standby" and "beep". After the beep, let me own the stage, don't be in my peripheral vision, and don't say anything unless there's a real safety issue. I will own my P's just fine.
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Show me the timer reading instead of telling me. Show the timer reading to the scorekeeper instead of telling them, and verify that the scorekeeper recorded it correctly. Watch the loading table and call me as soon as the brass picker exits the stage, instead of socializing with spotters and scorekeeper. Stick the timer in my ear so I can hear the beep, but don’t slap my shoulder. It’s distracting and I will ask for a restart.
Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 When just starting out in SASS I had the privilege of a posse with Lead Dispenser and Swifty Swede. I learned a lot, and Swifty is the standard by which I measure other TO's.
Tennessee williams Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 37 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said: Show me the timer reading instead of telling me. Do you like for the time to be called out as well, or would rather it not be? Asking because I always call it out and also hold it in front of the scorekeeper while it is being recorded. Don't want them to hear something I didn't call out.
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: Do you like for the time to be called out as well, or would rather it not be? Asking because I always call it out and also hold it in front of the scorekeeper while it is being recorded. Don't want them to hear something I didn't call out. It doesn’t bother me to have it called out but usually the TO does it facing away from me while walking towards the scorekeeper and with earplugs in I cannot understand him. He should be right behind me when I fire that last shot and it doesn’t take much effort to show me the timer when I turn around to leave the stage.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I prefer Timer Operators who follow the procedures as taught in the RO2 (Range Officer Training Course): Quote Once the shooter is finished the course of fire, the TO shall call out the raw time in loud, clear voice to the shooter, and then instruct them (if they are not doing so already) to holster all revolvers, retrieve all long guns, and move to the unloading area with the muzzles in a safe direction. With the shooter moving to the unloading table, the raw time is then communicated to the score keeper and the spotters polled for misses, procedural input and safety input. These penalties may then be communicated to the score keeper and the shooter without delay. RO2 p.8 A T/O who obviously counts misses and doesn't check the count of ALL THREE spotters is a major irritation.
Griff Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Conversely, as a TO, if you have a preference on how you wish to be notified of the beep, or anything else in the course of the stage... let me know up front! I ain't the fastest on callin' out shotgun targets down or up (prefer not to call when down, as I find that distracting myownself...), as I'm watchin' the gun and your handling of same.
Flatbush Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Like Doc Shapiro, I generally like the TO to be quiet and out of the way, but.....I've found it helpful when the TO lets me know I've jacked out a round, or lets me know shotgun KD's are down when I'm shooting black powder.
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I "think" I'm a fairly decent TO. My personal list goes as follows: ENSURE the stage is ready prior to calling up the next shooter (I hate being called up and then stopped because the stage is not ready; brass picked, targets reset, spotters present, etc.). "Brass is picked, targets reset, spotters are ready - next shooter" Get OUT of the shooters way so they may stage or prepare without me hovering. "The stage is yours; stage your guns" VISUALLY check the shooter is safely prepared for the stage - eyes, ears, boot laces. IF there are any known issues with the shooter (hard of hearing, etc), verify their desired start method before (use other ear, tap the shoulder, etc.) before the stage. IF there are any known issues with the stage (SG targets are bouncing back up/ BP smoke making it difficult to verify SG targets down, etc.), verify the shooters desire for me/ spotters to call out down or still up or to simply shut up (and honor that). LISTEN to the shooters request (if any) for desired reminders during the stage ("Remind me take the SHOTGUN after the rifle"). ALLOW the shooter to tell you when they are ready - do not rush them or question them. They will say the start line or shooter ready when THEY are ready. Be in position for when they are ready. At the conclusion of their shooter ready notification - state CLEARLY, "Standby". Pause 1 beat, then BEEP. Your job is to provide a fair and CONSISTENT start - not "surprise" the shooter. VERIFY the timer is running and registers shots - it is unimportant to pickup every shot, BUT you must be alert to ensure it picks up the LAST shot. BE AWARE of the stage flow and where the shooter is/ may be going and where you will need to be to "safely assist" all the while staying out of their physical way AND out of their vision. Consider doorways, bottlenecks and width of boardwalks. FOCUS on the shooter and what "could" go wrong; so you are mentally prepared to say any needed instructions (whether that is "Hull", "Stop", "Squib", "Hammer", "Move", give a target order or simply, "One more"). MAINTAIN your focus ON the shooter until the last shot is fired. SHOW the timer to the shooter so they may see their time before leaving the stage. LOOK at ALL three spotters and determine the CORRECT count before calling out miss penalties (it is not the scorekeepers job to fix your errors - be accurate). AS you move toward the scorekeeper; CALL out the time and misses (and bonuses, procedurals, etc.) as follows: In time format. Nineteen forty six. Spotters say CLEAN. And then AGAIN in numerical format. ONE NINE point FOUR SIX And CLEAN. SHOW the scorekeeper the timer and (in this example) a clenched fist to visually reinforce the clean call. REQUEST the scorekeeper to call the score back to you. ENSURE the stage is ready prior to calling up the next shooter.
Waimea Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I like a TO that will try to save me from myself. Procedures, no shotgun shells, etc. I try to do the same. Call out the time, make sure the shooter gets to the UL table. Let the spotters do there job. And let them know you are not counting misses. The little delay between Standby and Beep is SO important.
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 I agree with DOC..... give me the 'beep' and become invisible on the stage unless there is a safety issue. When it comes to the SG KD's, I shoot smokeless and I really don't need anyone yelling at me when I fail to drop the KD. Matter of fact, some folks are a little to quick to yell 'UP' on a slow falling KD. I don't recall ever getting a bad TO. Matter of fact, around here there seems to be some GREAT TO's. You know they are good because when you go to big matches at other venues, some of the locals are ask to be Posse Marshal's and help with TO functions. ..........Widder
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Along with what others have said, as a TO. I try to watch the last round eject from the rifle and verify the shotgun is empty when discarded. I also try to watch the last shot recorded on the timer and then cover the pickup. I really don’t like a TO that wants to stand between me and the direction I’m heading to start the timer. I also don’t like a TO to crowd me when I’m shooting, many times I take guns to the next position and I have run over a few TO’s. I think most TO’s honestly try to do a good job but we can all get lost on a stage, even the TO. If you are going to run the timer try to do it like you want the TO to do for you and it will usually work out. Randy
Mister Badly Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Oak Ridge has great TOs. I've never had one yell DOWN on knockdowns which is good for me as I'm already a bit wired up and can see them pretty well. If I start to table the shotgun with one still standing just say one's still up. I've had a few brain cramps and have received good assistance.
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 12 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said: Nothing wrong with asking the TO before you head to the unloading table. I do this but like Tennessee said, you shouldn't have to. Randy
wyliefoxEsquire Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 Creeker's flow is good. I would include to check that the spotters are paying attention. If there is possible movement with long gun that the spotters will be back ( some shooters begin a step or two back so it is important to make sure the spotters are also back). It is sad that some TO's stand back, hold the timer low and watch the targets. Then after the last shot the quickly turn around to announce the time, ignoring the shooter completely.
Johnny Reno Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, wyliefoxEsquire said: Creeker's flow is good. I would include to check that the spotters are paying attention. If there is possible movement with long gun that the spotters will be back ( some shooters begin a step or two back so it is important to make sure the spotters are also back). It is sad that some TO's stand back, hold the timer low and watch the targets. Then after the last shot the quickly turn around to announce the time, ignoring the shooter completely. I've always enjoyed shooting with Wylie because he does focus on safety and the shooter all while making sure the shooter gets as much or as little input as he/she wants or needs.
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 Move the Timer back a step ,,, there IS NO NEED to crowd me 30 - 60 grains per shot of 3F will make plenty of Boom ... Also as I often shoot Long barreled guns give me room to move around Props.... But I do like the TO to call Down on shotgun targets .... If he Can see them .... Jabez Cowboy
Tequila Shooter Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 Having just recently completed ROII I haven’t run the timer yet but hope to soon. Most times with the SG I’m moving on to the next target so with BP smoke I can’t see if the KD is down or up so hearing the TO yell out helps me. If there is a choice of direction I tell the TO which way I’m going so they know. Maybe odd but I always check to make sure the TO is ready before saying my line, I do this in case the TO notices something wrong. Good or bad you learn from everyone either what to do or not do. I hope when I start running the timer I can do it as well as the other good TO’s out there.
Hendo Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 Heck, I'm still working on being a good spotter. I've found all my TO's to be kind or at least tolerant of an old guy in a new environment like me.
Stump Water Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 On 10/31/2020 at 9:07 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said: I agree with DOC..... give me the 'beep' and become invisible on the stage unless there is a safety issue. When it comes to the SG KD's, I shoot smokeless and I really don't need anyone yelling at me when I fail to drop the KD. Matter of fact, some folks are a little to quick to yell 'UP' on a slow falling KD. Agree and agree. I remember the first time I had SG targets "called" for me. Was a two-day match somewhere and half the posse was "together" and from some other part of the country. First stage, first shooter, first SG shot and that half the posse, as loud as they could possibly yell... "DOWN!!!!" I actually stopped shooting and turned to the TO... WTH!? Don't do that. Ever. Not even if I'm shooting BP.
Chert Rock Chuck Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 I think that calling a knock down “up” or “down” is annoying and unnecessary, especially when all the spotters and most of the spectating posse members are doing it in chorus. We have some GREAT T. O. in these parts, but that is something that seems to be getting more common lately. It’s as if everyone is waiting for a missed shotgun round to be fired so they can be the first to sing out. IF a shooter were to stop engaging the knock downs or transition to another gun, it would seem more appropriate, but not before a spent round can even be discarded. You asked, that’s my rant. Lol Chert Rock
Stump Water Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 About 12 years ago I was asked to write up some TO tips. These are those. You MUST know the stage. Spotters: - Make sure you have three. - Poll all of them after the shooter is done. Learn to anticipate trouble spots in the stage. Such as: - Dump targets. Especially important to count shots. - When the second scenario on a berm reverses the target sequence that was in the first scenario. - Shoot pistol from one position, move, then shoot other pistol… particularly windows. - Sweep left, then right, double-tapping the end. - When a typical sweep is reversed (i.e., progressive) - When returning guns to a place different from where they were retrieved (i.e.: get pistols from prop & return to holster; shooting long gun and “taking it with you”) Once you’ve identified a trouble spot, know what you’re going to say to the shooter when he gets in trouble there… so you can do something besides stand there with you mouth hanging open making squeaking noises. Know where the shooter is in the target sequence. This helps you direct the shooter to the proper target in the event of a gun malfunction mid-sequence. - If the sequence is specific, know what target the shooter is supposed to hit next. - If the sequence is not specific (i.e., 5-on-3), know what targets the shooter has hit. Watch the ’97 port for hull that doesn’t eject. Watch the SxS chamber for the hull that doesn’t slide out. Watch the long gun down. Watch the pistol in. If the shooter needs to be stopped (for a squib or to “open the lever”, for example) you need to be close enough to do that, but not so close you interfere. The shooter doesn’t need to feel you breathing. When a stage requires movement, and the shooter begins to move, don’t be there. Again, know the stage. The clock: - Direct the pickup toward the shooter. - Hold it over & behind the shooter’s head/shoulder not under the arm or at waist level. - Glance at it during the course of fire to make sure it’s working. - Don’t hold it so close to the shooter as to interfere or have it in his peripheral vision. - Move it in to make sure you get the last shot and look at it for the last shot. - “Imprint” the final time as you cover the pickup. At the end of the scenario, once you’ve “imprinted & covered up”, turn your attention back to the shooter to make sure he gets safely off of the stage. Poll the spotters. Then go to the scorekeeper and announce the shooters time and penalties while showing the scorekeeper the clock.
Noz Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 When I shot black powder the TOs call of down was imperative as the remaining targets would be obscured. Lots of times I shot at where the should have been.
Barry Sloe Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 I like a TO that is quiet unless I need a nudge. I dislike a TO that will not ever give that nudge. BS
Go West Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 The shooter should tell the TO to give him/her help or not. In the absence of their preferences, I will call out One More, Up, Middle Target, Hull and the like just to assist them along. I like to show the time and call it out for the shooter, then get it to the score keeper.
Yusta B. Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Had a TO back in Colorado about a thousand years ago that I would rate as EXCELLENT. He always asked if you were ready, he checked your SG belt as you staged your guns, he always said "say the line or indicate when ready", he very discretely pointed a finger at the ground each time you fired a shot always knowing the shot count, he always seemed to know where you were in the sequence if you became lost, he "looked" each pistol into your holster, held the timer close but out of your peripheral vision, made sure the timer registered the last shot, covered the timer after the last shot, showed you the timer after last shot and about 10 more things that ensured a smooth supportive stage. I'll be darned if I can remember his name but will never forget his concern for the shooter.
Tequila Shooter Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 Ok, I haven’t been the TO yet, but everything I’m reading makes it appear that everyone likes/dislikes different things. Coaching, no coaching, SG targets up or say nothing, etc. I guess my question is how is the TO supposed to know what a shooter expects?
Yusta B. Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 30 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said: Ok, I haven’t been the TO yet, but everything I’m reading makes it appear that everyone likes/dislikes different things. Coaching, no coaching, SG targets up or say nothing, etc. I guess my question is how is the TO supposed to know what a shooter expects? I think it's up to the shooter to tell the TO what he does or doesn't prefer during the stage. The TO's mantra is to assist the shooter as well as he can.
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