Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Mountain Man Champ

Disagreement???

Recommended Posts

What is the usual protocol when a shooter argues with the spotters about the call they just made on him/her??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Benefit of doubt should always go to the shooter. Only when you know its a miss, is it a miss. If a spotter utters the word "think", then it's a hit.  Hopefully, there isn't arguing going on...its just a game after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is none.  I tell spotters to tell me what they saw.  If they say, it was a miss, it was a miss.   Shooters should address any questions to the TO.  Sometimes, the shooters says I had an edge hit and says where it was.  If I see the nick, I'll get the spotters together and show them.  Whatever the majority says, goes.  If the shooter harasses the spotters, it's a Match Disqualification.   

  • Like 14
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) you don't argue,  you discuss. 

2) ask the TO "what did I miss?"  He should pose that question to the spotters.  They should all have the same answer. 

3) move issues to the side, don't lock up the firing line. 

 

BS

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

1) you don't argue,  you discuss. 

2) ask the TO "what did I miss?"  He should pose that question to the spotters.  They should all have the same answer. 

3) move issues to the side, don't lock up the firing line. 

 

BS

That's a BIG No-No!!

 

Spotters are NOT required to remember the shot(s) / target(s) missed. If one sez so-n-so target and the others say something else, both of them could be right and the shooter should be happy that they didn't get more misses.

 

Shooter should NEVER argue...keep it up and you'll get a MDQ. Shooter may ask the TO if they would ask the spotters to discuss...and then stay out of it. Poll the spotters after their discussion (which usually centers around a spotter seeing or not seeing an edger.

 

But PLEASE DO NOT THINK or DEMAND that all spotters agree on what they saw!!!!

 

Phantom

  • Like 17
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

*

Quote

5. It has been suggested by some on the SASS Wire that a shooter should not be allowed to question misses because it intimidates spotters? The discussion progressed about how a shooter can intimidate spotters depending on how they behave or ask the question. It does happen.

The ROC stated that if ANY behavior from ANY shooter becomes abusive or belligerent, that shooter should be ejected from the match.

However, it should be handled with care initially, as some shooters who are basically well mannered and good people can get caught up in the moment and simply react out of frustration. In this case the shooter should be given a warning off the line, which will likely end the problem. If it happens again then they should be removed from the match. On the other side of this issue, it is perfectly acceptable for a shooter to ask, politely, out of genuine interest “which one did I miss?” The ROC agreed to review & possibly give a clarification on the application of a progressive penalty of SDQ/MDQ for that situation.

EoT TG Meeting 2019

 

Quote

- Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct. 

...

- Interpersonal conflicts.

SHB p.24 - (MDQ Penalties)

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add comment
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have very few questioned calls at our local matches.  Usually they are resolved without any argument.  

 

I recall one incident when Sawmill Mary had a miss called and she insisted she hit it on the edge. She happened to be the first shooter on freshly painted targets.  The TO examined the target and found in edge hit. 

 

I'm not fast and have witnesses that will testify to that. As deliberate as I shoot, I miss a few.  I generally know as soon as I pull the trigger if it's a hit or a miss.  Shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter,  I get a few misses called that I was sure I hit.  But then again, I've missed and not been called. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

But PLEASE DO NOT THINK or DEMAND that all spotters agree on what they saw!!!!

 

Phantom

I didn't say anything of the kind.  The TO is the chief range officer.   If you have something to discuss,  he is the one to go thru.  And the spotters should be able to say, at the very least, that it was a rifle or pistol target that was missed.

 

For me, if I'm called a miss I ask one of the spotters as I walk off.  No argument,  just my knowledge. 

 

BS

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I’ve heard of one very accomplished shooter who will ask what he missed. If spotters cannot agree then he claims should be clean. Often especially with the faster shooters, it’s hard to say which target. When they unload a rifle in <3 seconds it can be hard to say exactly which shot you saw dig into the berm!
 

For me, I pretty much need 2 indicators that it’s a miss. Dirt splash on berm, no target wiggle, no clang. any one of those qualifies as a hit. 
 

If I really have to ask myself “was that a miss” then BOD to shooter. I have to be 100% sure. If I call a miss, and another spotter points out an edger, I’ll change my call. I can be convinced to change a call from miss to hit, but I NEVER change from hit to miss. 
 

as a TO, I ask spotters what they saw. I ask them to not look at other spotters calls. Just call what you saw. That’s why we have 3. 

 

I also think if you totaled up incorrect calls, in the end shooter comes out ahead. Of course, if the miss call was made at a bad time, say a state match, it can cost you a buckle!

 

Counters need to really try to pay attention and do their very best. Not only for the shooter on the line, but out of fairness to the rest of the shooters at the match. 

Edited by Hoss
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

I didn't say anything of the kind.  The TO is the chief range officer.   If you have something to discuss,  he is the one to go thru.  And the spotters should be able to say, at the very least, that it was a rifle or pistol target that was missed.

 

For me, if I'm called a miss I ask one of the spotters as I walk off.  No argument,  just my knowledge. 

 

BS

 

 

Oh really?

 

So what if the shooter had both a rifle and a pistol miss?? One spotter didn't see the rifle miss and the other didn't see the pistol miss... Your answer...??

 

So your belief that all the spotters should have the same answer on what was missed is 100% wrong.

 

Phantom

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spotter's are all a bunch of liars. Just like sheep.:D

  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh really?

 

So what if the shooter had both a rifle and a pistol miss?? One spotter didn't see the rifle miss and the other didn't see the pistol miss... Your answer...??

 

So your belief that all the spotters should have the same answer on what was missed is 100% wrong.

 

Phantom

You seem to be great on making things up as you go.  Maybe,  just maybe,  if your head wasn't so far up the dark side you'd be able to read and comprehend what was printed. 

 

Have a great day. 

 

BS

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

2) ask the TO "what did I miss?"  He should pose that question to the spotters.  They should all have the same answer. 

Above is your statement. You state "what did I miss". Not how many...therefore this means which target(s) were missed. 

 

You then state that they (the spotters), should all have the same answer.

 

So tell me exactly what I'm making up. Try to do it without the personal attacks...not "Cowboy" at all.

 

Looking forward to your response.

 

Phantom

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had all 3 spotters call me for 10 misses with the pistols... (.36 cal cap n ball on heavy targets).  I said, "...REALLY?"  TO said, "...I thought you were clean."  TO polled the spotters, all three said words to the effect we didn't hear any clangs nor saw any target movement.  Kinda knocked the dog poo outta an otherwise clean match.  Another time had 4 misses called outta 5 shot rifle string (Plainsman side match), on one target, freshly painted, one large lead smear.  I said, "WHAT?"   The TO asked, didn't you HEAR all five shots ring?"  Spotters all said, "but there's only ONE splatter mark."  TO then asked, "don't ya think he mighta hit the same spot?"   2 Spotters changed their call to "clean".  And folks wonder why I aim for the unmarked corners of targets! :D

 

But, be it a miss, P, MSV, SDQ or MDQ, you first ask the TO, then the Berm Marshal/Posse Leader, then the Match Director.  All without any rancor or belligerence.  Remember, it's a game and we're all volunteers, doin' the best we can.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Above is your statement. You state "what did I miss". Not how many...therefore this means which target(s) were missed. 

 

You then state that they (the spotters), should all have the same answer.

 

So tell me exactly what I'm making up. Try to do it without the personal attacks...not "Cowboy" at all.

 

Looking forward to your response.

 

Phantom

The spotters should be able to say rifle or pistol miss.  Even multiples of whichever.  Specific targets, no. 

The OP is trying to find out how to "discuss" misses.  The TO is the main man, but he needs input from the spotters to try to answer the shooters question.

 

You are right, I was way off base and I apologize to you.

 

Take care,

BS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a shooter, I have asked "what did I miss?" many times when I thought I shot the stage clean.  The responses are sometimes funny enough to cause consternation on the part of the TO, but the spotters have the last say on misses, as per the rules.  It's not confrontational or intimidating to ask what you missed, if it's done cordially.

 

As a TO, I have also asked "what did he/she miss?"  Many times I hear 20 shots but only 18 clangs, so when spotters say "clean" I call it clean & say "merry Christmas" to the shooter.  If 2 spotters call a miss but the 3rd says clean, then I ask for specifics but if they are sure about it, then that is the call that has to be made.   As a shooter, I have been on the receiving end of both over the years so it does balance out.

 

As a spotter, I can almost always say "3rd pistol" or "6th rifle" & usually high/low/left/right when asked "what did I miss?"  I think it's my duty to be observant enough to be able to say exactly what was missed.

 

Holler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't a person in this sport that at some time or another thought they shot a clean stage only to find out they were called for miss(es). Heck it happened to me just this past Sunday. Was called for two pistol misses on a stage where I would have swore was clean. Only two misses I had in the match. I'm not going to argue about that. I was busy shooting. They were busy looking. Move on....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue with spotters is the level of observation versus "hearing" the hits. That and at the end of the string you see spotters looking to see what the other spotters hold up for misses, and then they match it.

Shooting cap and ball, I know I hit the target, but the spotters didn't hear the clang so miss. And they don't get in a position where they can see past or around the smoke. You just have to smile and head to the unloading table.

 

Unless we re=paint the targets after every shooter this will never go away.

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes unfortunately we just have to live with what the spotters say. At a State match I had an edger and it went down as a miss. 1 spotter saw the edger which continued down range and knocked down a shot gun target. 3 folks in the Posse also saw the edger. The 2 spotters that called the miss based it on the fact that the SG target fell as well. So much for my "Clean shoot". I do have to admit however that it did kinda bum out my day! Still gotta work on that aspect.:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no obligation on the part of the spotters to identify which target or target type was missed.  If spotter one calls a rifle miss, spotter two calls a pistol miss, and spotter three calls clean, it's one miss. 

 

If the shooter is polite about it, and I'm the spotter or TO, then I'll do my best to answer their question.  If they're not, I ignore them and make what I believe is the correct call. I've never had to go beyond that.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Unless we re=paint the targets after every shooter this will never go away.

Our club paints between shooters

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a shooter I've asked for 2 reasons if I thought I was clean and if I had multiple misses with either pistol or rifle.  I've never been argumentative or complained about a call, as others have said we've all been on both sides of a good or bad call.  I have found that a lot of the spotters were helpful with multiple misses by telling me where the shots missed (high/low etc.)

As a spotter I always try to place myself so that I can see the targets.  I try not to just hear them, with shots being fired (fast shooters), hearing protection being worn, and soft/small bullets I just don't trust my hearing enough to comfortably make a call.  Also watching the targets is the only way to see if the targets are being hit in the correct order.  If a shooter asks me I give them my best answer, I won't tell them shot placement if I don't know for sure, and I won't argue with them if they think I'm wrong, I just chalk it up to a shooters frustration and move on.

 

TS 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shoot Cody Dixon which is with a rifle caliber rifle, at further targets. Had a match where last rifle target was a chicken, swinging in 2 chains. I shot it clean, a counter said 1 miss. I asked what did I miss, she said the chicken. I replied you mean the one still swinging from when I hit it with a 45-70? She looked and said “oh-clean”.   Not sure what she was thinking!   another time I had 1 counter say clean, another said 1 miss, 3rd said he wasn’t sure. TO said I don’t know what to call. I replied I do, it’s clean! 
 

 Nothing wrong with asking. But can’t be argumentative. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the rare instances where I miss, I will usually ask the spotters what I missed and which way.  That's to help me in the future.  I've done this just enough that the answers can tell me what happened pretty quick when it's one of my common mistakes.  Like aiming with the wrong eye or having the guns in the wrong holster.  I think there was 1 time when I had an edger and I mentioned it and the spotters told me that wasn't one of the misses they counted.  As a spotter I started trying to remember that for the shooter in case they asked and it made me a more observant spotter.  But even so, I can't always remember exactly which shot in the string was the miss. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2020 at 3:21 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's a BIG No-No!!

 

Spotters are NOT required to remember the shot(s) / target(s) missed. If one sez so-n-so target and the others say something else, both of them could be right and the shooter should be happy that they didn't get more misses.

 

Shooter should NEVER argue...keep it up and you'll get a MDQ. Shooter may ask the TO if they would ask the spotters to discuss...and then stay out of it. Poll the spotters after their discussion (which usually centers around a spotter seeing or not seeing an edger.

 

But PLEASE DO NOT THINK or DEMAND that all spotters agree on what they saw!!!!

 

Phantom

My feeling also. 

I'm starting to scare myself, I'm agreeing with Phantom all to frequently.

J.M.

Edited by Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L
  • Like 3
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Normally when I spot I get distracted by people talking, asking questions etc.  2 spotters might call 4 misses but I call what I saw which was no misses so the TO fires me.  So I go to picking up brass same thing happens.  TO hollers where is the brass picker.  I apologize and start picking but I never get fired from that job.  Life just isn't fair some times.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2020 at 6:39 PM, Warden Callaway said:

We have very few questioned calls at our local matches.  Usually they are resolved without any argument.  

 

I recall one incident when Sawmill Mary had a miss called and she insisted she hit it on the edge. She happened to be the first shooter on freshly painted targets.  The TO examined the target and found in edge hit. 

 

I'm not fast and have witnesses that will testify to that. As deliberate as I shoot, I miss a few.  I generally know as soon as I pull the trigger if it's a hit or a miss.  Shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter,  I get a few misses called that I was sure I hit.  But then again, I've missed and not been called. 

Pretty much how it runs at the local matches I attend. Generally everyone knows each other and we all shoot together often.

My story and yours are much the same, but for category we shoot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

    I was TO recently for a shooter. I had 2 spotters call one miss and one call clean. I happen to have seen an edger and asked the 2 spotters if it was the 2nd round from first pistol. They said yes. I told them I had seen an edger on that target for that round and pointed out the spot it hit and asked if they would consider it. One said "sorry I call a miss" and that was all. I really expected them to reconsider honestly. They chose not to and I tallied the miss.

 

On an unrelated note, how do yall go about changing spotters diplomatically? Or do you worry about diplomacy? I've had what I though was maybe a lax spotter here and there and just wondered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/22/2020 at 5:19 PM, Mountain Man Champ said:

What is the usual protocol when a shooter argues with the spotters about the call they just made on him/her??

 

The shooter is then invited to leave the match with an MDQ for belligerent conduct.

We don't argue with the spotters.  Period.

Just like arguing with an umpire over balls and strikes.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

The shooter is then invited to leave the match with an MDQ for belligerent conduct.

We don't argue with the spotters.  Period.

Just like arguing with an umpire over balls and strikes.

I like the part where they start kicking dirt on each other.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The shooter thinks he clean make him Clean put a note beside his name.   He needs a pink Cadillac

I seen great shoots wanted to know what gun and what target   

It in heat of Competition not wanting to loose or just their Nature  

Its just a game we like to play some play harder
 I just try to remember who they are don't count for them. Will not run the timer for them  I know it wrong to feel this way no head aches

Sorry just my view on this 

Edited by three by eight
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, three by eight said:

The shooter thinks he clean make him Clean put a note beside his name.   He needs a pink Cadillac

I seen great shoots wanted to know what gun and what target   

It in heat of Competition not wanting to loose or just their Nature  

Its just a game we like to play some play harder
 I just try to remember who they are don't count for them. Will not run the timer for them  I know it wrong to feel this but no head aches

Sorry just my view on this 

Too funny!

 

I've seen more of the "all I care about is shooting clean" folks argue and bitch about a miss than those evil "great shooters".

 

But never miss an opportunity to trash the good shooters;)

 

Phantom

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thrilled by being able to shoot, this El Rey is enjoying myself too much to quibble over a called miss. :D I recently had three misses because I lost concentration. Over the years, I have had erroneously called misses, often because the spotter in question was asleep. :P

 

My  shooting memories include exciting scenarii, friends,  weather, watching kid shooters mature, good food, and lots more. I have not yet dreamed of a miss!!!! :lol:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.