DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 In this morning's raid in Paris, police were reported to have fired 5,000 rounds, which resulted in the deaths of two terrorists (one of which blew herself up), and the arrests of eight others. Is it just me, or does 5,000 seem a wee bit excessive? For me, a standard combat load was 7, 30 round magazines, or 210 rounds. By my math, that is the equivalent of two squads burning through their entire combat load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Doc: Emotions running a bit high, ya think? LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I don't have a problem with it myself; assuming they have a lot more ammo in reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Doc: Emotions running a bit high, ya think? LL That was actually my initial thought, and still a good one. I don't have a problem with it myself; assuming they have a lot more ammo in reserve. Since I'm going to assume they didn't hit the two dead 5000 times, that leaves a whole lot of unaccounted rounds flying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 That was actually my initial thought, and still a good one. Since I'm going to assume they didn't hit the two dead 5000 times, that leaves a whole lot of unaccounted rounds flying around. Maybe. What we don't know is how many rounds it actually took to put the enemy down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Not at all excessive. Actually pretty good. I don't remember the site right now, but our military did a study on the number of rounds expended per casualty. The number was astounding. Good thing the French guys didn't have Artillery. In the heat of a fire fight, expending rounds is routine. When your adrenaline rush pegs your fun meter, it's actually hard to hit anything. Been there, Done that. Didn't get a T-Shirt. Just a bunch of shrapnel. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 In this morning's raid in Paris, police were reported to have fired 5,000 rounds, which resulted in the deaths of two terrorists (one of which blew herself up), and the arrests of eight others. Is it just me, or does 5,000 seem a wee bit excessive? For me, a standard combat load was 7, 30 round magazines, or 210 rounds. By my math, that is the equivalent of two squads burning through their entire combat load. In this morning's raid in Paris, police were reported to have fired 5,000 rounds, which resulted in the deaths of two terrorists (one of which blew herself up), and the arrests of eight others. Is it just me, or does 5,000 seem a wee bit excessive? For me, a standard combat load was 7, 30 round magazines, or 210 rounds. By my math, that is the equivalent of two squads burning through their entire combat load. Excessive? They went in very heavy, got their dog killed (friendly fire?), and decided they'd had enough. 10k rounds wouldn't have been excessive. The philosophy of "Kill'em all; let God sort'em out!" seems to have been at work today. Maybe the only reason they took any of them alive is to sweat Intel out of them (that's going to be ugly for those birds). As you may have heard (I heard this), the woman called to the police/security forces that she was surrendering, then she began shooting when she got close, then detonated a suicide vest/belt as she closed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Who reported this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Maybe. What we don't know is how many rounds it actually took to put the enemy down. Since we know only one was killed by police fire, one blew herself up, and eight were arrested, we have a total of ten. I have not heard if any of the arrested were wounded. Even if each of the arrestees was shot 100 times, the one who blew herself up an additional 100 times, and the dead guy 200 times, thats only 1,100 rounds accounted for. Not at all excessive. Actually pretty good. I don't remember the site right now, but our military did a study on the number of rounds expended per casualty. The number was astounding. Good thing the French guys didn't have Artillery. In the heat of a fire fight, expending rounds is routine. When your adrenaline rush pegs your fun meter, it's actually hard to hit anything. Been there, Done that. Didn't get a T-Shirt. Just a bunch of shrapnel. Coffinmaker I think that study includes the use of suppressive fire and the like in large scale combat situations. And yes, I know about pegging the adreno-meter. Amazing how you can do so much, remember some things as if etched in your brain in slow motion, yet not remember other things at all. Or at least me. Excessive? They went in very heavy, got their dog killed (friendly fire?), and decided they'd had enough. 10k rounds wouldn't have been excessive. The philosophy of "Kill'em all; let God sort'em out!" seems to have been at work today. Maybe the only reason they took any of them alive is to sweat Intel out of them (that's going to be ugly for those birds). As you may have heard (I heard this), the woman called to the police/security forces that she was surrendering, then she began shooting when she got close, then detonated a suicide vest/belt as she closed in. I had heard something to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Who reported this? A French prosecutor in Paris. http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/nov/18/paris-prosecutor-police-fired-5000-rounds-in-st-denis-operation-video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It was not a quick surgical strike. It was a messy firefight that lasted an extended time as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 There's going to be a lot of property claims filed due to all those stray rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 5000 rounds. Well, whatever it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 GAO: U.S. Has Fired 250,000 Rounds For Every Insurgent Killed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Several years ago, I read that during the Napoleonic Wars the casualty rate inflicted upon enemy troops by musketry was about 2 percent of shots fired. It also said that in Modern Warfare it takes the weight of a man in bullets to inflict one enemy casualty. (I can't verify the veracity of these statistics.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Don't believe any number that ends in a 0 or a 5. And three 0s, come on, get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bama Red Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 From our post-Ambush At Cavern Cove newsletter: "Over 32000 rounds went down range at Ambush and no one was injured." Although a lot of steel was certainly killed graveyard dead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 GAO: U.S. Has Fired 250,000 Rounds For Every Insurgent Killed I haven't found the actual GAO report yet, but I checked the link to the Belfast Telegraph, and other online sources, which seemed to parrot the same story. It appears number includes bullets used in training, which would seem to me to increase the number exponentially. "The Department of Defense's increased requirements for small- and medium-calibre ammunitions have largely been driven by increased weapons training requirements, dictated by the army's transformation to a more self-sustaining and lethal force - which was accelerated after the attacks of 11 September, 2001 - and by the deployment of forces to conduct recent US military actions in Afghanistan and Iraq," said the report by the General Accounting Office (GAO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I read awhile back that 25,000 rounds per kill was the average during Viet Nam. That figure depends on your source. 5,000 might seem like a lot, but compared to historical data it may not be out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Don't forget, the terrorists were not standing in the open, motionless, like a paper target on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Bird 61147 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 They shot 5,000 rounds because that's all they had. Who cares? Justice was served. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Don't forget, the terrorists were not standing in the open, motionless, like a paper target on the range. I agree. So suppressive fire? Otherwise, a lot of rounds blindly going down range in an urban center. If it was, as Bob indicated, a messy firefight, then it begins to make more sense. Particularly the suppressive fire part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It does not seem excessive at all. How many of us can blaze through 2 or 3 K rounds in a practise session. Take over 100 SWAT and police and military folks blazing away and the count seems low to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Seems like 5,000 rds is a lot of rounds down range for case in point. Unless they were shooting back, and I never heard if they were or not. Dog was killed by friendly fire. surprising non terrorist didn't get shot up with bullets going through walls and such. they could've made a public announcement in the street for all to evaculate and check whomever left building.....then bombed the building to get the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Rats seem to hide and infest in so many hidden places. Money well spent sez I. Wonder if any of those bullets had pig grease lube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 It was not a quick surgical strike. It was a messy firefight that lasted an extended time as I understand it. At 5K rounds, it should've lasted a couple of days. Or, maybe we now know why there was an ammo shortage a few months ago in US. If it took 5k rounds to put down 2 suspects; just think how much ammo they use up practicin'............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 In this morning's raid in Paris, police were reported to have fired 5,000 rounds, which resulted in the deaths of two terrorists (one of which blew herself up), and the arrests of eight others. Is it just me, or does 5,000 seem a wee bit excessive? For me, a standard combat load was 7, 30 round magazines, or 210 rounds. By my math, that is the equivalent of two squads burning through their entire combat load. If the roles would have been reversed......the bad guy would have done the same thing. Good on the French, I hope the only reason they fired 5K rounds is because they ran out of ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I don't remember the site right now, but our military did a study on the number of rounds expended per casualty. The Govt Accounting Office estimated that 230,000 rounds were shot to kill 1 Iraqi insurgent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I guess Angelina Jolie wasn't available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Horse Hair, SASS #77464 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I jes' hope it warn't .22 long rifle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 In this morning's raid in Paris, police were reported to have fired 5,000 rounds, which resulted in the deaths of two terrorists (one of which blew herself up), and the arrests of eight others. Is it just me, or does 5,000 seem a wee bit excessive? For me, a standard combat load was 7, 30 round magazines, or 210 rounds. By my math, that is the equivalent of two squads burning through their entire combat load. Sounds like Los Angeles to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugs Bonney SASS # 10171 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Let's remember we are talking about the French. At 2500 rounds per causality they will probably ger marksmanship badges and then be censured for using the Army's entire yearly allotment of ammunition. It's a joke guys, just a joke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sounds like Los Angeles to me.I was thinking A Saturday night Detroit or Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuteye John SASS#24774 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Sounds like Los Angeles to me. Or Chicago on a Friday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Based on Doc Ward's calculation of 1100 hits, I figure that mean 3900 misses. That's gonna be a lousy stage time! I woner if the Aces software will bind up on the entry. The shot count estimate for the gunfight that ended Bonnie and Clyde's 'career' is 130 rounds. Most of these were shot with lever action rifles and revolvers. Frank Hammer reported shot four times and hit both bandits in the head. The other shooters reported seeing him smoking a cigarette when the firing ceased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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