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Spotters, what do you need to see in order to call a miss.


Kirk James

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Championships can be won or loss by a miss. Some experienced shooters call a miss on lack of seeing or hearing a hit, Some others say they must see a miss before they will call it. There are some backgrounds such as grass or other materials which make it hard to see a miss Many individuals struggle at seeing hits. What's your call?.

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1) Replace the folks who cannot properly spot hits and misses and find them another job

 

2) You know what the old ditty says - Only if you KNOW it was a miss (you can see it, and also have clues like you don't hear it hit steel, and target does not move) is it a miss. All other conditions of "think it was a hit, think it was a miss, or know it was a hit" - those are ALL hits.

 

3)

Some experienced shooters call a miss on lack of seeing or hearing a hit

Them folks ain't as experienced or wise as they might act. They are almost certainly not seeing some of the edgers that occur on the sides opposite from where they are watching.

 

There are many shooters now who are fast enough to make it hard for at least half the posse to spot them accurately. Make sure you have a good team of spotters when they come to the line.

 

Good luck, GJ

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In order to call a miss, the spotter has to see the bullet impact something other than the target -- on a path that is straight from the direction the shooter was holding the gun when it went off.

 

Not seeing a hit is not the same thing as seeing a miss -- not logically, not practically, and certainly not in light of giving shooters the benefit of the doubt.

 

Bullets that impact somewhere other than the direction the shooter was aiming are often edge hits.

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Here is my question: does it matter what criteria each individual spotter uses?

 

Berms have grass and targets have dead zones. Spotters on the right of the shooter are not gona see every edger on the left of the target and spotters on the left of the shooter might not see every edger on the right side of the target.

 

A spotter might not KNOW if the bullet hit the stand or the target because they heard a 'ding' but didn't see where the bullet impacted.

 

WE all shoot our best and hope for the correct calls but it don't work as perfect as everyone would like. YES, sometimes a hit might be judged a miss and sometimes the miss might be judged a hit.

 

So does it really matter what criteria each individual spotter uses as long as we ask ALL our spotters to be attentive and do they best they can within the guidelines that SASS has supplied us..........If you KNOW and have no doubts of your call, then that IS the correct call to make. AND.....when you have doubts, then SASS has already determined what the correct call should be.

 

 

..........Widder

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In order to call a miss, the spotter has to see the bullet impact something other than the target -- on a path that is straight from the direction the shooter was holding the gun when it went off.

 

Not seeing a hit is not the same thing as seeing a miss -- not logically, not practically, and certainly not in light of giving shooters the benefit of the doubt.

 

Bullets that impact somewhere other than the direction the shooter was aiming are often edge hits.

 

Are you saying if you don't see the miss it is not a miss . On some ranges that would be an impossible task . If I misunderstood your post I apologize .

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No good, stinkin', lyin', cheatin', blind spotters! Anyway!!

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Great. We start off the new year hammering on spotters. Just what we need.

They are us. :-( :-/ |-)

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I have to have evidence that a miss occurred. Lack of a clang is not enough. For example, edge hits make very little sound. Sometimes a clang is a miss, like when wrong target is hit or stand is hit. Bays with sand, rocks and dirt behind targets and no vegetation behind targets is a spotters friend. Even dirt under targets helps.

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Pretty easy actually.......never call a miss unless you know it's a miss. If there is any doubt......it's a hit. I don't have a problem with it.

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Sometimes I'll hear the argument that the hit (not) was an edge hit and that what I saw was the richochet impacting the ground behind the target behind the target. So, benefit of doubt is one thing, but when you know you know. That's how I do it. I've taken some bad calls, but I will only rarely want to make an issue of it.

 

The one thing I don't care for is for some one spotter to spot the entire stage unless it's very obvious he's really paying attention.

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The thing I dislike the most is the spotter who counts only by looking for the fingers up on the other spotters' hands.

 

Good grief, GJ

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Some matches are lost brass matches because "It takes too long to pick it up."

 

Just wait until all this confusion and arguing about hits and misses causes a rule that targets to be painted between every shooter at state matches and above.

 

;^)

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Championships can be won or loss by a miss. Some experienced shooters call a miss on lack of seeing or hearing a hit, Some others say they must see a miss before they will call it. There are some backgrounds such as grass or other materials which make it hard to see a miss Many individuals struggle at seeing hits. What's your call?.

 

stirthepot.gif

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Counting misses by committee is one of my biggest pet peeves. I'm shooting a match tomorrow where this happens quite often. Two spotters aren't paying attention and watch the third spotter to see what he says and that's not right. If you're going to spot pay attention.

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When I spot-- If I'm not positive in my own mind of a miss, then it's a hit. I don't always agree with the other 2 spotters, but that's why we have 3. On occasion I've called a miss and the 2 others that were on the other side of the shooter pointed out the edge hit that I didn't see. Either way the shooter ---Had a "HIT" . Just do your best when you're spotting and all will be well. Remember we do this to have FUN. Get too serious and the fun will fade. IMHO

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The thing I dislike the most is the spotter who counts only by looking for the fingers up on the other spotters' hands.

 

Good grief, GJ

+1

I don't look at the other spotters until the TO has seen my count. I do point out edge hits I see if the total final count is higher than my own. At major shoots I try to find other posse duties if possible.

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Love how everyone is jumping on the OP...

 

The biggest issue in this game is quality spotting. Lazy spotters that want to sit on their butts and not be engaged in the shooter...folks that don't know what the actual miss count is so they look at other spotters...spotters that won't even consider that they are wrong even if another spotter points out an edge hit...

 

And my all time favorite: "I heard a Miss"

 

So like FJT told his posse a long time ago: If you know it's a hit, it's a hit...etc,etc.

 

I would just add: And spotters, git off yer rear and stay as close to the shooter as possible...and pay attention!!!!!!

 

Phantom

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+1

I don't look at the other spotters until the TO has seen my count. I do point out edge hits I see if the total final count is higher than my own. At major shoots I try to find other posse duties if possible.

Don't!!!!! We need good spotters like you!!!!!

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I'll speak for the Frontiersman BP shooters. Since we moved the pistol targets in I have experienced spotters who didn't hear the clang so it was a miss. The gun has two bangs the cap and then the charge, louder than smokeless. And using pure lead against a dead target and the smoke obscuring the target I get a miss called.

 

I can't go back and point to where I hit but sometimes I just know I didn't miss...What to do?

Ike

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I like to count. I always do my best to get a good position, and pay attention. I have gotten distracted, or lost concentration, and had no clue at the end of the string. When that happens I try to get relief. But, I do try to do my best, and I'm sure that other spotters do as well. Ill have to admit, when I'm not sure, I've sneaked a peek at other counters, But only to confirm in my own mind what I thought I saw. I'll only call a miss if I'm sure it was a miss. I have argued with other counters if I saw an edge hit that the other 2 did not see.

 

Counting and TOing is hard. I appeciate everybody who has ever counted for me, or especially held the timer.

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It's only a miss if I'm absolutely positive it's a miss. Anything else is a hit. I find the best spotters are those who are established shooters, been doing it awhile, and for the most part are "good shooters". Not necessarily "top" or "fast" shooters, just those who've been around and are experienced. On the other hand I've seen "friends" and family members of shooters who call hits even when others obviously see misses, and have the guts to argue their call. (Hate being on their posse). I've seen my share of "established" champion shooters cheat for their friends and it's ridiculous. (Happened last fall at the Wisconsin State Championship. Fortunately it was caught by some other honest shooters). I'm not saying you should "pick and choose" your posse as there are usually some honest people who are experiened on almost every posse I've ever been on. I have not done it yet but I've shot on posses where a shooter asks for some different spotters and it's rightfully been granted. Anyway, to me it's only a miss if I'm absolutely sure it's a miss. Benefit of doubt goes to the shooter.

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When I'm spotting.. I hold my countin' hand behind my back.. for my eyes only.. :)

I've sometimes pulled a finger back up if I have to rethink "Did he hit it" :mellow:

I've scolded other spotters for waiting to see what everyone else has.. :angry:

If I've called a miss and another spotter or RO says "He edged it right here" I give it to him.. :wacko:

When I see a BP shooter comin' up. I tell the other spotters "BP Shooter.. pay attention"

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' ya gotta take some pride in spottin' the correct way.. :)

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When I'm spotting.. I hold my countin' hand behind my back.. for my eyes only.. :)

I've sometimes pulled a finger back up if I have to rethink "Did he hit it" :mellow:

I've scolded other spotters for waiting to see what everyone else has.. :angry:

If I've called a miss and another spotter or RO says "He edged it right here" I give it to him.. :wacko:

When I see a BP shooter comin' up. I tell the other spotters "BP Shooter.. pay attention"

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' ya gotta take some pride in spottin' the correct way.. :)

+1

 

and also +1 on Ike's comments about C&B with 100% lead balls, particularly 36s, even with 22+gr of FFF. I've noticed the problem, and will use my harder balls at bigger matches in order to try to minimize it. Seems some spotters really rely on the "clang". NO clang does NOT mean a miss.

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Being a Black Powder and also a Cap 'n' Ball shooter, I also look for reaction from targets. I spotted for a Frontiersman shooter who used '36s with less than full chamber full loads a time or two. Some of his hits made no clang whatsoever, but the targets jerked whenever he hit them.

 

Love how everyone is jumping on the OP...

 

The biggest issue in this game is quality spotting. Lazy spotters that want to sit on their butts and not be engaged in the shooter...folks that don't know what the actual miss count is so they look at other spotters...spotters that won't even consider that they are wrong even if another spotter points out an edge hit...

 

And my all time favorite: "I heard a Miss"

 

So like FJT told his posse a long time ago: If you know it's a hit, it's a hit...etc,etc.

 

I would just add: And spotters, git off yer rear and stay as close to the shooter as possible...and pay attention!!!!!!

 

Phantom

 

As long as the spotters are separated and far enough out from behind the Black Powder shooter to not have their vision impaired by our smoke, I'm good with that.

 

I had misses called on me on the same stage three years in a row because two spotters were too lazy to follow me and the TO down range. The second year that it happened, the TO and the spotter who did follow us turned to the others and asked in unison, "What the hell did he miss?" Neither of the other spotters could even tell which target they said I missed, and when pressed, they each pointed out a different target.

 

Phantom's right! All of the above mentioned types should be given other posse chores.

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Great. We start off the new year hammering on spotters. Just what we need.

 

Iffn I am gonna have to get hammered after every match, not sure I'd want to spot.....the blinding headache that comes with the hang over from drinking that much just hurts more than I care for! :P

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