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Spotters, what do you need to see in order to call a miss.


Kirk James

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Iffn I am gonna have to get hammered after every match, not sure I'd want to spot.....the blinding headache that comes with the hang over from drinking that much just hurts more than I care for! :P

 

It should be pointed out that the offending spotter is seldom singled out or chastised. Like most of us agree, unless someone is intentionally miscounting, we almost always just shrug and go on.

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I try to position myself so I can see all of the targets and will move with the shooters as they change positions. Just about everywhere I've shot at has dirt for an impact area. IF I see dirt hit well behind the target and don't hear or see the bullet impact the target it's a miss. Granted there's been a few times it was an edge hit and when that was pointed out I agreed with the other spotters. If I'm not 100% positive it's a miss then like others have said...it's a hit. I'm getting to where I try to spot less and less as my hearing gets worse. I don't want to call a shooter with a miss just because I didn't hear it or see a bullet impact somewhere off of the target.

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I like to spot. I don't mind spotting for the fast folks, either. Truth be told, I really struggle spotting for the stragglers. You know, the ones that take 2 minutes to finish. I just find that my mind starts to wander.

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I don't mind spotting, if I'm not sure I'll call it a hit. That being said I've shot with pards who will have conversations with other people while they spot, people who NEVER see or call an edge hit and will NOT change their mind when another spotter sees one. I've talked to pards who very adamantly say once they make a call they will not change their mind. One of my biggest pet peeves is spotters who will spot for BP shooters and will stand on the downwind side of the shooter and then call misses when it is obvious they cannot see the targets. I've seen spotters who will stand with their head down and count the hits by listening. That works really well. Unless you have targets that are not all the same and don't sound the same. kR

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I was spotting once, and there was one "edge shot." The bullet just grazed the side of the target. There were 4 spotters. I was the only one who saw it. They all said 1 miss, I said clean.

 

Normally, you go with the "majority opinion" of the spotters, but while the stage was being reset, I walked out to the target, and showed the scorer and other spotters were the paint had been nicked. They all agreed it was a hit, and the stage was declared clean.

 

So in other words, the spotters should be honest. Benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter if you are not sure if it is a hit or miss. But in the event of a questionable hit, if you are a spotter and know it is a good one, don't be afraid to point out why you know.

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I was spotting once, and there was one "edge shot." The bullet just grazed the side of the target. There were 4 spotters. I was the only one who saw it. They all said 1 miss, I said clean.

 

Normally, you go with the "majority opinion" of the spotters, but while the stage was being reset, I walked out to the target, and showed the scorer and other spotters were the paint had been nicked. They all agreed it was a hit, and the stage was declared clean.

 

So in other words, the spotters should be honest. Benefit of the doubt should go to the shooter if you are not sure if it is a hit or miss. But in the event of a questionable hit, if you are a spotter and know it is a good one, don't be afraid to point out why you know.

Why would you have 4 spotters?

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... There are some backgrounds such as grass or other materials which make it hard to see a miss ...

 

 

I shoot in the southwest -- mostly dirt/sand -- and we can usually see dust or dirt kicked up by a miss. I would be interested in hearing how folks in other areas, that shoot over grass for example, spot misses. Seems like it would be darn tough to to see grass kicked up or see a miss in dark woodland, and, by default, you would have to watch for "hits". I have not shot back east or the south and it just seems like it would be difficult to see many misses in some situations.

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In order to call a miss, the spotter has to see the bullet impact something other than the target -- on a path that is straight from the direction the shooter was holding the gun when it went off.

 

Not seeing a hit is not the same thing as seeing a miss -- not logically, not practically, and certainly not in light of giving shooters the benefit of the doubt.

 

Bullets that impact somewhere other than the direction the shooter was aiming are often edge hits.

 

This answer sums it up pretty well. The only thing I would add is that edge hits are very difficult to determine if the spotter is not in the proper position. I try very hard to get a good spot from which to spot, but may times, the stage design prohibits al three spotters from doing the same. Sometimes you just have to do your job as best you can with what you have. At a recent annual, I saw a clear AD go between two targets impacting the berm. The other two spotters called it an edge hit.

 

Everyone just does the best they can and the TO sorts it out in accordance with the rules. Next shooter.

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If there is an accident in an intersection and there is a witness standing on each of the four corners, each will will have a different version of what happened when you take their testimony. SASS scoring is subjective. You win some, you lose some.

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Some matches are lost brass matches because "It takes too long to pick it up."

 

Just wait until all this confusion and arguing about hits and misses causes a rule that targets to be painted between every shooter at state matches and above.

 

;^)

W3G does this as SOP, and it's done PDQ-

OLG

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I think that a good TO is also important in this process. At the start of a match I like to remind the spotters about the "if you think" rules and to spot as if they were the shooter. Also as the TO I announce to the spotters the category the shooters is in. I think that if the spotters know it is a Black powder shooter or a gun fighter it helps to prepare them for the stage to be shot. Any of us who have been shooting for awhile have seen bad calls and most of us may have been the recipient of a questionable call but if I have felt that if I had good spotters who were doing their very best you suck it up and move on.

I do get perplexed as a shooter when I see one spotter look to another to make a call of hit or miss .Many years ago lost a match when a young inexperienced spotter who looked to his grandmother (also a spotter) to see what she called rather that admit he was not paying attention. One spotter stated he saw an edge hit but the grandmother did not see it so she rightfully called miss. Young guy looked at grandmother and even said she saw a miss so shooter had a miss. The grandfather was the TO and he called out a miss to the score keeper because two spotters called miss. Lost match by 2 seconds, oh well need to have good hits and life goes on. There is always another match.

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Being a good spotter is a hard job, just like being a good T.O. I've seen lots of bad calls, like others have said some just don't pay attention. Like the edge hits, when they see dirt fly they just think it's a miss? Anyone who has been in the game for anytime has proubly had a bad call on them.

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As a BP shooter, I can attest that we get some questionable calls. Closer targets and dead steel can make it difficult to hear a hit with the longer report from BP. Dirt splashing in front of a target is often called evidence of a "miss". Our clubs remind shooters at every match about the rule: "if you think its a hit ... "

 

Make your case if you see an edge hit, but some spotters won't be swayed. As a TO, I poll the spotters and go with the majority, even if I agree with the lone spotter who saw the edge hit.

 

Win some, lose some, but hope the spotters are paying attention, chastise them if they aren't.

 

CR

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No good, stinkin', lyin', cheatin', blind spotters! Anyway!!

HEY! :P

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Love how everyone is jumping on the OP...

 

The biggest issue in this game is quality spotting. Lazy spotters that want to sit on their butts and not be engaged in the shooter...folks that don't know what the actual miss count is so they look at other spotters...spotters that won't even consider that they are wrong even if another spotter points out an edge hit...

 

And my all time favorite: "I heard a Miss"

 

So like FJT told his posse a long time ago: If you know it's a hit, it's a hit...etc,etc.

 

I would just add: And spotters, git off yer rear and stay as close to the shooter as possible...and pay attention!!!!!!

 

Phantom

+1

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+2. As an FYI the OP is the father of SASS Kicker and Cody James. All three of them are world class competitors and a mis-call really can cost them a championship.

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Thank you Larsen for your kind words. I brought up this topic over recent conversations with several experienced shooters. While some shooters determine a miss by looking for the miss, others look at the target and call a hit if they see or hear a hit, if neither occur they call a miss. My family rarely shoots in conditions other than dirt and gravel where misses are easy to see. We have not experienced many grassy backgrounds that make misses harder to spot. I know I have made my share of mistakes in spotting but I hope that myself and others will learn something that can make spotting more consistent while airing on the shooters side.

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+2. As an FYI the OP is the father of SASS Kicker and Cody James. All three of them are world class competitors and a mis-call really can cost them a championship.

I get it. I think everybody probably does. There are bad spotters, always have been, always will be. Mistakes will be made that will change outcomes, until we go with professional spotters and instant replay (yeah, those guys make mistakes, too). Other than that, there are shooting games where scoring is based on holes punched in paper. That pretty much eliminates subjectivity.

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Spotting is a PRACTICED art form that many people never quite achieve any level of proficiency.

Add to that the trend in giving shooters options on the order of targets engaged......

Add to that the speed at which some shooters can real off ten shots......

Add to that the addition of having props in the way, limiting the spotters view of the targets.....

 

It is no wonder that many misses are called that shouldn't.

#1 rule - If you are not 100% sure it was a miss then you MUST call the shot a HIT. (Hint - Bullets travel is straight line. Just because dust/dirt kicks up somewhere doesn't mean it was a miss)

 

It is not unusual for a match to be decided by 5 seconds or less.

You as a spotter have the most to say (with the exception of the shooter) as to whether a shooter wins or looses the match. Spread out. Watch every target like a hawk. Watch the targets not the shooter. (Watching the shooter is the TOs job)

 

And please, above all, as a spotter, don't be looking at the other spotters to determine whether you call a miss or not. As soon as that last shot is fired, hold up your call for everyone to see. Remember that your call on misses cannot be overruled by anyone.

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Spotting is a PRACTICED art form that many people never quite achieve any level of proficiency.

Add to that the trend in giving shooters options on the order of targets engaged......

Add to that the speed at which some shooters can real off ten shots......

Add to that the addition of having props in the way, limiting the spotters view of the targets.....

 

It is no wonder that many misses are called that shouldn't.

#1 rule - If you are not 100% sure it was a miss then you MUST call the shot a HIT.

 

It is not unusual for a match to be decided by 1 second or less.

You as a spotter have the most to say (with the exception of the shooter) as to whether a shooter wins or looses the match. Spread out. Watch every target like a hawk. Watch the targets not the shooter. (Watching the shooter is the TOs job)

 

And please, above all, as a spotter, don't be looking at the other spotters to determine whether you call a miss or not. As soon as that last shot is fired, hold up your call for everyone to see. Remember that your call on misses cannot be overruled by anyone.

Why hold up your call for everyone to see???? That just give someone that's uncertain a better feeling about copying your count...

 

I hold up my count closely against my chest for the TO to see. That's MY call...don't need to try and influence others.

 

Or maybe I should just get some flags with numbers on them...hold them up high into the air...let the breeze oscillate the fabric...perhaps hear harps playing...

 

Phantom

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Why hold up your call for everyone to see???? That just give someone that's uncertain a better feeling about copying your count...

 

I hold up my count closely against my chest for the TO to see. That's MY call...don't need to try and influence others.

 

Or maybe I should just get some flags with numbers on them...hold them up high into the air...let the breeze oscillate the fabric...perhaps hear harps playing...

 

Phantom

:lol::lol::lol:

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The American spotter: No misses. :-)

The UK spotted: No misses. :-)

The East German spotter: 2 misses, 1 P. :-(

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Watching a 2D video is not a real good judge, bur from what I saw - one miss hi on the right target. 3rd shot on left target looked/sounded like edger.

 

One miss.

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Watching a 2D video is not a real good judge, bur from what I saw - one miss hi on the right target. 3rd shot on left target looked/sounded like edger.

 

One miss.

 

Spotter 1 - farthest to the right of the shooter - 1 miss

Spotter 2 - between spotter 1 and the shooter looking through the prop window - 2 misses

Spotter 3 - more or less behind shooter - 'only one that I was sure of'

 

TO - Well it's one miss then

 

Overheard - I saw dirt fly on that left target.

 

My point is this, dirt flying don't matter if the target rings or moves. I am thankful for good spotters who catch edge hits more often than they don't.

 

I have no depth perception in the traditional sense, my eyes don't work together, it's one eye or the other. So everything is 2 D other than what my brain calculates for depth based on sizes, shapes, shadows, etc. That is one reason I don't consider myself a good spotter, but I will only call what I am sure of.

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2 misses - right target - 1st pistol, 4th shot - 2nd pistol, 1st shot.

 

Edit: Grizz caught me on this one - no miss on second pistol.

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Hello Grizz-One miss on 1st pistol 4th shot, high at 11:00. When I listen to the hit on the 5th shot and compare to the 1st shot of the 2nd pistol they sound the same and no evidence of a miss. The 1st and 2nd targets from left to right have a different sound than the 3rd target. I would have called one miss. How did I do? Great training for spotters. Shows you have to be paying close attention to the shooting.

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Post #9 says it all.

 

 

That is why we have three spotters. Majority rules and that doesn't mean a whole posse committee pow-wow vote.

 

Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield. Meaning, the shooter will get away with a favorable miss call about as often as a non favorable miss call.

 

It is just a game, right? No big prizes or anything.

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I was spotting a stage where a local veteran shooter absolutely positively had a miss. I saw it and one other spotter saw it. Interestingly both of us that called the miss were relatively new shooters. The shooter lobbied pretty hard that he didn't have a miss. The other spotter had been around a bit longer but even he admitted that he didn't see a hit. He also didn't see a miss so he correctly gave him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand both of us relatively new shooters were certain we saw a miss. After a debate it was scored as a miss. I'm not sure why there was a debate. Two saw a miss, one didn't. That's a miss. Guess who got a feather for a clean match? Sometime after the stage was over the score was changed by someone. I'm the new guy so I didn't make an issue about it but it sure tainted my opinion of how things are really done.

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On what basis would you call the first shot on the second pistol a miss?

Upon further viewing, you I agree with you (and others). First pistol miss only.

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I was spotting a stage where a local veteran shooter absolutely positively had a miss. I saw it and one other spotter saw it. Interestingly both of us that called the miss were relatively new shooters. The shooter lobbied pretty hard that he didn't have a miss. The other spotter had been around a bit longer but even he admitted that he didn't see a hit. He also didn't see a miss so he correctly gave him the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand both of us relatively new shooters were certain we saw a miss. After a debate it was scored as a miss. I'm not sure why there was a debate. Two saw a miss, one didn't. That's a miss. Guess who got a feather for a clean match? Sometime after the stage was over the score was changed by someone. I'm the new guy so I didn't make an issue about it but it sure tainted my opinion of how things are really done.

Yep,

 

It happens more time than you think.

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...

After a debate it was scored as a miss. I'm not sure why there was a debate. Two saw a miss, one didn't. That's a miss. Guess who got a feather for a clean match? Sometime after the stage was over the score was changed by someone. I'm the new guy so I didn't make an issue about it but it sure tainted my opinion of how things are really done.

 

 

Yep,

 

It happens more time than you think.

 

Why don't y'all post where you shoot so the rest of us can avoid those clubs where CHEATING is so prevalent?

 

<_<

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