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Category Elimination


John Barleycorn, SASS #76982

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You can eliminate all age/gender/costuming/caliber/shooting-style/power selection based categories in my opinion. Give everyone a participating gold, feel good metal award who attend. We have so many meaningless categories now...

 

But wait, people want to be good dealed and given awards/recognition for ????? That we should really give out more awards

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Well,

 

Lots of thoughts on the category selections, but it has all been said before. Professor's matrix is worth some thought, but is unlikely to find support. It's is amazing to look at shooters inventing categories at monthly shoots.

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PS dont cha know you can't win shooting full house loads. Light loads win the day this is a speed contest, it matters not how hard you hit the steel.

 

SASS matches are shooting competitions based on how fast and accurately we can shoot a sequence of targets, not what kind of outfit we wear while doing it.

Howdy

 

Speak for yourself. There are some of us who march to a different drummer. I only shoot full house loads of Black Powder in 45 Colt, 44-40, and 44 Russian in CAS. Sometimes with recent made guns, sometimes with antiques. I don't give a hoot where I come in in the standings. For me, CAS is about dressing up like a cowboy and firing heavy, Black Powder loads. I don't shoot Classic, I always shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist. But part of the reason Classic exists, as has been stated before, is to limit it to large bores, 40 caliber or over. Not everybody wants to shoot 38s.

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Just like entitlements from the guvment, you can't "TAKE AWAY" any categories. If anything just let 'em fade away on they're own. I wish spring would come so we could concentrate on shooting!!!! :wacko: Rye

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I do not understand the notion being put forward by some that if a category is done away with we will not be able to play in our own way any longer Am I wrong in remembering that, in the past, I could have shot in every available male category SASS offered while shooting 40 caliber or larger? Is there something within the rules that I missed, will I be asked to leave if I sign up for any category while wearing spangles and embroidery or chaps and spurs? Sure costuming is a part of our game, as a fact there are many who bemoan the fact that we require a minimum dress code while promoting the idea that shooters should strive to go beyond that minimum! As fact, who has ever seen a shooter turned away from shooting in any category before there were categories based on age? Categories should be about what and how we are shooting, not about what we are wearing or when we had our last birthday party. After the shooting is over you can go to a local restaurant and celebrate the senior shooters while the locals get a laugh at the old men in their fancy movie cowboy costumes.

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As SASS continues to gray and contract the more Professor Bullspit's matrix appears to be the most well thought out solution. There is heavy burden placed on Match Directors to draw in and please the majority of participants, and keep them coming back year after year.

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I shoot Senior Duelist(double) with 200gr 45Colt loads. I dress the part and enjoy it. I follow the top shooters with great interest, but know that I will never be one of them through choice as well as natural ability.

 

I am, however, a very competitive person and pay close attention to how I finish within my class, and relative to those with whom I normally compete fairly closely, especially those just ahead of me. The category system gives me the capability to track my performance in that view.

 

All I am saying is that there is more utility in the category system than determining how many awards have to be passed out after every match..

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Maybe add "space cowboy" class. Then all the tactical Tupper Ware crowd can use all those plastic pop guns..... :lol:

 

Just think of all the pretty laser lights dancing around on the steel! ;) And?

 

Please let the warm weather save us from ourselves!!!!!!

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OK, I'll stick my foot in my mouth here. It's the only thing I excel at that! At our local matches, although we sign up in categories, we don't give awards, (used to give a paper certificate, years ago, now we just wait for the results to get posted on the web-sites). We know who we're competing against... for me, it's not the top guys but the other fellas with the "smoke and boom" I try to stay within 20 seconds reach of the top guys... most-times not too successfully.

 

But then at the bigger multi-day shoots, I am competing against the other folks who decided to sign up in the same category as me. They are my competitors. They are the ones, whose times I compare mine to. They are the ones I try to beat, or get beaten by (mostly). Would I even bother if we were all lumped together and I was racing against the "Top 16" (or however many are good enough to make the shoot-offs)?? Nope. The category system is what has helped this "family entertainment" sport grow as it has.

 

I don't care how you spin it, a Senior shooter usually has a few physical hurdles earned along the way a 20-something shooter hasn't acquired yet. If a Senior wants to shoot with and against the younger guns, he certainly may, but once all Seniors are forced into direct competition with the younger shooters as part of an over-all category, you'll lose the bulk of them.

 

I shoot cap n' ball... it has it's own particular challenges and difficulties... Do I want to shoot directly against those who don't have to occasionally fight their errant percussion caps fouling their gun? Or, those that don't have their thumbs lock up with tendinitis because of heavy springs required to keep the hammers down on said cap?

 

If you don't believe there are physical differences between an Elder Statesman and someone just entering Senior Category, you're living in a dream world.

Age-based Categories acknowledge a reality, and allow those who choose to, shoot against those of similar physical realities. If you choose to shoot with the younger crowd, then you have the ability to do so. But, if arthritis has deformed your spine and knees like others of your age, you've earned the right to shoot within that age protected category.

 

Don't forget that SASS is also in the entertainment business. If this thing we have ceases to be fun, and just becomes a grind for the prize (such as it is) you'll lose me, my duck call, and a whole bunch of others.

 

Duc

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Well said McCandless.

 

Lots of fun is had competing against those in our category. I understand that some don't take fun from that, but only in the over all, and that's fine, but that is the beauty of this game as it has evolved, lots of different ways to enjoy the same game.

 

Where is the harm in having lots of categories?

Too many awards to sit thru? Then don't go.

Meaningless in small categories? To some maybe, but not to all.

Adds to the expense of a large match having to give out a lot of awards? Compared to other match costs like portapots it's really not that big a deal.

 

Now I realize that there is a point where there could be so many categories that it would be totally ridiculous. Some would say we are there now, some would not. Match directors have dealt with the situation by enforcing minimum numbers for categories, but even that often meets with objection by those whose chosen category is on the bubble.

 

Like I said before, and many times before that, lots of ways to enjoy this game, just because others enjoy it differently than you do, don't make it wrong, it's just different.

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I would suggest we add a nekkid lady category but somehow I don't think it would make the minimum number of applicants.

Then again, if we never offer it......................................?

Next time your shooting at Eldarado, look around you VERY CAREFULY. Then ask if you REALLY want to offer this catagorey. It might have unintended repercussions. Especially if they decide to be fair and offer a men's catagorey as well.

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I don't care how you spin it, a Senior shooter usually has a few physical hurdles earned along the way a 20-something shooter hasn't acquired yet. If a Senior wants to shoot with and against the younger guns, he certainly may, but once all Seniors are forced into direct competition with the younger shooters as part of an over-all category, you'll lose the bulk of them.

 

I shoot cap n' ball... it has it's own particular challenges and difficulties... Do I want to shoot directly against those who don't have to occasionally fight their errant percussion caps fouling their gun? Or, those that don't have their thumbs lock up with tendinitis because of heavy springs required to keep the hammers down on said cap?

 

If you don't believe there are physical differences between an Elder Statesman and someone just entering Senior Category, you're living in a dream world.

Age-based Categories acknowledge a reality, and allow those who choose to, shoot against those of similar physical realities. If you choose to shoot with the younger crowd, then you have the ability to do so. But, if arthritis has deformed your spine and knees like others of your age, you've earned the right to shoot within that age protected category.

 

 

Duc

That's why I suggested removing the age-based categories BETWEEN Junior and Senior. After 60, age starts to have an effect on an accelerated basis. So those categories should be left alone, I'll let you know.

 

I just turned 58 and I'll run against any 19 year old out there. If I lose, it's not due to age infirmities.

 

Fillmore

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.

Don't forget that SASS is also in the entertainment business. If this thing we have ceases to be fun, and just becomes a grind for the prize (such as it is) you'll lose me, my duck call, and a whole bunch of others.

 

Duc

 

 

Like I said before, and many times before that, lots of ways to enjoy this game, just because others enjoy it differently than you do, don't make it wrong, it's just different.

Here Here!! :) I think Doc and Grizz have hit the nail right on the head. This would be a mighty boring sport/game without folks like Doc (the Duck of Death) and Grizz around to keep us grounded. ;)

 

I'm sure JB was just stiring the winter pot anywho :wacko:

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

.

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I shudder every time I hear Classic Cowboy referred to as a "costume category." Originally there were fewer required items although there was definitely an intent to avoid the "minimalist" look.

 

What the category was really about was heavier calibers and guns that took more skill to operate quickly. In the beginning, people weren't loading .45's with hollow based 109gr bullets, the "cowboy special" brass didn't exist and .44's and .45's kicked significantly more than .38's. Hammer doubles and 87's took more work and practice to shoot quickly and there were no short stroke links for the toggle-link guns. Marlins were the hot rifles back then.

 

If Classic Cowboy rules were to be changed, I'd like to see a power factor higher than the ridiculous 60 required in other categories. Actually, most real Classic Cowboys shoot hotter loads anyway, I'd just like to see it required of everyone in CC.

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I shudder every time I hear Classic Cowboy referred to as a "costume category." Originally there were fewer required items although there was definitely an intent to avoid the "minimalist" look.

 

What the category was really about was heavier calibers and guns that took more skill to operate quickly. In the beginning, people weren't loading .45's with hollow based 109gr bullets, the "cowboy special" brass didn't exist and .44's and .45's kicked significantly more than .38's. Hammer doubles and 87's took more work and practice to shoot quickly and there were no short stroke links for the toggle-link guns. Marlins were the hot rifles back then.

 

If Classic Cowboy rules were to be changed, I'd like to see a power factor higher than the ridiculous 60 required in other categories. Actually, most real Classic Cowboys shoot hotter loads anyway, I'd just like to see it required of everyone in CC.

+1

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I am 70 years,they can take away all the categories if that what most want.I can get my butt kicked bye a 10 year old or a 90 year old.I don't really care what category I have to shoot as long as I can shoot with a pistol in each hand.If you make that one category have to shoot 40 cal. or bigger then I will have to stop shooting.I can't buy all new guns.I dress the best I can.I do my very best to do what sass wants.If a match has Senior gunfighter I will sign up for that.If they just have gunfighter then I will sign up for that.I just want to shoot.Maybe they have to many categories,I don't know,but if the categories let more people enjoy what SASS is then I am all for it.

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The FCGF post has me thinking, (dangerous, I know)

What categories should be eliminated? Don't be afraid to speak up.

I would not mind if costuming shooting categories went. SASS matches are shooting competitions based on how fast and accurately we can shoot a sequence of targets, not what kind of outfit we wear while doing it.

Boy ,AM I glad you ain't the boss!!!!! I would not mind if they eliminated FCGF.......SASS shooting are competitions that should BE EPA friendly...What about the clean air act?????????Who told you what SASS matches are?????Might want to read the rules...Make Black powder a separate shoot only for soot sniffers......That might get you some friends......Stop foolin with the rules.....You need to be in Big government.......

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I think we took a wrong turn when SASS approved all the newer age based categories and campained heavily against them at the time. However, in my honest opinion, categories are a moot point when rank scoring is used, because we are all competing against everyone in the match for rank points. If that's the way we're going to score, then dang the categories and just post the overall standings. All in all, I think the good professer has the only sensible plan out there and would back his matrix 100%. Good luck and good shooting to all.

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In the words of my evil twin brother,

 

"Leave Frontiersman alone!"

Yea! verily, Brother!

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self elimination is easy

I think it is wonderful that CAS clubs / their shoots::: can, and do offer many unofficial shooting categories

I also think that there are to many cagegories in some cases

demographics are different all over the world, so categories will vary in demand due to that very factor

 

here is an idea

no matter what the level of the CAS shoot

  • publish the categories that is going to be their base line (eliminations to follow)
  • publish a minimum of amount of shooters required to uphold that category at that shoot
  • publish the cut off date to build such a number
  • if someone then wants to shoot the one legged confederate fighter category with only one contestant, then just let em do it with no awards, let um shoot and have fun

 

just a reminder of something that has been tried and tested already

 

when gunfighter first was invented, I had to promote - promote - promote it, just so clubs would offer it, so that narrow minded madd mike could shoot it

I would help educate other shooters as to how much fun it is, to grow the talent base

that approach seemed to work well, as I think that gun fighter is one of the most popular categories talked about now, and shot by many - many - many

 

 

 

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I'm seeing a lot of good ideas and interesting replies. I'm glad I'm not the boss too! I want too see SASS grow. I'm not proposing any rule changes. I'm just inquiring about how to deal with VERY small, and ever shrinking catigories.

Mad Mike, you nailed it about publishing what will be offered and how many needed well in advance.

 

In my OP I should have used the word "scored" not "based" everyone should already be wearing their favorite old west get-up.

And big bore definitely has a place in SASS.

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Great idea, SASS is in the fun business and we all have more fun if we are winnng SO add Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter AND Frontiersman Gunfighter as our two newest SASS categories. OK, we need X number of folks to show up at the state or above level to make it work, good write it in as a rule for ALL categories to follow. I think we are on to something now, lots more categories and no longer should shooting even be a necessary part of what determines a category, oh it is already like that so lets just all come up with new ideas to create lots more categories so we can all have lots more fun! What say next year we all leave the antiquated five year age divide behind and make age based relate to birth dates, we all know that everyone gets arthritis and other diseases of ageing at the exact same rate. While we are at it lets throw in a minor, mid and major categories to separate the men from the boys and the women from the girls. We can not have it both ways, either we decide that things have gone a bit off course or we decide that costumes and birthdays are more what SASS is now about than the actual shooting, as far as recognised categories go.

 

PS: The doctor has insisted that I start trying to work out at the gym, so I went for the first time Monday. It has been really embarrassing working out next to guys ten and fifteen years older than me. Age is not a good yardstick for separating people by fitness or ability to perform anymore. We no longer follow the old rules and all die at seventy. Some are absolutely used up by seventy years while others, at eighty, are still showing up at this darn gym to humiliate me! No, birthdays are no longer a dependable separator for anything other than another reason to give awards that have nothing to do with shooting.

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Yea! verily, Brother!

 

Can I get an AMEN!!

 

Far as that goes, leave it all alone!! What awards are given ain't hurtin' nobody. If I show up to shoot and no one else chooses to shoot in my S.A.S.S. approved category it ain't my fault. Either they had something more important to do, or I scared 'em off!! <_< Why should I have to compete with my cap 'n' ball pistols against others shooting suppository wheel guns or maybe even some fellers or even ladies shooting smokeless rounds, depending on the participation of others?? Like Grizz said, a little token or plaque is NOT that expensive. I've seen beautiful buckles handed out in large quantities at the more successful matches and found that they cost less than $10.00 a piece. Still fewer than half of the participants took home prizes, but everybody was a little happier and the next year those shoots had more applications than the year before!

 

There's gotta' be some reason these matches are successful year after year. Awards and more categories??

 

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...............COULD BE!

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The FCGF post has me thinking, (dangerous, I know)

What categories should be eliminated? Don't be afraid to speak up.

I would not mind if costuming shooting categories went. SASS matches are shooting competitions based on how fast and accurately we can shoot a sequence of targets, not what kind of outfit we wear while doing it.

I don't think you need to eliminate any categories, and in fact could probably open the doors to as many as people want.

They cost nothing to add into the scoring programs, and then the scorekeepers can let the software do the sorting.

 

If there is only one person shooting in that category on a given day - so what - doesn't cost anyone anything in terms of standing or overall placement.

 

The game is scored in Rank Points for an overall rack and stack of players scores. It is independent of categories. If you elect to dress a specific way, or shoot a certain

style of propellant or firearm, that is your choice and it will perhaps have a bearing on your overall score. It's your choice of how to play this game.

 

As long as the scoring software can tally the various categories you can see where you placed relative to your friends and foe's alike. I think most who shoot in a category

aren't looking for a certificate or award nearly as much as they are looking to see how they did against like minded shooters in a match.

 

If the giving of awards for all the various categories if too time consuming or expensive, then pick the top number of categories you will honor with awards or trophies and

publicize it before taking match entry fees.

 

Then we can start a steampunk category!!

 

Shadow Catcher

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Okay, I'm living dangerously today. :o;)

 

I think most of the categories are fine as they are. Except, I would do the following.

  • Make FCGF official. It fits with the other FC categories of Duelist and plain FC, which implies a two-handed grip.
  • Leave Frontiersman, CC, and BW as is due to their unique characteristics.
  • Allow GF in all age-based categories (after all, we allow BP and duelist-style in them).
  • Delete Senior Duelist. This category is not logical :ph34r: to have as official, as it leads some folks to want Senior GF, ES Duelist,...in other words shooting-style or propellant combined with any age-based shooting-style category. Why have SD as official and not the others?
  • Then, it is up to the MD to select the additional categories based on participation using something like Professor BS's Matrix. For example, have the applicants select sex, propellant, shooting style, age and let the MD's (or appointees) determine what is the appropriate category at a match. When they send the confirmations, let the shooter know their category and give an email address and/or phone number for changes.

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

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Okay, I'm living dangerously today. :o;)

 

I think most of the categories are fine as they are. Except, I would do the following.

  • Make FCGF official. It fits with the other FC categories of Duelist and plain FC, which implies a two-handed grip.
  • Leave Frontiersman, CC, and BW as is due to their unique characteristics.
  • Allow GF in all age-based categories (after all, we allow BP and duelist-style in them).
  • Delete Senior Duelist. This category is not logical :ph34r: to have as official, as it leads some folks to want Senior GF, ES Duelist,...in other words shooting-style or propellant combined with any age-based shooting-style category. Why have SD as official and not the others?
  • Then, it is up to the MD to select the additional categories based on participation using something like Professor BS's Matrix. For example, have the applicants select sex, propellant, shooting style, age and let the MD's (or appointees) determine what is the appropriate category at a match. When they send the confirmations, let the shooter know their category and give an email address and/or phone number for changes.

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

Bingo!!!! I think ya just nailed it Allie. ;)

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Senior Duelist is a strange combination of age first, then style, then disregard the fixed sight prohibition that other duelists must work under. This one was not thought out well. It really should be redefined or, better, eliminated.

 

In my opinion, it's the poster child for "I want a category I can win in with the guns I've got" rather than following some sort of logic.

 

Good luck, GJ

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