Thinking About Getting an AR-15

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I've only shot one once and have never really been all that interested in "black" rifles, plus, I have enough other wooden ones. But now that Biden has appointed Kamala as gun grabbing czar and apparently intends to make them a campaign issue, I suddenly want one. No way to justify it rationally. But now, just because - y'know?

 

There are scads of these out there and I don't really know where to begin. I want a "standard" gun -- (black, looks like a standard issue military Colt) as opposed to one with all the bling and accoutrements such as folding stocks etc. One that shoots and functions well out of the box and doesn't need gunsmithing, if that even exists. It'll be for target shooting only as opposed to hunting. A basic scope is something to consider as my 70-year-old eyes ain't what they used to be. Maybe a suppressor down the road, but I don't have the funds for that right now. Needs to shoot commonly available ammo & components for reloading. So here goes:

 

I don't trust the mainstream gun rags. Where do I look for unbiased info? What credible sources are there online?

What's an average price point?

What caliber - .223, 5.56?

What brand?

New or used? 

What are common issues to used are there to look out for?

What features are necessary as opposed to optional?

Build my own? (I'm pretty handy, but perhaps this is too big a step right now.)

What's some b**s**t gun counter sales speak I should look out for?

 

I'm open to anything else you good folks have to add. Thanks, pards!

 

[Gungadin]

You can name yours Kamala, mine have presidential names based on the dictator of the time.

 

At the low end you can look at Palmetto State Armory or Bear Creek Arsenal.  They get you functional while thumbing you noses at our Kings and Queens.

 

I believe the Wilde Barrel is 'optimized' to shoot both 223 and 5.56.  I think people will tell you not to get a 223 barrel as you want the option of 5.56.  I's have to read up on the limitations.  Chrome lined barrel?  No need, you will never shoot it out but if you want better...  It is easy to do the entire assembly but it is especially easy if the barrel is already installed on the upper.  Plenty of info on Youtube and the internet on how to build, maybe Youtube took it down but you will find good instructions.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I’ve owned several, shot them a couple times and sold them. I bought them because of what you’re saying, first it was Obama, then Covid and I almost bought one when Biden was elected. The problem is I really have nowhere to shoot it except for 3 indoor ranges close to me. Boring ! If you have a place you can stretch out to 100 yds or more then go for it. I’d stay with a name brand, S&W, Colt, Rock River or Ruger are among the ones I owned. Good luck!

[Trigger Mike]

Now days they are getting super cheap.  Colts still bring close to 1000z.  Palmetto state firearms less than 600.  Smith and Wesson makes a very reliable and accurate version and can be had around 700.  Never tried a palmetto state but heard good things about them.  I have the smith and Wesson and love it.  Colt does well.  A local dealer called vidalia police supply will ship to your ffl and makes an excellent rifle and will help you put together what you want.  
 

if you want a scope, sig Sauer sells a nice AR scope with mount for less than 400 .  Palmetto state armory sells them and will ship them.  Very clear glass, mounted it on a Wilson AR and nothing is more accurate.  If you want a scope get a rifle without the carry handle .  

[John Kloehr]

3-gun and similar competitions is a fine sporting use. Since it is not a high-accuracy sport, a .223-only chrome-lined barrel is unnecessary. And if you do get one, use only nylon brushes in it.

 

It is an AR-15, most are mil spec. This means sufficient quality. The other common term is MOE (Magpul Original Equipment).

 

For 3-gun, a Palmetto will be just fine. More than brand issues, stay away from polymer lowers (easier to break) and stay away from fancy upgrades (unless you are really good, none of them will make a difference. At some point you might want to upgrade the trigger. There are a few other upgrades you might want over time. You will know when you are ready to make use of them.

 

A scope is possible, just get an AR with a rail on top. MBUS sights are pretty good for sport though.

 

I have 3 ARs, one built and the other 2 are still stripped lowers.

 

While you state an interest in the AR, you specify the motivation is to have a Kamela gun. Have you ever shot an AK? Has a little more personality and now available in traditional and 5.56 chambering. Also now a Palmetto product.

 

For either, there is no need to go high-end for a good shooter.

 

I did recently acquire this (in 7.62):

 

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psak-47-gf5-forged-chf-moekov-alg-rifle-black.html

 

A basic rifle is about half this price. I have already upgraded the muzzle brake on mine.

 

[Pat Riot]

Screw Biden and Screw Harris

Just wanted to get that out of the way. 
 

I have assembled a few and bought a couple. If you aren’t interested in assembling one yourself people like to say that’s the cheapest way to go. What they don’t say is the tools that are needed cost money and then there’s the need to look up parts and information and one forum everyone loves PSA on another everyone hates PSA (as an example maker). 
I think for your first gun you should buy one fully made and with the sights and equipment you want on it. 
Smith & Wesson, Ruger, Daniel Defense and others make some great complete AR-15s. There are many more manufacturers. These just popped to mind. 
Personally, the .223 / 5.56 round does nothing for me at all. Over time I sold or gave away all my AR-15s.
I bought a Ruger SFAR in .308 Winchester / 7.62x51. Now this one I really like. All I needed to do was add sights and a sling. If I have a problem with it I call Ruger. 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

If you watch the specials from Palmetto State you can probably put one together using one of their plain jane blemished lowers (don't let the blemish put you off, it is likely a tiny flaw in the anodizing or a scratch or ding that you would have to look hard to find), a lower build kit, and a complete upper for under $500.  

 

I decided to get one several years ago when the CA Legislature did an all out blitz against our civil rights.  Then, over a few years spent money on different conversion kits to make them comply with new laws passed to "close loopholes" caused by complying with previous laws. Finally went "featureless."

 

Some minor changes since these photos, like taking the optics off the top one (my wife's) and replacing it with iron sights, and adding some right side offset sights to make it easier for her to use with her wrist problems.

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

I'll add that one of the advantages of the AR platform is that with different uppers, and if necessary different bolts and magazines, you can quickly and inexpensively change calibers.

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

I'd just get one of these,

https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-pa-15-16-nitride-m4-carbine-5-56-nato-classic-ar-15-rifle-with-13-5-m-lok-rail-black.html

 

remember you can change any part to suite your needs later.

[Sedalia Dave]

For reliability proper lubrication is a must. 
 

 

 My first was a DPMS. Manual stated in bold letters “DO NOT USE REM OIL”. 
 Called them and they told me a good synthetic 30 wt motor oil would never let me down. 
 

 Never shoot steel case ammo in it. It will cause the extractor to fail. 
 

 Hard to go wrong with an AR from PSA. 

[John Kloehr]

57 minutes ago, Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 said:

I'd just get one of these,

https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-pa-15-16-nitride-m4-carbine-5-56-nato-classic-ar-15-rifle-with-13-5-m-lok-rail-black.html

 

remember you can change any part to suite your needs later.

Add $100 for sights, or put it towards any optic or scope.

 

I'll agree blems are almost undetectable, and will not affect shooting or durability. And are nothing compared to the marks you will apply in the heat of the first competition.

 

I think the folks bashing Palmetto prefer $1,500+ guns. Just like some diss Rock Island Armory because their 1911s are not "real" Colts. RIA 1911s shoot just fine. (Full disclosure, my 1911 guns are 2 Springfields and 1 Sig)

 

I did just steer a buddy to a basic Palmetto AR and he is loving it. But now I am helping him sort out a 22lr conversion for it so he can also use it in various Rimfire sports. There are a lot of considerations on this so let's get back to as-shipped.

 

Bench rest. With .223 and peep sights, he shoots +/- 3" at 25 yards. Then I tried it, and I am +/- 1/4 inch with his gun at the same distance (3 rounds for each of us). Then I sighted it in, getting it to 2" low and an inch right before we ran out of time. Will work with him at getting some sort of a 100 yard zero soon. I think the rear sight is affecting his accuracy, the large hole is too small. Also putting on a front crosshair would probably help him visualize where the round will impact. Then no drilling the rear.

 

On his gun, I would consider maybe upgrading the rear stock to something with more pad, but he is not complaining, it is something I notice. Affects comfort, not accuracy. His as-equipped muzzle device is not affecting him (or me) at this time, it has eaten several brands of .223 and 5.56 with no hiccups. cycles fine, mags go in and out fine, the upper does not rattle against the lower, the trigger is crisp and no grit with maybe just a hair longer reset than I would like (but I compare to race guns); really stretching to find complaints for this basic gun.

 

On edit: I did build my first PSA AR from scratch, I bought the blem lower and then bought the absolute cheapest parts Palmetto offers for the rest of the build. There really was no savings by doing so, as I spent far more on tools. My next two builds will address whatever I find important and I might break even on my 3rd build. That one is a 300BO subsonic suppressed SBR. I'm paid up with the ATF on it.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

I bought a S&W MP 15 Sport II four years ago for the same reason - "on principle".

 

Took it out shooting with my neighbor and after a little while I turned to him and said "this thing is boring"! Shoot, hit, shoot, hit. etc.

 

So, I have one in 5.56 just to tick off those that say I can't and am glad I do.

[ORNERY OAF]

 

Easy,decent price,colt factory gun, warranty, good odds of maintaining some value...all ya need is optic. Maybe a light. $1020.99 shipped and Buds is awesome to deal with.

[John Kloehr]

@Abilene Slim SASS 81783 If you are interested, I can post some AK perceptions in a few days. I shot AK Masters with a Norinco "Chicom" Mak90 and did not like a number of items, so I bought the PSA GF5 as prep for Winter Motherland. AKs have a certain following. 

 

There are also "928" considerations, so starting with a US manufactured gun makes it easier to stay out of ATF crosshairs. Depending on your imported AK, simply swapping the US magazine to an imported magazine may be a felony depending on how many imported parts are already on your gun. Well, certain parts, not all parts, They have a list. But if you swap an listed imported part for a US part, then you can swap a US mag for an imported mag.

 

Maybe I should name my new gun Kamela. And only run Chinese, Polish, Russian, Yugoslavian, Romanian, Czeckoslovakian, and other imported magazines. (some are better than others).

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

If you watch the specials from Palmetto State you can probably put one together using one of their plain jane blemished lowers (don't let the blemish put you off, it is likely a tiny flaw in the anodizing or a scratch or ding that you would have to look hard to find), a lower build kit, and a complete upper for under $500.  

 

I decided to get one several years ago when the CA Legislature did an all out blitz against our civil rights.  Then, over a few years spent money on different conversion kits to make them comply with new laws passed to "close loopholes" caused by complying with previous laws. Finally went "featureless."

 

Some minor changes since these photos, like taking the optics off the top one (my wife's) and replacing it with iron sights, and adding some right side offset sights to make it easier for her to use with her wrist problems.

 

Looks like a science fiction movie  armorers wet dream.

[Subdeacon Joe]

3 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

Looks like a science fiction movie  armorers wet dream.

 

Yep.  But they are comfortable to shoot and those stocks etc. allowed me to go back to the designed magazine release.

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

Is Stag Arms still in business? They used to have some pretty good AR's.

I used to have a kinda high-end AR , a KAC (Knight's Armament) , but it was a safe queen for years. I sold it not too long ago to a lad in Florida.

Rex 

[Rip Snorter]

If I were into that, any name brand at the best price, 5.56.  Throw a decent red dot on it and sight it in at 100 yards.  Check out correction factors for more distance.  Practice a bit and you are good to go at the functional level.  I reacted to Clinton the same way, but really wasn't interested and traded it along.

[Pat Riot]

By the way these sre great red dot sights. This model in particular has the high mount for AR’s and the low mount if you want to put it on another gun. 
 

Sig Sauer SOR52001 Romeo5 1x20mm Compact 2 Moa Red Dot Sight, Black + Lens Cleaning Cloth https://a.co/d/8wwXYlC

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

@Abilene Slim SASS 81783 If you are interested, I can post some AK perceptions in a few days. I shot AK Masters with a Norinco "Chicom" Mak90 and did not like a number of items, so I bought the PSA GF5 as prep for Winter Motherland. AKs have a certain following. 

 

There are also "928" considerations, so starting with a US manufactured gun makes it easier to stay out of ATF crosshairs. Depending on your imported AK, simply swapping the US magazine to an imported magazine may be a felony depending on how many imported parts are already on your gun. Well, certain parts, not all parts, They have a list. But if you swap an listed imported part for a US part, then you can swap a US mag for an imported mag.

 

Maybe I should name my new gun Kamela. And only run Chinese, Polish, Russian, Yugoslavian, Romanian, Czeckoslovakian, and other imported magazines. (some are better than others).

Yes, please post those impressions. 

[sassnetguy50]

3 hours ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

Is Stag Arms still in business? They used to have some pretty good AR's.

I used to have a kinda high-end AR , a KAC (Knight's Armament) , but it was a safe queen for years. I sold it not too long ago to a lad in Florida.

Rex 

Stag Arms and Spike Tactical are both good.  You can call or email in the serial number to be sure it was a factory gun, not a home build from a stripped lower.  

 

@Pat Riot and @John Kloehr 

Can you elaborate on these AR specific tools?  A $20 ar wrench is the only thing coming to mind.  I agree that it is not worth the time currently to search for every part on sale unless you want a very specific build.

[Sedalia Dave]

Midway USA has a good video tutorial on How To Build an AR-15 Rifle

 

Brownells also has a lot of assembly videos.

 

Some lists to get you started. Note that many of the tools in the lists below are not mandatory, However they make the assembly of some parts a LOT easier.

 

Tools you need to Build an AR-15.

 

Building an AR15: 11 tools you’ll need

 

Best AR-15 Build Tools to Help You Get Started

 

If you decide to build your upper from scratch you'll also need a set of Go/NoGo gauges for verifying the proper head space.

 

 

[Pat Riot]

5 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

Can you elaborate on these AR specific tools?  A $20 ar wrench is the only thing coming to mind.  I agree that it is not worth the time currently to search for every part on sale unless you want a very specific build.

A $20 wrench? I bought a cheap wrench once and the wrench snapped installing a barrel. I marred the finish and got a nice chunk taken out my knuckle. 
 

Cheap tools give one cheap results. 
 

@Sedalia Dave Pretty much covered it. 
I would add this:

Upper Vice block - I recommend a Magpul BEV tool. No flexing the receiver when installing a barrel. You can find them cheaper. 

https://magpul.com/bev-block-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118

Regarding buying headspace gauges; some say if you buy a good barrel and bolt you shouldn’t have any worries. Others say always headspace check regardless. I never have, but I always bought good bolts and barrels. If you buy the bolt and barrel from the same manufacturer you should be good to go , but I always call and ask if I should check headspace. 
The last build I did I went to an LGS where I bought some of my parts and had them Cerakote my gun. They checked my headspace for me. 

Buying local for your assembly parts may cost you a little more, but they can also help you with assembly issues. Most gun stores that specialize in tactical guns will be more than happy to help you out with your build and problems you may encounter. 
 

We make fun of “Tacticool” gun stores here sometimes, but it’s all in fun. These guys can really help you and who knows, you might make some new acquaintances there. 
 

@Abilene Slim SASS 81783

One recommendation I have for you regardless if you build or buy. Make sure you buy an “Oops Kit”. It contains parts and springs that tend to get away or get messed up on assembly / disassembly of ARs. 
Here’s an example by Brownells: https://www.brownells.com/gun-parts/rifle-parts/rifle-upper-lower-parts-kits/mp-ar-essentials-kit/

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If your really paranoid, er (suspicious of future government regulations) you can go shopping on Outdoor trader and buy your AR-15 face to face from a local individual.  No 4473 paper trail in most states.  This only works in the current "free" states.  

 

https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/classifieds/

[Sixgun Seamus]

For a basic model, you can't beat a S&W OR model. The only improvements were a Trijicon Sportview 1.25×4 and an improved trigger. (Can't remember make of trigger but I can look it up).The optics cost more than the gun but you have a nice combo of red dot and low power scope. This rifle is very accurate and has given groundhogs a "dirt nap" at well over 100 yds with the 4 power.

Disclaimer - this gun was unfortunately lost in the boating accident.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

I really like the Ruger MPR. We all know the name and how they stand behind their guns. 

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

If you just are in try out mode, buy something easy to sell.

A Colt or a ruger or the cheapest one you find in the style you like.

Shoot it for a week or a month or a year and you should know  if you

want to keep it. OR sell it and be done OR sell it and get a better one.

Ruger seems to back their products very well.

Best

CR

 

[John Kloehr]

7 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

 @John Kloehr 

Can you elaborate on these AR specific tools?  A $20 ar wrench is the only thing coming to mind.  I agree that it is not worth the time currently to search for every part on sale unless you want a very specific build.

If you do not mind a few marks, a set of vice grips can work.

 

My tool purchases are not AR specific, they are firearms-general and firearms-dedicated tools, not mixed in with my home repair or automotive tools. For instance several sets of punches for roll pins (brass, steel), machinist-grade screwdriver tips, a good scale, a trigger pull gauge, good calipers and a calibration block, some sockets and wrenches, more. Also a torque wrench. All of this will take several builds and other personal repairs to "burn off."

 

Also have a Magpul armorer's wrench. This is highly recommended for an AR build. If building an upper, then also a headspace gauge. Everything else is probably already in a typical toolbox.

[Buckshot Bob]

If you’re willing to spend some $$ these are sweet . I have the Virtus , the predecessor to the Lt .I like it better than my AR’s 

https://www.sigsauer.com/firearms/rifles-pistols/sig-mcx.html

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/102577272?pid=295365

[Gungadin]

Little off topic but the Hoplophobes are afraid of black rifles and 30 round mags.  But think about your 1897 Shotgun.  Load it with 2" shells with 21 #4 Buck.  I expect you could get 7 in with the 21" barrel?  That is 147 24 caliber projectiles without reloading a Magazine.  That is effectively 5 mags of 30.  Now the hydrostatic shock is less but .... that is 18th century technology.

 

You don't need an AR.... you just want one because they say 'NO'.  But they shouldn't be telling us what we need and that is the problem.  Somebody says 'We are grown ____ adults.

 

Go enforce the border and do some drug interdiction.....

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I have a 223/556 and an AR10 in 308.  556 has all kinds of ammo for sale cheap to match. 308 is $$$

556 nice to shot and no shoulder issues. 308 a lot more kick.

AR15's all kinds of uppers available in all kinds of barrel lengths and calibers. I have an upper for long distance, 500 yards and one for plinking.

AR10 not so much.

As to sights the 556 is basically flat out to 200 yards. So any red dot sight will work.

[Texas Maverick]

15 hours ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

I bought a S&W MP 15 Sport II four years ago for the same reason - "on principle".

 

Took it out shooting with my neighbor and after a little while I turned to him and said "this thing is boring"! Shoot, hit, shoot, hit. etc.

 

So, I have one in 5.56 just to tick off those that say I can't and am glad I do.

I bought the same gun during the Obamie era and it is still new in the box. I did buy a nice optical for it but have never fired it. I also bought 1000+ rounds of JHP and 1000+ of FMJ rounds to go with it. I also bought an AK47 that I have fired and it is now my truck gun. 

 

TM

[Rye Miles #13621]

I wouldn’t mind having one in 9mm

[J.D. Daily]

You can assemble an AR wo/tools; however, all the special tools speed the assembly & if you want to change parts are really helpful.  An upper vise block prevents buggering the upper receiver.  The 1st AR build & the only complete build was an AR-10 precision 308 rifle.  I already owned an armorers wrench & delta ring tool.  I had these for working on my 1999 Colt A2 HBAR Target.  Because I knew I would build so AR-15's I bought a set of vise blocks for AR-10's & AR-15's..  I also bought roll pin starters which save on frustration starting roll pins.  I had a high end roll pin punch set I inherited from my dad (he bought quality tools).  Nice to have tools are: reaction rod. front take down pin tool (easier to use than a drill bit), bolt catch/release tool set (offset roll pin starter & offset roll pin starter, I only needed it to replace mil-spec bolt release with an oversized one).  I have built: 3 lowers & 2 uppers & plan on building another when Faxon offers a 20" 400 Legend barrel.  I also bought 2 complete uppers 300BO, 223 Wylde & BRN-180.  I build all my lowers because I want a better trigger than mil-spec.  While I haven't used it I bought a trigger test jig when Brownells had them at an attractive price same for a gas key stacking tool.

All my AR's have optics, magnified, reflex & one SeeAll.  I find that the reflex & SeeAll work best mounted on the Pic Rail hand guard for fast target acquisition.

The Colt is my most a accurate AR-15.  One AR-15 lower I built from a PSA limited addition themed stripped lower.  It is the Sleepy Joe "Dog Faced Pony Soldier AR-14".  I installed a Fostech ECHO II binary trigger, a folding stock adapter & enhanced bolt/catch/release.

I have found that now it isn't cheaper to build an AR upper unless you want a specific barrel or hand guard.  In 2020 before out of state internet sellers per SCOTUS had to charge sales tax it was cheaper to build lowers unless you live in the area where the FFL transfer fees are equal to sales taxes or you live in a state that comes after residents who buy stuff out of state & don't remit the use tax due.

[Pb Mark]

Just a few quick comments.  Opinion only.

 

Buy a stock rifle, do not build one.  If you ever decide to upgrade to another or just sell it, stock rifle keeps its value.

 

If buying an upper, look at the barrel steel and decide if you want melanite or chrome lined.  4150 and 41V45 are better steel than 4140.

 

All of us reload, so buy yourself "small base: sizing dies just for this one.  Prevents jams when feeding but harder on the brass.  I call it a safety issue to use non-small base sizing die.

 

Think seriously about an AR10 style.  308 Winchester is more fun than 223.  Call it your fun range gun.  Of course, 223 less expensive to feed.

 

I will not make an opinion call about the rifle brand for you.  Personally, do really like the Smith MP10 Sport for the factory fully ambidextrous controls at the price point.  If you are looking for a true battle rifle, only shop high-end stuff and 223 is plentiful.  LWRC, CMMG, DD, FN, HK, POF, etc.  Lots of great AR's out there.

 

You will need to decide Di or piston in the AR platform.  DI is more accurate typically. Piston does not crap in the receiver.  Pro's and cons of both.

 

IF I was deciding and could afford, it would be a top end Fulton Armory M1a.