Thinking About Getting an AR-15

[J.D. Daily]

23 hours ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

 

You can find from time to time the CMMG 22LR conversion kit for $170.  Loading the magazine is a PITA.  As bad as the PMAG drum.

 

The 1st 308 Rifle I have is a heavy 15 lbs with 5x25 30 mm tube optic & bipod wo/magazine.  The recoil is objectionable.  The 2nd one is a PTR HK91 clone.  Its' recoil is OK.  Shooting two magazines (40 rounds) doesn't give me a soar shoulder.  The last time I shot it I also fired my CMP 30-06 Garand.  I only fired 3 clips of CMP match ammo and it wasn't as bad as I thought.  The worst recoil is from 3 1/2" inch 12 ga steel shot fired from my Benelli SBE II.

P.S. 1) In 1969 in Army basic I  qualified on the M-14 & M-16 I didn't like the M-14's recoil.  I no long dislike the recoil from a 308 battle rifle.

2) Due to the scarcity of Garand safe 30-06 I decided to replace the gas plug to lower the peak pressure on the gas piston.  Two years ago the only place I could find it was the CMP.

 

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

I saw this in a LGS here. A double barrel AR 15. They also come in 16" barrels.

 

https://www.gilboa-rifle.silver-shadow.com/page-2/page-11/

[sassnetguy50]

2 hours ago, Horace Patootie, SASS #35798 said:

I saw this in a LGS here. A double barrel AR 15. They also come in 16" barrels.

 

https://www.gilboa-rifle.silver-shadow.com/page-2/page-11/

A couple of those with FRTs and you'll be buying ammunition by the drum.

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

They use standard mags or two connected. Two triggers, two sets of internals. Standard parts except upper and lower.

Also, you can adjust one barrel left/right and the other barrel is up/down, so you can adjust POI. I wouldn't mind having

one but they're like $2400.

Horace

[One Gun Jimmy]

4 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

Yeah, no kidding. It looks like bulk 458 SOCOM is 70% and more higher than bulk .308. Specialty rounds are twice the price of .308 in some cases. 
 

I was in a gun store this morning just scanning ammo and prices. .300 Win Mag is stupid high. Glad I don’t have one of those. At least was on the shelf. I haven’t seen 45-70 in a store for a long time. Glad I reload. 

My local bigger store has a palet of 45-70

[ShadowCatcher]

FWIW I tend to agree with the folks who suggested that you run a gun from a name brand maker.  I was

shopping for a 20" Colt when I got a new FN A4 configured rifle.  I like the 20" gun as that seems to

get everything you can from the 5.56 round.

 

I'm a member of the Appleseed project, so I got to reacquaint myself with iron sights and distance

shooting to 400 yds.  I recently sold my FN rifle to a friend for her to give to her new hubby

for Christmas, and built myself a slick sided AR in 5.56 for out here in the hinterlands.

I kept the total weight down on the rifle - 6.5 lbs right now, with irons only.

 

Planning to put a red dot on it soon and zero for 50 yds (our local LE do that as well), as I

doubt I'll be using it past that range and if so I can knock the RDS off and use irons if all else fails.

 

I built a second lower that matches the 5.56 gun, and put a Nordic Components .22 upper on it,

and matching stock, sights and trigger.  Gun shoots 1/2 inch groups at 25 meters using CCI

std velocity ammo.  I have a cheap RDS on this one for shooting at our local steel matches.

 

The 5.56 is really just to have for SHTF stuff, so I take it to the outdoor range and practice snap

shooting and some basic 3 position stuff 2 or 3 times a year.  I have other rifles of the more

rustic persuasion for other stuff.

 

I get a lot more mileage from the .22!

 

SC

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:39 PM, PowderRiverCowboy said:

Note you can run .233 in a 5.56chamber but not the other way around  , except if it is .223 Wilde that's a in-between . I prefer chambered for 5.56 as thats what I run most of .

I comply with the 'no 5.56 in .223 chambers, .223 in 5.56 is okay' warnings. Better safe than sorry, and the explanations sound very reasonable, as well as manufacturers' warnings.

 

But I have to wonder -- where are the blown gun pictures?

 

Take almost any other dire warning regarding firearms -- overcharging powder, wrong powder, 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge gun, etc., etc., etc. -- and you have plenty of people sharing, 'BEWARE! THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!' pictures of blown cylinders, shattered breeches, bulged barrels  etc.

 

But 5.56 in a .223 chamber -- nothing. Can't find 'em.

 

I don't hang with hard-core AR types, but I really can't say I've heard any actual first-person, 'Hell, I was there,' accounts of catastrophic outcomes from 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

 

Does anyone here have any actual eye-witness stories of 5.56 causing problems in a .223 chamber, or is it all, 'Yeah, I knew a guy who said he knew a guy who had a friend who told him about . . .'

[John Kloehr]

Easy to find damage from .300 BO in a 5.56, finding pics for 5.56 in .223 chamber is harder. Did find this one after several minutes, the .300 BO error is more dramatic.:

 

https://tacticalgunreview.com/223-vs-5-56-explained-in-plain-english/

 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

Easy to find damage from .300 BO in a 5.56, finding pics for 5.56 in .223 chamber is harder. Did find this one after several minutes, the .300 BO error is more dramatic.:

 

https://tacticalgunreview.com/223-vs-5-56-explained-in-plain-english/

 

The comments were interesting. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

4 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

I comply with the 'no 5.56 in .223 chambers, .223 in 5.56 is okay' warnings. Better safe than sorry, and the explanations sound very reasonable, as well as manufacturers' warnings.

 

But I have to wonder -- where are the blown gun pictures?

 

Take almost any other dire warning regarding firearms -- overcharging powder, wrong powder, 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge gun, etc., etc., etc. -- and you have plenty of people sharing, 'BEWARE! THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!' pictures of blown cylinders, shattered breeches, bulged barrels  etc.

 

But 5.56 in a .223 chamber -- nothing. Can't find 'em.

 

I don't hang with hard-core AR types, but I really can't say I've heard any actual first-person, 'Hell, I was there,' accounts of catastrophic outcomes from 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

 

Does anyone here have any actual eye-witness stories of 5.56 causing problems in a .223 chamber, or is it all, 'Yeah, I knew a guy who said he knew a guy who had a friend who told him about . . .'

I found this:

 

”However, in the wrong circumstances, problems may occur. Combine ammunition that is toward the top end of satisfactory safety limits with hot summer temperatures and slightly too much fouling in the chamber, you may find yourself running into serious trouble. The rifle is not likely to blow up, though it is possible. It is more likely that you will experience the primer blowing out of the primer pocket on the case. This can result in the primer finding its way into the internal parts of your rifle. This mishap could possibly prevent your rifle from shooting or create a far more dangerous situation.”

 

https://www.virtusammo.com/difference-between-223-and-5-56-nato/#:~:text=The biggest difference between the two types of ammunition is,223 ammunition.

 

 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Never was a AR person.  Then our department made us trade in our Mini 14's for that plastic, steel and aluminum rifle.  I was not a fan of fixing what wasn't broken.  I accepted the change and learned as much as possible about the weapon.  I am not a expert, whether self proclaimed or actual but I did learn a few things about the AR platform.  First and foremost:  Keep it simple and keep it affordable.  There are many quality rifles being made that will not break the bank.  Second:  Iron sights or optics, choose a optic that you can shoot through when the batteries fail, simply put have manual fold down sights on that rifle.  We settled on two that seemed to be the most reliable and always choose waterproof.  Third:  Good aftermarket trigger assemblies are wonderful.  Lastly:  Pick a caliber that you can afford to shoot.  And the rest is up to you.....Hope this helps.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I bought an AR 15 leading up to one of the elections (Obama) when people were really worried about what was going to happen next as far as restrictions or bans, particularly here in California. People were paying big prices for even run of the mill cheaper guns to at least have something. 

 

JP rifles did not raise their prices and was prioritizing delivering rifles to the more restrictive states. I went ahead and bought one mainly just because the government and many people don't want us to have them. It is a great rifle but I haven't shot it a lot. Thought I might try modern 3 gun but never did. Still glad I have it.

[John Kloehr]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The comments were interesting. 

Indeed, I just read them. The pic may have a 5.56 barrel. Does not matter what a lower is marked as, furniture on the upper consistent with the lower. 
 

Well, after some minutes in my search, that was the closest I came up with. 
 

Absent photo evidence, I’ll still stick with the recommendations. Good practice for when I build my .300 BO rifle… definitely do not want to mix those with my other guns. 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

5 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Easy to find damage from .300 BO in a 5.56, finding pics for 5.56 in .223 chamber is harder. Did find this one after several minutes, the .300 BO error is more dramatic.:

 

https://tacticalgunreview.com/223-vs-5-56-explained-in-plain-english/

 

When I have others shooting with me I use color coded Magazine bands on mags and rifle to separate  the .300 from 5.56 . 
  
This is a pretty interesting read..
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

[Sedalia Dave]

Note there are three ammunition standards currently in use.

 

SAAMI - Measures pressure at the mid point of the case.

C.I.P - Measures pressure 25 mm forward of the base.

NATO EPVAT - Measures pressure at the case mouth.

 

Keep in mind that while the measurements taken using the SAAMI method will be very close to the measurements taken using the CIP method; SAAMI and CIP do not always agree on max pressures for a given cartridge.

 

 

A good write up.  Is There a Difference Between .223 and 5.56?

 

 

 

 

[PowderRiverCowboy]

One issue I don't have is mistaking the .300BO for a .458 SOCOM (when you don't care if offending party sees another sunrise )

 

.300BO vs .458 SOCOM

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

6 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Easy to find damage from .300 BO in a 5.56, finding pics for 5.56 in .223 chamber is harder. Did find this one after several minutes, the .300 BO error is more dramatic.:

 

https://tacticalgunreview.com/223-vs-5-56-explained-in-plain-english/

 

From every thing I've read Colt has never chambered an AR in .223. Even the ones marked .223 were 5,56

[Pb Mark]

Dumb question for those who reload for their AR's:

 

Am I the only person who teaches and/or requires that the sizing die be a small base die??

 

[Pat Riot]

1 hour ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

When I have others shooting with me I use color coded Magazine bands on mags and rifle to separate  the .300 from 5.56 . 
  
This is a pretty interesting read..
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

Definitely some good advice. 
 

I never delved into other cartridges with my ARs. A buddy of mine had several. His uppers were colored coded to the cartridge and his mag colors matched the color of the uppers. 
I commented to him that it must be expensive. He said he didn’t think too much about it until someone fired a mismatched cartridge in the wrong upper and ended up with new conversation ice breakers in the guise of scars he could talk about. I guess the guy needed some stitches. 
 

[Possum Stu]

I’m no expert, but have put together several ARs. All were built using stripped lowers, and ready-made PSA uppers. The oldest and the one I’ve shot most I built during the Obama years. The others were built 2020 during the “Summer of Love”. I haven’t had a problem with any of them to date. 

The lowers were easy to put together. I haven’t tried assembling a stripped upper yet. 

 

The only special tool I bought was a buffer tube wrench, and despite being a cheap one, I haven’t had a problem with it. 
 

Watch the sales at PSA, particularly on their blems, and you can put together a nice shooter. 

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

8 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Dumb question for those who reload for their AR's:

 

Am I the only person who teaches and/or requires that the sizing die be a small base die??

 

I think that's already been pointed out. When I bought my first set of dies, 40 or more years ago I was asked what they were for , AR15, then you need small base.

[One Gun Jimmy]

9 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

I comply with the 'no 5.56 in .223 chambers, .223 in 5.56 is okay' warnings. Better safe than sorry, and the explanations sound very reasonable, as well as manufacturers' warnings.

 

But I have to wonder -- where are the blown gun pictures?

 

Take almost any other dire warning regarding firearms -- overcharging powder, wrong powder, 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge gun, etc., etc., etc. -- and you have plenty of people sharing, 'BEWARE! THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!' pictures of blown cylinders, shattered breeches, bulged barrels  etc.

 

But 5.56 in a .223 chamber -- nothing. Can't find 'em.

 

I don't hang with hard-core AR types, but I really can't say I've heard any actual first-person, 'Hell, I was there,' accounts of catastrophic outcomes from 5.56 in a .223 chamber.

 

Does anyone here have any actual eye-witness stories of 5.56 causing problems in a .223 chamber, or is it all, 'Yeah, I knew a guy who said he knew a guy who had a friend who told him about . . .'

Most of the time it blows the magazine out but dosent cause catastrophic damage

[Dubious Don #56333]

3 hours ago, PowderRiverCowboy said:

When I have others shooting with me I use color coded Magazine bands on mags and rifle to separate  the .300 from 5.56 . 
  
This is a pretty interesting read..
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

 

 

This LuckyGunner article is pretty spot on. Mirrors my own experience. 5.56 in a .223 chamber isn't going to blow it up. Might pop a primer, though the pieces of which falling into the working parts tend to gum things up a bit. The only times I saw this was summer, which in AZ gets to the low to mid hundred teens.

 

Accuracy-wise...opinions differ. Just like shooting a 69 grain bullet in a barrel with a 1-12 twist, some things just don't go together. a Weatherby-ruger-Remington-etc in .223... that's what you should shoot. But 5.56 isn't going to blow anything up. You might not experience the best accuracy, either. Find what shoots in YOUR rifle, use that.

 

I'm partial to .223 Wylde chambers and 1-9 twists. I am also partial to Bushmasters, Colt, DPMS, S&W and Springfield. But I like building them better. From stripped everything. Now that that is no longer my "profession" I can enjoy my hobby once again. PSA, Anderson, CMMG, Spike's and a few others, lots out there to choose from. Generally speaking, quality isn't cheap. You can have it cheap or "right" but not always both.

God Bless

[Dantankerous]

Now Abilene Slim...

 

Go getya an AK 47.

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

47 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Now Abilene Slim...

 

Go getya an AK 47.

 

Gonna shoot one tomorrow!

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I found the SKS to be more accurate than the AK47 

 

  CB 

[Pb Mark]

Along with that AK-47, you will need two pistols and some nice holsters to go with.

[Pat Riot]

58 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

Along with that AK-47, you will need two pistols and some nice holsters to go with.

And a Saiga magazine fed 12 gauge. 

[Pat Riot]

3 hours ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

I found the SKS to be more accurate than the AK47 

 

  CB 

I agree. I had a Chinese Norinco SKS that was very accurate. 1 MOA accurate with decent ammo. With Russian military ammo it was still pretty impressive. A friend of mine’s teenage son could outshoot me with it. We would have these impromptu shooting contests. My friend would joke with me about Howe his son beats me with my own gun every time. When his birthday came around I gave him my SKS and a case of ammo and a bunch of stripper clips. The kid was elated. 

He deserved that gun. 
 

Regarding AK47s. Shooting those I could understand how really tall people must feel trying to shoot regular sized guns. I have always felt they were designed to that European Standard of average sized males at 140 pounds and 5’ 7” tall. 

[WOLFY]

I should’ve never sold my first AR.  It was so old it didn’t have a fwd asst.  I only recently did a PSA build to kinda replicate that pre-A1 CAR.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

12 hours ago, Dubious Don #56333 said:

Mirrors my own experience. 5.56 in a .223 chamber isn't going to blow it up.

That's a lot of what info  I've found, also (the primer bit -- I've never owned anything .223 so the cartridge-swap  bit, not so much).

 

Even going back to John's article (.223 vs 5.56 Explained in Plain English) and looking at the picture -- there's nothing in the article that says the rifle shown was blown up by running 5.56 in a .223 chamber. It only implies it. Even the caption, "It may not blow up this bad, but man…this is BAD." avoids making the point that the damage in picture is a result of the error. 

 

Maybe it's just a function of my cynicism regarding the state of modern journalism, or maybe the author really did just find a stock picture of a blown-out AR to beef up his doom-saying. Whichever, the biggest thing that's missing from the 'no 5.56 in .223 chambers' admonition is the self-reporting of common shooters who have made the mistake.

 

Go to any firearms thread for a while, and you find someone who self-reports a mishap out of consideration for their fellow shooters, The post is usually complete with pictures and an explanation of how they blew up their gun or punched holes in their blood-air barrier, or initiated a small-scale home improvement project. But I've never seen any such reporting associated with 5.56 in a .223 chamber. Admittedly, while I am subscribed to a couple of AR threads, I spend little time there. But believe it or not, AR talk does find its way onto non-AR forums  . . . .