What kind of lead bullet does this?

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

A shooter was stopped this weekend as his lead ammunition was damaging the steel. I have no other information as this was on another posse. 
I have never seen lead cause this kind of damage. 

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

Was his MV in the neighborhood of 8,000 fps? 

[Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438]

Depleted uranium rounds?  

 

LL

[Warden Callaway]

Years ago I was shooting long range handgun silhouette. At 200 yard rams, I used 35 Remington in 14" Thompson Contender.  I shot 180 bullet cast from linortype. It was the only gun and load in the game that would reliably take down the rams.  They made me quit shooting that load because it was making craters in the non AR500 targets.  Went to 150 grain jacketed flat points. They exploded on contact.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

Military surplus green tip.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

In all my years of shooting Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette and Cowboy Action I have Never seen a lead bullet do that to steel targets.  Did they check his ammo to make sure they were indeed lead?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

High velocity cast-bullet RIFLE loads can do that to mild steel targets, starting at about 1800 FPS or more.  From my experience shooting .30-06 loaded with hard cast bullets.   Otherwise, it takes a strong-jacket jacketed slug to even start doing that at 1000 FPS. 

 

From all the OLD dings and pocks on the targets, I'd guess those are indeed mild steel.

 

It was appropriate to stop him using that ammo, from what I can tell from a couple of pictures alone.   GJ

[Warden Callaway]

We had a new guy show up with high performance jacketed hollow points. Uhaa no.  Another guy that wasn't exactly new,  showed up with 00 buckshot loads.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Not lead......

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

It looks like the target is made of mild steel.  There are already too many pot marks created by previous shooters.  IMO.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said

[Sedalia Dave]

Very hard cast lead bullets will do that to mild steel. Bullets cast from Linotype, Electrotype or Monotype will easily damage mild steel. 

 

I have a bunch of SASS legal commercially loaded 44-40  black powder ammo that was loaded with extremely hard 200 gr cast lead bullets.  At 5 yards they will easily leave dents in mild steel when fired from a 24" barrel. 

 

I now only shoot them at NCOWS matches as the rifle targets are out at 35+ yards.

[Gungadin]

Probably plain carbon steel targets to start.  say 18-20 carbon like 1020 steel or likely ASTM A36.

 

There is some suggestion that lead does not mean pure lead and you can have a wide range of lead alloys.  Grandad was a printer and I remember the old Linotype machine.  It melted bars of lead in the back and you typed on a keyboard and lead type came out the front.  This 'Lead' was only 84% lead the rest was hardener (tin Antimony) to the type didn't wear too quickly.  That would give bad quality printing.  The good cowboy bullet makers have a hardness they want to reduce lead fouling.  I suspect the alloys cost more than lead so they don't want to get too hard.

 

So my conclusion would be any/all of the following: 

1. Plain Carbon Steel Target
2. Harder lead alloy
3. Energy turns to heat.  You know energy is related to mass and velocity so heavy bullets going fast create significant heat when they his a target.  That heat energy does damage to plain carbon steel targets.

Think about depleted uranium going thru armored vehicles.  The energy melts the armor.  Energy has to go somewhere and the target doesn't dissipate the energy quickly enough and none is absorbed by the very hard depleted uranium.   Physics.   I suspect a harder bullet means less energy used to deform the bullet and more by the target.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Hope they pony up some cash to buy some new targets. 

 

This kind of thing really upsets me as it cost the club. 

[Assassin]

That doesn't look like lead bullets did all that damage.

Maybe steel core, old military

stuff. Those targets aren't great, too soft for club events. Although, they're fine for home practice. I have an old set of mild steel targets that Dustin Linebaugh dimpled with some hot 44 mag lead bullets, his family doesn't believe in light loads, he didn't pierce the targets like the bullets in the picture.

 

[Michigan Slim]

Cheap steel on those targets plus a hot load plus hard alloy. I've thrown away targets that I did that to on my private range. 

["Big Boston"]

15 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said:

Cheap steel on those targets plus a hot load plus hard alloy. I've thrown away targets that I did that to on my private range. 

 

Same. I no longer make any of my own steel targets from mild steel. I have a few scraps of Hardox 450 wear plate with a hardness (HBW) or 390 - 475. It stands up rather well, but eventually it does bend. On one of my first meets I was bending some of the targets with my 44-40 handloads in a rifle. The bullets weren't particularly hard, I'd guess 14, but the velocity was probably 1300 fps, still legal in my rifle. I hit the bonus point whiskey bottle in the center a bit to the right and put at 20º bend in it. 

 

The dents in the picture look a bit odd, almost like penetration. Lyman does make a mold for a penetrator cast bullet, to be cast of lino, but I can't imagine anyone using it for shooting cowboy, certainly not in a rifle. 

 

BB

[Captain Bill Burt]

Good thing nobody was injured.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

It appears those targets were already heavily damaged and had reached the end of their life long before this encounter. They look like a moonscape. Time to start replacing. 

[Frontier Lone Rider]

This was a new shooter who had purchased the bullets from a local vendor.  No one knew what the hardness was or the velocity of the round, but they did a job on the targets.

 

A pard from another posse, thanks Hooligan, gave the young folks the correct ammo so they could finish the day.

[Hoss]

We had a shooter that shot pretty hot 45 Colt loads. We told him to lighten the load. Next match he came told me he had loaded up a bunch of 45 Colt with 4.5 bullseye. (Sounded about right). He proceeded to knock targets down, and pockmarked a few like that. We told him ammo was too hot. He kept insisting it was 4.5 bulleye. He finished the match with my guns and ammo. A Pard filched a couple of rounds, broke them down. They had 14.5 bullseye!!!! Apparently the shooter had the “10” poise set incorrectly!  How he didn’t blow up a gun I dont know. We told him of the problem, and that he should break them all down. He said “I’ll just save them for hog loads” 

[Captain Bill Burt]

26 minutes ago, Hoss said:

We had a shooter that shot pretty hot 45 Colt loads. We told him to lighten the load. Next match he came told me he had loaded up a bunch of 45 Colt with 4.5 bullseye. (Sounded about right). He proceeded to knock targets down, and pockmarked a few like that. We told him ammo was too hot. He kept insisting it was 4.5 bulleye. He finished the match with my guns and ammo. A Pard filched a couple of rounds, broke them down. They had 14.5 bullseye!!!! Apparently the shooter had the “10” poise set incorrectly!  How he didn’t blow up a gun I dont know. We told him of the problem, and that he should break them all down. He said “I’ll just save them for hog loads” 

Some folks shouldn't be shooting.  I don't mind if Darwin rears his head, but I don't want to be a part of the fallout.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Some folks shouldn't be shooting. 

 

One pard pulled that almost every cowboy match he attended, and damaged at least one gun a month from hot and dangerously inconsistent reloads.  He no longer has access to any club in the area.

 

Safety has to be the #1 concern in our game.  There is no higher goal, not even winning World Champion buckles.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sarge]

I have seen that damage with cast lead bullets on mild steel targets.  The shooter had recently changed powder and not researched the proper load with the new powder. The result was some very hot loads.  

[Three Gun Cole]

JBC,

 

I think it Looks like factory 230 grain lead in a 44 mag rifle.   Seen it before...

[Tennessee williams]

I tried a different bullet makers cast bullet with the same powder charge and the same weight used for years. I popped a nice hole in a couple of my mild steel cowboy targets. I don't use those anymore. 

[The Surgeon]

Could of been ammo from buffalo bore they load some pretty hot lead loads in some calibers. 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:42 PM, The Surgeon said:

Could of been ammo from buffalo bore they load some pretty hot lead loads in some calibers. 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:42 PM, The Surgeon said:

Could of been ammo from buffalo bore they load some pretty hot lead loads in some calibers. 

At $40-$60 per 20 rounds I’d hate to shoot a full match with those

[Kid Rich]

First problem Mild steel, second cause would hot load, third would/could be hard cast.  A hot load with 20 hardness lead WILL cause dimpling of targets. Then you have the MD's that like to set their targets close enough that you can spit on them. kR

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

First problem Mild steel, second cause would hot load, third would/could be hard cast.  A hot load with 20 hardness lead WILL cause dimpling of targets. Then you have the MD's that like to set their targets close enough that you can spit on them. kR

Do you think an extra yard or two either way makes a significant difference? But another way, how much velocity does a 125 grain bullet with 1,000 fps muzzle velocity lose from the 5 yard mark to the 8 yard mark? I suspect not much.

[Still hand Bill]

Sub sonic loads lose velocity slowly.  You might drop 100fps in the first 100 yards.  3 yards won’t change velocity much if any.  

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

Sub sonic loads lose velocity slowly.  You might drop 100fps in the first 100 yards.  3 yards won’t change velocity much if any.  

I don't own a chronograph, so it's rare for me to check my velocities.  I suspected as much.  Just my opinion, but I think bullet hardness, target hardness and velocity have a lot more to do with that kind of damage than target distance does.

[Still hand Bill]

2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't own a chronograph, so it's rare for me to check my velocities.  I suspected as much.  Just my opinion, but I think bullet hardness, target hardness and velocity have a lot more to do with that kind of damage than target distance does.

I recently got a lab radar and have been developing hunting loads.  You can calculate bc based on radar data as it can be set up to return speeds every 25 yards out to 100.  Interesting to see how fast some sonic bullets shed velocity and how slowly sub sonics do.  A low bc sonic bullet may shed 1000fps in 100 yard.   Never had given it much thought until I was looking at different bullets and noticed the difference in down range speeds.  Opened my eyes for hunting.  

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

I recently got a lab radar and have been developing hunting loads.  You can calculate bc based on radar data as it can be set up to return speeds every 25 yards out to 100.  Interesting to see how fast some sonic bullets shed velocity and how slowly sub sonics do.  A low bc sonic bullet may shed 1000fps in 100 yard.   Never had given it much thought until I was looking at different bullets and noticed the difference in down range speeds.  Opened my eyes for hunting.  

So if we assumed that's linear, which is probably isn't, we get about 100 fps drop off every 10 yards, so three yards would be a drop off of approximately 33 fps. 

 

I suspect it's actually an accelerating curve, sort of like the speed at which something falls, but in reverse, with the drop off accelerating as a function of time.