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irish ike, SASS #43615

WTC, sort of interpretation of Firearm Conventions

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At our shoot this weekend we had a stage that required 9 rifle and 9 pistol. No reloads and the targets were to be shot in a continuous Nevada sweep.

We had a posse marshal and a Black Badge instructor say the 9 rounds of pistol violated the Firearm Conventions for pistols.

 

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The MD and other PM's said the convention was to insure not overloading, as in 6 rounds, a pistol. We shot the stage with 9 rounds.

Let's not get into a , "why would anyone ever call for 9 pistol rounds", discussion

Ike

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I read that as prohibiting the loading of 6 rounds at the loading table.

As opposed to:
"ALWAYS load 5 rounds into the revolver"

--Dawg

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"unless otherwise directed by stage design/description"

 

Sounds like the stage instructions dictated 9 in the pistol.

 

Stage conventions happen "unless" overridden by instructions. No different than the instructions stating that shooter must set pistols on table after firing. The convention was overridden by stage instructions.

 

Safety convention, hammer must be down on empty, cannot be overridden.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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Sounds like the Black Badge PIN Instructor could benefit from a refresher course (or, at least, a more thorough study of the SHB)

<_<

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@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495LI will admit, that if we are to take a hard interpretation of the safety convention - and insist that the entire convention must be followed and not overridden...

 

Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber.

 

The use of only implies that six-gun revolvers may only load five rounds exclusively - and nothing else besides.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495LI will admit, that if we are to take a hard interpretation of the safety convention - and insist that the entire convention must be followed and not overridden...

 

Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber.

 

The use of only implies that six-gun revolvers may only load five rounds exclusively - and nothing else besides.

 

"Hard interpretations" without an application of common sense based on the reason for the convention (i.e. preventing movement with a live round under the hammer) are why the exception was written into the "preamble" of that section.

The provision to override a convention via stage instructions applies as long as the action required is safe.

The original list of Stage Conventions contained a few items that could NOT be safely overridden...those were subsequently removed.

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Just to add to the discussion that took place. We also approached it with, as long as it doesn't impact or compromise SASS safety conventions then it should be OK. We instructed the PM's and the posse's that shooters could not load 6 and 3 just in case.

 

Branchwater, the discussion did approach it as you present it. But we determined it didn't impact safety so OK.

 

And very few tried to shoot a non existing 10th round.

Ike

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sounds like the Black Badge PIN Instructor could benefit from a refresher course (or, at least, a more thorough study of the SHB)

<_<

Unfortunately I've delt with two black pins lately that need a refresher. I was lucky enough to talk with lassiter and flying shootist and get a few things straightened out at Illinois st.

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All of us are products of our environment.

I live in a world where everything supposed be done as printed in the manual.  Funny part is after reviewing the 6 pages in the manual and associated placards, on the proper use of the toilet on one of the A/C I fly no place in the manual does it say you should flush the toilet when you get done with your business..  ;)

Common Sense is an integral part of interpreting the rules.  Having to make the call on the spot and an the heat of battle no matter who you are is difficult, misinterpretations do happen and usually because of a disconnect between reading what is in black and white in the book, and what the “Intent” of the written word is as published.

On my first reading and reflection of the initial post, I agreed that the printed word says clearly that six-guns are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and down on an empty chamber, then further reflection (Common Sense) takes me to, less than 5 rounds is not stated, in the manual, but does not present an unsafe condition thus should be permissible.  Maybe the verbiage should read “not more than five rounds” I don’t know there and that is a decision above my pay grade.

At the end of the day the manual is quite good, not perfect, but the best we have, in conveying the “Intent” of the rules of the game.  Just because one makes a call in the heat of battle that later upon further consideration, might not have been the “Best/Correct” answer, Common Sense, also does not lead to the need to question the competency of the individuals making the call.  It should be used as an opportunity to educate all parties.

F.S.

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I don't know why someone would write a stage with 5 rds in one pistol and 4 in the other??

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 Because it’s fun. Sometimes you have to do things differently than the same old 10 pistol 20 rifle 2+ shotgun. very simple very easy just use common sense five in your first pistol four  in your second pistol count to nine simple math. we should all be able to do it. Oh yeah Phantom you don’t need to chime in I took care of it. Ha Ha. 

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1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

@irish ike, SASS #43615

Just wondering how many of the posse had to ask how to load those four rounds? :ph34r:

 

I know I didn't ask, I used common sense.

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You should hear them scream and brains screech when you write a stage all the guns staged empty!

 

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I as well utilized a little bit of common sense and got through the stage just fine as did the rest of the posse I was shooting with. Matter of fact I shot clean for the match. 

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Why 9 pistol rounds? Because the sport has become a 10-10-4 every stage shoot. When you write a stage with something different than that you can just see the vacuum tubes light up in posse's heads! The other half of this is the match was a Tom Horn match. You can shoot regular cowboy, yawn stages. Or you can shoot 12 stages of big bore single shot or lever action rifle. BP or smokeless. So take that 10-10-4. Half of our shooters signed up for the big bore side of the shoot.

Ike

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I have shot many 9 shot, 9 with a reload stages. No issues.

 

I have never heard a complaint at the three ranges I shoot at when things get out-of-the-ordinary. They seem to go out of their way to be out of the ordinary.

Must be a Kentucky thing...

 

Everyone seems to derive great pleasure after shooting a total train wreck!

 

 

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