WTC, sort of interpretation of Firearm Conventions

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

At our shoot this weekend we had a stage that required 9 rifle and 9 pistol. No reloads and the targets were to be shot in a continuous Nevada sweep.

We had a posse marshal and a Black Badge instructor say the 9 rounds of pistol violated the Firearm Conventions for pistols.

 

The MD and other PM's said the convention was to insure not overloading, as in 6 rounds, a pistol. We shot the stage with 9 rounds.

Let's not get into a , "why would anyone ever call for 9 pistol rounds", discussion

Ike

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

I read that as prohibiting the loading of 6 rounds at the loading table.

As opposed to:
"ALWAYS load 5 rounds into the revolver"

--Dawg

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

"unless otherwise directed by stage design/description"

 

Sounds like the stage instructions dictated 9 in the pistol.

 

Stage conventions happen "unless" overridden by instructions. No different than the instructions stating that shooter must set pistols on table after firing. The convention was overridden by stage instructions.

 

Safety convention, hammer must be down on empty, cannot be overridden.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Sounds like the Black Badge PIN Instructor could benefit from a refresher course (or, at least, a more thorough study of the SHB)

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495LI will admit, that if we are to take a hard interpretation of the safety convention - and insist that the entire convention must be followed and not overridden...

 

Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber.

 

The use of only implies that six-gun revolvers may only load five rounds exclusively - and nothing else besides.

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Because it would be unsafe to only load 4 rounds in a revolver.

Really?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

How many folks went click, bang on the short-loaded gun?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

9 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495LI will admit, that if we are to take a hard interpretation of the safety convention - and insist that the entire convention must be followed and not overridden...

 

Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber.

 

The use of only implies that six-gun revolvers may only load five rounds exclusively - and nothing else besides.

 

"Hard interpretations" without an application of common sense based on the reason for the convention (i.e. preventing movement with a live round under the hammer) are why the exception was written into the "preamble" of that section.

The provision to override a convention via stage instructions applies as long as the action required is safe.

The original list of Stage Conventions contained a few items that could NOT be safely overridden...those were subsequently removed.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Just to add to the discussion that took place. We also approached it with, as long as it doesn't impact or compromise SASS safety conventions then it should be OK. We instructed the PM's and the posse's that shooters could not load 6 and 3 just in case.

 

Branchwater, the discussion did approach it as you present it. But we determined it didn't impact safety so OK.

 

And very few tried to shoot a non existing 10th round.

Ike

[evil dogooder]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Sounds like the Black Badge PIN Instructor could benefit from a refresher course (or, at least, a more thorough study of the SHB)

Unfortunately I've delt with two black pins lately that need a refresher. I was lucky enough to talk with lassiter and flying shootist and get a few things straightened out at Illinois st.

[Flyin Shootest]

All of us are products of our environment.

I live in a world where everything supposed be done as printed in the manual.  Funny part is after reviewing the 6 pages in the manual and associated placards, on the proper use of the toilet on one of the A/C I fly no place in the manual does it say you should flush the toilet when you get done with your business.. 

Common Sense is an integral part of interpreting the rules.  Having to make the call on the spot and an the heat of battle no matter who you are is difficult, misinterpretations do happen and usually because of a disconnect between reading what is in black and white in the book, and what the “Intent” of the written word is as published.

On my first reading and reflection of the initial post, I agreed that the printed word says clearly that six-guns are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and down on an empty chamber, then further reflection (Common Sense) takes me to, less than 5 rounds is not stated, in the manual, but does not present an unsafe condition thus should be permissible.  Maybe the verbiage should read “not more than five rounds” I don’t know there and that is a decision above my pay grade.

At the end of the day the manual is quite good, not perfect, but the best we have, in conveying the “Intent” of the rules of the game.  Just because one makes a call in the heat of battle that later upon further consideration, might not have been the “Best/Correct” answer, Common Sense, also does not lead to the need to question the competency of the individuals making the call.  It should be used as an opportunity to educate all parties.

F.S.

[COLORADO JACKSON]

I don't know why someone would write a stage with 5 rds in one pistol and 4 in the other??

[oak creek martin]

 Because it’s fun. Sometimes you have to do things differently than the same old 10 pistol 20 rifle 2+ shotgun. very simple very easy just use common sense five in your first pistol four  in your second pistol count to nine simple math. we should all be able to do it. Oh yeah Phantom you don’t need to chime in I took care of it. Ha Ha. 

[Equanimous Phil]

@irish ike, SASS #43615

Just wondering how many of the posse had to ask how to load those four rounds? 

[Johnny Reno]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

@irish ike, SASS #43615

Just wondering how many of the posse had to ask how to load those four rounds? 

 

I know I didn't ask, I used common sense.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

You should hear them scream and brains screech when you write a stage all the guns staged empty!

 

[Flanigan Flats]

I as well utilized a little bit of common sense and got through the stage just fine as did the rest of the posse I was shooting with. Matter of fact I shot clean for the match. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Why 9 pistol rounds? Because the sport has become a 10-10-4 every stage shoot. When you write a stage with something different than that you can just see the vacuum tubes light up in posse's heads! The other half of this is the match was a Tom Horn match. You can shoot regular cowboy, yawn stages. Or you can shoot 12 stages of big bore single shot or lever action rifle. BP or smokeless. So take that 10-10-4. Half of our shooters signed up for the big bore side of the shoot.

Ike

[Blast Masterson]

I have shot many 9 shot, 9 with a reload stages. No issues.

 

I have never heard a complaint at the three ranges I shoot at when things get out-of-the-ordinary. They seem to go out of their way to be out of the ordinary.

Must be a Kentucky thing...

 

Everyone seems to derive great pleasure after shooting a total train wreck!

 

 

[The Outlaw Travis James]

On 9/17/2019 at 11:05 AM, Blast Masterson said:

I have shot many 9 shot, 9 with a reload stages. No issues.

 

I have never heard a complaint at the three ranges I shoot at when things get out-of-the-ordinary. They seem to go out of their way to be out of the ordinary.

Must be a Kentucky thing...

 

Everyone seems to derive great pleasure after shooting a total train wreck!

 

 

It sounds like I need to come and shoot in Kentucky then!  I love out of the ordinary! 

The OTJ

[Smoken D]

Our rule was, If it's safe, it's shootable. Have shoot several 9 pistol shot stages but been a while. Also 12 rifle 11 pistol where you reload on the clock. Oh My!

[Assassin]

This is a non-issue. Pistols are loaded with a max of 5 rounds, nothing states one must load 5.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Okay....

 

Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber.

 

On my left hip I have an 1860 Colt, Konverted to shoot cartridges.   It has a five shot cylinder.   Therefore, it is a "Five-gun."

On my right hip is a Nagant, it has a 7 shot cylinder.  Therefore it is a "Seven-gun."

 

Therefore, I should be allowed to load 4 in the Colt, and 6 in the Nagant.  Both revolvers will have the hammer down on an empty chamber.   This allows me to safely have the needed 10 rounds in a typical stage.
 

I've seen more than a few 9 shot pistol strings over the years, and the question of it being against the conventions has never been brought up.  Usually the nine shots are done to mirror a 9 shot rifle string, most commonly where you have three targets with three rounds on each in whatever order.   [But not always".]

 

Come on folks, let's not get silly here...

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Therefore, I should be allowed to load 4 in the Colt, and 6 in the Nagant.  Both revolvers will have the hammer down on an empty chamber.   This allows me to safely have the needed 10 rounds in a typical stage.

If you do you should let the TO & the rest of the posse know,  else you're gonna hear a lot of "one more" being yelled when you shoot that colt.

Note: I'm NOT saying it's legal to load like this.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

If you do you should let the TO & the rest of the posse know,  else you're gonna hear a lot of "one more" being yelled when you shoot that colt.

Note: I'm NOT saying it's legal to load like this.

 

 I am pretty sure it's specifically not allowed.   I was giving this as an example of a taking something to a ridiculous extreme. 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

you really don't need to mess with round count to make the game interesting,,, I went to a regional once that had only 5 revolver rounds and you couldn't  split them for gf,  and only 9 rifle on that stage, 4 sg, and nothing else,,, told them I'd never be back, and haven't!

 

you want interesting? try rifle, sg p sg p sg,,,,   doesn't matter the target sequence,,,  

[Cat Brules]

It appears to me that the Firearms Convention for handguns (noted elsewhere, above), should be revised.

 

Its current iteration lends itself to a few questions that should not have to be interpreted, perhaps differently, by individual clubs’ TO’s or posse leaders under match conditions, at local club matches.

 

Someone make a note to review, please.

 

Cat Brules

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

It is impossible to write an IDIOT PROOF instruction.  Revising the Firearms Convention would accomplish ZERO.  Someone would still demonstrate they are basically STUPID and you cannot fix STUPID.  There is a simple requirement for Common Sense.

[Cat Brules]

4 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

It is impossible to write an IDIOT PROOF instruction.  Revising the Firearms Convention would accomplish ZERO.  Someone would still demonstrate they are basically STUPID and you cannot fix STUPID.  There is a simple requirement for Common Sense.

 

CC:

Well, you have your opinion and I have mine.  You are wrong.  One of my (many) opinions is that revisiting the handgun/ammo convention (above) is SIMPLE.....EASY....NOT DIFFICULT.   Further to your point, I haven’t met any real idiots or stupid cowboys shooting CAS;  I’ve met a lot of nice people.  But, I ALSO have met more than a few spring-loaded a&%#@$#$ along the way.  But then, you know (right?) what they say about opinions?  

— “Opinions are like noses; everybody has one.”

 

Another of my (many) opinions is that..... if proper thought and attention had been given to writing SASS rules and conventions going in, and then later, properly and routinely reviewed in earlier days, much or most of this sometimes confusing or incomplete language, as above, would have been fixed a long time ago....(easy for ME to say). So now it’s been highlighted and should be reviewed and fixed....because it IS broken.....in my opinion, of course.

 

HAND,

Cat Brules

 

 

 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

4 rounds in one pistol? Big deal!! Not a safety problem and it's something a little different

[Eliphalet R. Moderator]

Any revisions to rules or conventions have to be voted on by the Territorial Governors.  The ROC can propose changes, as in the "cocked hammer from the loading table", but do not just change rules on their own.   They can rule on interpretations.  Coming out with a new version of the Handbook every time someone thinks that wording should be changed would result in a never-ending stream of "updates", sort of like the ever-present "Windows updates".   

 

We are currently using SHB Vers 23.2, just to show you how many revisions the Handbook has gone through.  For 2020 there will be a new version, and as always, there will be some updates to the wording, and clarifications.  But, they are trying to keep the Handbook manageable, and not publish and Encyclopedia version. 

 

Please remember that the members of the ROC are volunteers, and as all of us, have real lives, jobs, and families.  They've been doing a great job, doing the best they can while balancing work/life, and other "real world" stuff.  So, give them a break instead of demanding immediate fixes. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

2 hours ago, Eliphalet R. Moderator said:

Any revisions to rules or conventions have to be voted on by the Territorial Governors.  The ROC can propose changes, as in the "cocked hammer from the loading table", but do not just change rules on their own.   They can rule on interpretations.  Coming out with a new version of the Handbook every time someone thinks that wording should be changed would result in a never-ending stream of "updates", sort of like the ever-present "Windows updates".   

 

We are currently using SHB Vers 23.2, just to show you how many revisions the Handbook has gone through.  For 2020 there will be a new version, and as always, there will be some updates to the wording, and clarifications.  But, they are trying to keep the Handbook manageable, and not publish and Encyclopedia version. 

 

Please remember that the members of the ROC are volunteers, and as all of us, have real lives, jobs, and families.  They've been doing a great job, doing the best they can while balancing work/life, and other "real world" stuff.  So, give them a break instead of demanding immediate fixes. 

+1  people have NOOOOO idea the amount of time the ROC has spent in the past, present and will in the future trying to keep things simple,,,yet try to cover almost every situation possible,,,  it gets old hearing whiners crying over things that are so simplistic and or only come into question every 20 years or so

 

and you have NO idea of the heated discussions that go on in the ROC too,  but once it's settled it's done and everyone goes back to playing cowboy again

 

flame away,,, I've got more!!

[Griff]

After writing a diatribe about the vagaries of interpretations... I am probably wasting my time... so... no comment.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

25 minutes ago, Griff said:

vagaries

I learned a new word today. Thank you!