Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Another Interpretation question


irish ike, SASS #43615

Recommended Posts

Stage instructions say, 'start position at position 1 with shotgun in hand'. I'm the TO, the shooter gets ready and he is holding the shotgun with "one" hand and the other is on his shotgun rounds. I call him on it and say in hand means, 'both hands touching the shotgun in some way'. He says its written singularly and doesn't mean both hands. I respond with SASS has been using 'in hand' to mean both hands. It refuses and I let him shoot. After he shoots I go to him and get into a grammar discussion with him. I ask if it says start with rifle in hand does that mean you only have to have one hand on the rifle. He thinks and says no as you don't need to load any ammo. 

I couldn't find anything int eh shooters handbook. What says the wire?

Ike

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 109
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I take it to mean both hands on shotgun.

P.S. I have been wrong before.

 

Irish Tom

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see the rule book getting another page thicker!

Link to post
Share on other sites

The implied intent is in both hands. The reality is shooters will push the grammar to exact letter of the word. So the stage writer writes his / her intent. If it doesn’t matter write,  Shooter starts with shotgun in hand. If the instructions are different then write it. Shooter starts shotgun held at port arms for example, or held at Cowboy Port Arms. Not really that much harder to put the exact instructions in. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not have allowed him/her to start that way and got the MD involved if necessary.  I check wherever I shoot if the palms have to be on the long gun or is the back of the hand OK.  I'm fine with either, but I want to be consistent.  Hands on shells is a no no unless it is specified in the stage instructions and everybody can do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't we just have some fun and get along?

 

" Shooter starts shotgun held at port arms for example, or held at Cowboy Port Arms. Not really that much harder to put the exact instructions in.  "

Agreed.

 

Shotgun in hand is not always port arms.

Shotgun in hand could be at the shoulder.

 

Ammunition was in belt, not in hand. Hands on shells, not in hand.

 

Why not clarify the first time someone try's to start that way? Who pushed the start button?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ike,

 

I don't find any rules prohibiting what the shooter did. I've always thought "hands" was plural and "hand" singular.  According to your post, the scenario said "hand." Hands on shells, which are still in the belt,  is not the same as "Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s)."

 

I've been wrong before; but, that is the way I read it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Link to post
Share on other sites

Disagreements like this are a byproduct of juxtaposing rules "as written" with rules "as intended".  Folks with years of experience and a lot of interactions with a diverse crew of shooters likely have a good grasp of the intent, but that personal knowledge doesn't transfer to the worldwide shooters.

 

If it matters, then it should be worth specifying, if only to establish precedent as the "correct" way to write instructions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

His other hand as per stage conventions can not be touching his shells. The instructions say what they say and should be executed as written. When we start judging intent, things get sloppy and some posses will shoot the stage differently than others were allowed to. It’s not that difficult to write “hands” if that’s what you want them to do. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Now I gotta put an "s" after "hand"...

I'm not sure that would actually clear anything up.  Perhaps just a description of what "in hand" means in the context of SASS...as folks might come into the sport with preconceptions of what it means, and I'm not seeing it in the Shooters Handbook.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You must have a pretty quiet posse. Usually when the TO reads the instructions, someone will ask,  one or two hands,  and will be told,  "  Standing with shotgun in hand. This means both hands. Not holding it with one hand with the other one grabbing shells." or " Shotgun in hand. Yes, you can have the other one on shells, but they cannot be pulled before the beep. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

His other hand as per stage conventions can not be touching his shells.

 

3 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 Yes, you can have the other one on shells, but they cannot be pulled before the beep. 

 

Case in point.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Knifehand Joe said:

 

 

Case in point.

Case in point that not everyone has a complete understanding of the rules.

 

Case in point that not everyone thoroughly reads the manuals.

 

Case in point that this stuff is driving me NUTS!!!!

 

Phantom

Link to post
Share on other sites

Phantom, I agree with your first two points, and will take your word for it on your third one. (grinning)

 

Some wording changes could make things clearer to newer shooters; I would gladly volunteer some sweat equity and three years experience as an Army technical writer o accomplish any revisions that a group of experienced shooters could confirm as the intentions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I write a stage and don't care how the shooter holds the gun I will say in hand(s). The shooter gets to choose. I also don't care in that case if they choose to be aiming the gun at the target. If your club has stage standards that is fine as long as everyone is informed.

 

At my club shooters aren't hesitant to ask for clarification.

 

SR

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

o At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once. 

...

o Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time. 

 

SHB pp.6-7

 

For those taking the position that "in hand" only refers to ONE hand, there is precedent in the above cited rules regarding the term being applied in the commonly accepted plural...otherwise the penalty for violation would only apply when BOTH loaded revolvers were held in ONE hand at the same time.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I've seen this starting position used, the instructions state "in both hands" and most folks put the back of their hand on the forend so they can go straight down to their shells. It seems the solution is to clarify the instructions.

I'm all for folks getting creative, even if it can be annoying sometimes. We don't want to stifle creativity -- or be ambiguous with stage instructions -- in a game where we are trying to recruit new (and younger) shooters.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"In hand" means whatever the Match Director says it means.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

Safety & Handling Conventions – Shotguns

- Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands

 

SHB p.15

 

Does this mean that anytime the shotgun isn't "staged" that the shooter is allowed to start with it loaded w/action closed & cocked...shouldered & pointed at the first target?

...if there are no specific stage instructions stating otherwise?

(e.g. "open & empty shotgun held in both hands")

??

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 I think we are trying to recruit  honest shooters who have a love for the spirit of the game,and not those who are always looking for ways around the rules.  :blink:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarification, PaleWolf. 

 

I was thinking the shooter could hold the gun in one hand.

 

I believe the prohibition against holding/touching ammunition is is quite clear.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always figured that if the TO told me I was doing something incorrectly with regards to my "starting position" that I should simply defer to his instructions.  After all, that's part of the reason why he is there.

 

Heck, I've been known to ask, "Where am I supposed to put my hands again for this one?"

Link to post
Share on other sites

oy!!!!!!!    I once didn't understand the  TO telling me my hands cudn't be on my revolvers,,,  I got the P,,,

 

in this case I would have simply told the shooter fine,,, but he'd get the P if he did it that way,, period,,,   before the beep,,,,  then if he wanted to protest he cud afterwards,,,

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is in charge of the stage/firing line?!  Did all of the previous shooters start with the SG in hands?  The shooter disregarded the TOs instructions and should have been penalized.  

The book also states that the TO shall not start a shooter in a faulted position.  If the shooter doesn't want to comply,  send them to the unloading table. 

And yes, it's hard ass Wednesday. 

 

Barry Sloe

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.