irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Stage instructions say, 'start position at position 1 with shotgun in hand'. I'm the TO, the shooter gets ready and he is holding the shotgun with "one" hand and the other is on his shotgun rounds. I call him on it and say in hand means, 'both hands touching the shotgun in some way'. He says its written singularly and doesn't mean both hands. I respond with SASS has been using 'in hand' to mean both hands. It refuses and I let him shoot. After he shoots I go to him and get into a grammar discussion with him. I ask if it says start with rifle in hand does that mean you only have to have one hand on the rifle. He thinks and says no as you don't need to load any ammo. I couldn't find anything int eh shooters handbook. What says the wire? Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I take it to mean both hands on shotgun. P.S. I have been wrong before. Irish Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 You were right, he was wrong. He was also being arrogant about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 I can see the rule book getting another page thicker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 He has a point.. Singular.. In hand. I can't say I agree with his point Rance Just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Hit him with a SOG . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 The implied intent is in both hands. The reality is shooters will push the grammar to exact letter of the word. So the stage writer writes his / her intent. If it doesn’t matter write, Shooter starts with shotgun in hand. If the instructions are different then write it. Shooter starts shotgun held at port arms for example, or held at Cowboy Port Arms. Not really that much harder to put the exact instructions in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Noon Henry Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Shooters Handbook page 31: Ammunition Conventions - Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s). HMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I would not have allowed him/her to start that way and got the MD involved if necessary. I check wherever I shoot if the palms have to be on the long gun or is the back of the hand OK. I'm fine with either, but I want to be consistent. Hands on shells is a no no unless it is specified in the stage instructions and everybody can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blast Masterson Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Can't we just have some fun and get along? " Shooter starts shotgun held at port arms for example, or held at Cowboy Port Arms. Not really that much harder to put the exact instructions in. " Agreed. Shotgun in hand is not always port arms. Shotgun in hand could be at the shoulder. Ammunition was in belt, not in hand. Hands on shells, not in hand. Why not clarify the first time someone try's to start that way? Who pushed the start button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Hi Ike, I don't find any rules prohibiting what the shooter did. I've always thought "hands" was plural and "hand" singular. According to your post, the scenario said "hand." Hands on shells, which are still in the belt, is not the same as "Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand(s)." I've been wrong before; but, that is the way I read it. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I agree with Allie. But this also opens up a very old can of worms. “If it’s not expressly prohibited then it must be allowed”, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifehand Joe Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Disagreements like this are a byproduct of juxtaposing rules "as written" with rules "as intended". Folks with years of experience and a lot of interactions with a diverse crew of shooters likely have a good grasp of the intent, but that personal knowledge doesn't transfer to the worldwide shooters. If it matters, then it should be worth specifying, if only to establish precedent as the "correct" way to write instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Oh great...here we go again... Now I gotta put an "s" after "hand"... Oh joy... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Up here "In Hand " means both hands on gun ... Pointed down range... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 His other hand as per stage conventions can not be touching his shells. The instructions say what they say and should be executed as written. When we start judging intent, things get sloppy and some posses will shoot the stage differently than others were allowed to. It’s not that difficult to write “hands” if that’s what you want them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifehand Joe Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Now I gotta put an "s" after "hand"... I'm not sure that would actually clear anything up. Perhaps just a description of what "in hand" means in the context of SASS...as folks might come into the sport with preconceptions of what it means, and I'm not seeing it in the Shooters Handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Chance Morgun Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 You must have a pretty quiet posse. Usually when the TO reads the instructions, someone will ask, one or two hands, and will be told, " Standing with shotgun in hand. This means both hands. Not holding it with one hand with the other one grabbing shells." or " Shotgun in hand. Yes, you can have the other one on shells, but they cannot be pulled before the beep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifehand Joe Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said: His other hand as per stage conventions can not be touching his shells. 3 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said: Yes, you can have the other one on shells, but they cannot be pulled before the beep. Case in point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Knifehand Joe said: Case in point. Case in point that not everyone has a complete understanding of the rules. Case in point that not everyone thoroughly reads the manuals. Case in point that this stuff is driving me NUTS!!!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I wonder if a stage started with one pistol in hand, would those of you saying that in hand means both hands, enforce that in this case too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knifehand Joe Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Phantom, I agree with your first two points, and will take your word for it on your third one. (grinning) Some wording changes could make things clearer to newer shooters; I would gladly volunteer some sweat equity and three years experience as an Army technical writer o accomplish any revisions that a group of experienced shooters could confirm as the intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Rings SASS # 27466 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 When I write a stage and don't care how the shooter holds the gun I will say in hand(s). The shooter gets to choose. I also don't care in that case if they choose to be aiming the gun at the target. If your club has stage standards that is fine as long as everyone is informed. At my club shooters aren't hesitant to ask for clarification. SR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Quote o At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once. ... o Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time. SHB pp.6-7 For those taking the position that "in hand" only refers to ONE hand, there is precedent in the above cited rules regarding the term being applied in the commonly accepted plural...otherwise the penalty for violation would only apply when BOTH loaded revolvers were held in ONE hand at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.N. Double Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 When I've seen this starting position used, the instructions state "in both hands" and most folks put the back of their hand on the forend so they can go straight down to their shells. It seems the solution is to clarify the instructions. I'm all for folks getting creative, even if it can be annoying sometimes. We don't want to stifle creativity -- or be ambiguous with stage instructions -- in a game where we are trying to recruit new (and younger) shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Our club has the standard of "Shotgun in hand, BOTH hands on gun, NOT touching ammo". Solves situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 "In hand" means whatever the Match Director says it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Quote Safety & Handling Conventions – Shotguns - Shotguns are always staged open and empty and are loaded on the clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands. SHB p.15 Does this mean that anytime the shotgun isn't "staged" that the shooter is allowed to start with it loaded w/action closed & cocked...shouldered & pointed at the first target? ...if there are no specific stage instructions stating otherwise? (e.g. "open & empty shotgun held in both hands") ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I think we are trying to recruit honest shooters who have a love for the spirit of the game,and not those who are always looking for ways around the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Thanks for the clarification, PaleWolf. I was thinking the shooter could hold the gun in one hand. I believe the prohibition against holding/touching ammunition is is quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 I always figured that if the TO told me I was doing something incorrectly with regards to my "starting position" that I should simply defer to his instructions. After all, that's part of the reason why he is there. Heck, I've been known to ask, "Where am I supposed to put my hands again for this one?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 oy!!!!!!! I once didn't understand the TO telling me my hands cudn't be on my revolvers,,, I got the P,,, in this case I would have simply told the shooter fine,,, but he'd get the P if he did it that way,, period,,, before the beep,,,, then if he wanted to protest he cud afterwards,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 OY ! Put on some pop corn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Who is in charge of the stage/firing line?! Did all of the previous shooters start with the SG in hands? The shooter disregarded the TOs instructions and should have been penalized. The book also states that the TO shall not start a shooter in a faulted position. If the shooter doesn't want to comply, send them to the unloading table. And yes, it's hard ass Wednesday. Barry Sloe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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