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Another Interpretation question


irish ike, SASS #43615

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So to prove a point the next stage instructions said, 'starting position with hands gripping hat'. I come to the line and turn to the TO and start to reach for his hat. He says what are you doing. I say the instructions didn't say who's hat so I'm going to grip yours! I made sure I said it loud enough for the shooter that did the shotgun thing to hear. We laughed.

Ike

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16 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So to prove a point the next stage instructions said, 'starting position with hands gripping hat'. I come to the line and turn to the TO and start to reach for his hat. He says what are you doing. I say the instructions didn't say who's hat so I'm going to grip yours! I made sure I said it loud enough for the shooter that did the shotgun thing to hear. We laughed.

Ike

 

I once, to prove the same type point, held my hat in both hands at my waist ready to grab my first pistol. ATB dropped the hat and drew. Message delivered to all assembled. The whole purpose of stage instructions is to get everyone shooting the stage the same way.

 

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

Who is in charge of the stage/firing line?!  Did all of the previous shooters start with the SG in hands?  The shooter disregarded the TOs instructions and should have been penalized.  

The book also states that the TO shall not start a shooter in a faulted position.  If the shooter doesn't want to comply,  send them to the unloading table. 

And yes, it's hard ass Wednesday. 

 

Barry Sloe

Enforcing the rules is not being a hard-ass.

21 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

I once, to prove the same type point, held my hat in both hands at my waist ready to grab my first pistol. ATB dropped the hat and drew. Message delivered to all assembled. The whole purpose of stage instructions is to get everyone shooting the stage the same way.

 

And if your head is normally at waist level, that would be the proper position for your hat to be.

 

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11 minutes ago, Griff said:

Enforcing the rules is not being a hard-ass.

And if your head is normally at waist level, that would be the proper position for your hat to be.

 

 

Waist level and slightly behind you :D:D:D

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Humans are creative creatures, present them with a challenge and they will try to come up with a better/new/different/more fun solution.  That is why it's called human nature. Good luck with trying to change that!

 

Me, I enjoy the creativity and try to rein in the excess.

 

SR

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I too enjoy creativity, but there is a limit.

 

It helps to add repetition to the stage instructions - repeating the known, obvious  rules  just to clarify and remind. 

 

"Your stage instructions didn't tell me I had to follow that rule, so..."

 

We did not always have to do that, but it is now a fact of life.

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5 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 I think we are trying to recruit  honest shooters who have a love for the spirit of the game,and not those who are always looking for ways around the rules.  :blink:

 

I agree with you. The intent of my post wasn't to encourage cheating or finding ways around the rules. However, I don't think we shouldn't be penalizing creative folks for following ambiguous stage instructions. I do think having hands on the shells violates the rules (no ammo in hand(s)), but I can see how "in hand" could be interpreted as "in one hand."

 

I think we can use these kinds of examples to expand our stage writing conventions and maybe even to use new techniques to create interesting stages. For example, if a stage writer purposefully leaves instructions vague, maybe we can all learn something from a creative shooter (a technique, sequence, etc.). I like shooting my guns, but I also like interesting stages that aren't just round dumps.

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and I was enjoying stage writing that you didn't have to spell everything out exactly...  brief, to the point, with options,,,    now, go back to detail everything, that is even in the conventions?  naw!!!   

 

 

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Creative - OK.  Disputing the TO, no.  Most TO try hard to make it the same for everybody.  If someone has a "Creative" way to run a stage, ask when the instructions are read.  That way the TO and the MD can clarify the instructions, if necessary.  

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15 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

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Questions:  Shooter seems bull-headed and is "Willfully shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage".  So, would intentionally starting with his hands on the ammo be a STG?  (I think I answered my own question).

 

If he wants to start with only one hand on the shotgun, would the rest of the Stage Convention apply, - "If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered, hands at the sides"  So, for this stubborn fellow, he has shotgun in a hand, he needs to stand upright with the other hand at his side?

 

Since the shooter was going to start out in a "faulted" position with his hand on ammo, I would have given him choices...  Go unload your guns and take a DNF.  Shoot it this way and take a 30-second STG penalty, or get your hands of the @^%$&^ ammo! 

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Duc,

 

Thanks for asking that question! It reminded me of the clarification that one change of starting position (SG in hand) doesn't negate the rest of the default. So shooter cannot even touch ammo as the default doesn't allow it. Nor can he/she crouch...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Duc,

 

Thanks for asking that question! It reminded me of the clarification that one change of starting position (SG in hand) doesn't negate the rest of the default. So shooter cannot even touch ammo as the default doesn't allow it. Nor can he/she crouch...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Does that mean everyone who put 2 hands on the SG were starting in a faulted position?  Probably not since it's already established that 'in hand' can mean one or both hands. 

 

At my club, they always say 'in hands' to indicate both hands.  I would expect that if and when the instructions say 'in hand' you would be able to have your other hand hovering just above the shotshells.  Didn't we used to call this position (in hands) "cowboy port arms"?  Only difference seems to be that with 'in hands' we can be aiming the gun.  With "Cowboy port arms" we just had a lot of arguments about how far out the barrel could be pointing. 

 

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15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB pp.6-7

 

For those taking the position that "in hand" only refers to ONE hand, there is precedent in the above cited rules regarding the term being applied in the commonly accepted plural...

 

 

 

This is from the Merriam-Webster dictionary

 

 in hand

1: in one's possession or control  had matters well in hand with money in hand

I will admit that I listen to the wording VERY carefully.  I typically understand the "intent".  I also look for ways, in my opinion fit m,y style an d method of engaging a stage.   There are times that I shoot the stage very differently than what has been done so far that day.

 

On the other posse next to Ike, the instructions were "hands on hat".  As RO I requested the shooter to put hands (actually fingers) "on" the hat, meaning the fingers were above the rim not just touching underneath the rim.  I was told others had already started with fingers toughing the underneath the hat, so I agreed.  I have also heard the description of "hands touching hat".  In my opinion "hands touching hat" is different than "hands on hat".  What is the difference?  Well last Sunday I was in third place by 0.29 seconds.

 

Asking questions after the stage was read is critical if you plan on doing something that is based on the grammar of how the stage was written.  Having a vigorous discussion BEFORE the start of a stage is preferred over having an argument during a stage.  I suppose that I am someone who will "ask for permission" verses "asking for forgiveness".

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Does that mean everyone who put 2 hands on the SG were starting in a faulted position?  Probably not since it's already established that 'in hand' can mean one or both hands. 

 

 

In my post I stated that the "faulted position" is hand on ammo... which is specifically disallowed.  I would not allow the shooter to begin with his hands on the ammo.  

Default position is upright with hands at side.  (In this case hand... if you actually interpret the stage description to be singular, instead of plural, (which would be the way I would start).

 

Is this game so difficult that we need lawyers to interpret the rules for the <1% who willfully defy them?  Do we really want a SHB Encyclopedia?  

 

 

SHB pp.6-7

 

For those taking the position that "in hand" only refers to ONE hand, there is precedent in the above cited rules regarding the term being applied in the commonly accepted plural...otherwise the penalty for violation would only apply when BOTH loaded revolvers were held in ONE hand at the same time.  PWB

 

For this scenario, how I would start would be my SxS shouldered, action open and empty, with target in sight over the breech.  Barrels would then be pointed downward, off hand resting lightly on the barrels at about belt level.  There is nothing in the stage description that requires port arms.

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hey Ike,

 

Was the scenario writer's intent that the shooter could have the SG in hands and aimed at the target. I've always understood, in hands to allow the gun to be aimed.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

From what Ike wrote,  for this scenario, how I would start would be my SxS shouldered, action open and empty, with target in sight over the breech.  Barrels would then be pointed downward, off hand resting lightly on the barrels at about belt level.  There is nothing in the stage description that requires port arms.  

 

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26 minutes ago, McCandless said:

In my post I stated that the "faulted position" is hand on ammo... which is specifically disallowed.  I would not allow the shooter to begin with his hands on the ammo.  

Default position is upright with hands at side.  (In this case hand... if you actually interpret the stage description to be singular, instead of plural, (which would be the way I would start).

 

The red ink makes it look like ya disagreed with me.  But danged if I can figure out what we disagree on. 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
5 hours ago, Lobo Too Slow said:

 

I agree with you. The intent of my post wasn't to encourage cheating or finding ways around the rules. However, I don't think we shouldn't be penalizing creative folks for following ambiguous stage instructions. I do think having hands on the shells violates the rules (no ammo in hand(s)), but I can see how "in hand" could be interpreted as "in one hand."

 

I think we can use these kinds of examples to expand our stage writing conventions and maybe even to use new techniques to create interesting stages. For example, if a stage writer purposefully leaves instructions vague, maybe we can all learn something from a creative shooter (a technique, sequence, etc.). I like shooting my guns, but I also like interesting stages that aren't just round dumps.

 This has been settled long ago that in hand means two hands not in one hand and on the other hand. We all know what the instructions meant and for those who say they did not ,I say  pull out your book and read the SOG.

 

 Best Wishes:FlagAm:

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Hi Allie

For us in hand means the shooter can hold or position the gun anyway they feel is best for them. 98.67% of the shooters have the butt to their shoulder, open action, muzzle pointed down range. With SXS most have the stock level and the barrel pointed down. Hands are around stock, some hold the forearm like they are shooting. Others place the top of their hand against the forearm to allow faster reach to shells.

Ike

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5 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Hand is singular.

 

Hands is plural.

mmmmm   as in ...  give me a hand,,,,,, as to help

 

or as in aplause,,, give them a hand?

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7 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So to prove a point the next stage instructions said, 'starting position with hands gripping hat'. I come to the line and turn to the TO and start to reach for his hat. He says what are you doing. I say the instructions didn't say who's hat so I'm going to grip yours! I made sure I said it loud enough for the shooter that did the shotgun thing to hear. We laughed.

Ike

 

Guns of August a few years back.  Start with hands (plural) on hat.   With both of my hands I removed my hat from my head and with both hands held my hat at my chest.  BEEP!  I placed my hat back on my head and then proceeded to shoot the stage.  TO had his evil eye on me and told after the stage he would have penalize me (right.y so) if I hadn't put my hat back on my head.

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12 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 I think we are trying to recruit  honest shooters who have a love for the spirit of the game,and not those who are always looking for ways around the rules.  :blink:

 

I've been thinking about this post and it's gotten the better of me.  I don't think you meant to, but you're implying those of us who try to shoot smarter are cheating. 

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I wondered if that shooter at some time shot U.S.P.S.A.? That type of shooting when I did it you were to think outside the box from the wording and figure a faster way to shoot the stage over your opponent. I used it in training on the P.D. to get the young coppers to use their heads, move, and figure a way to hit the target. Once at the end of the shooting scenario they would have 5 shots left and had to hit a bowling pin off the stump from 50 yards. I told them the clock would continue till that pin fell off the stump. That's all I said. Finally one figured out after 5 shots and never hit it, he ran up to it and knocked it off the post with his hand. Then the clock stopped. At my range we always write in, both hands, one hand, port arms, there is no question about it then. I can see the shooters point. Don't spell it out, I'll think of something faster if I can. Good shooting in my book, but we are here to have fun.

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Hmm....

 

Shooter starts at position 1, holding his or her hat in both hands, waist high.  At the beep, using both hands, shooter puts their hat on head, draws first pistol....

 

Kinda hard to find any ambiguity there. 

 

Oh, wait...

 

If shooter is not wearing a hat, then starts with hands on hips, arms akimbo.  At the beep, shooter taps the top of their head with both hands, draws first pistol...

 

(Arms akimbo is the classic George Reeves as Superman or Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman hands on hips pose.)

 

How does that work?

 

(Tongue firmly in cheek) 

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Sounds like the shooter's profession is lawyer.  To account for shooters that will state "Depends on what the definition of is is" after they get called on their interpretation of the stage script the stage script should be definitive or the definition of "hands on hat", "in hand" or "in hands" needs to be added to the SHB & ROHB's.  Also, if the stage writer doesn't want the shooter to choose to hold the shotgun in hand(s) that minimizes the time between beep and last target down, the script should be very specific about shotgun starting position. 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
12 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I've been thinking about this post and it's gotten the better of me.  I don't think you meant to, but you're implying those of us who try to shoot smarter are cheating. 

 Not my intent  at all .This is like where is your belly button, or did I break the 170 or 180 maybe it was 171  or maybe 181  This is why we have the SOG penalty.

  Best wishes 

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13 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

mmmmm   as in ...  give me a hand,,,,,, as to help

 

or as in aplause,,, give them a hand?

As in hand-shake.

 

Cowpokes in 50 States (or 57 as Obama stated) and several countries can have different regional assumptions.  And understands can be misinterpreted in the translation.  Even within the same family!

 

IMHO a Stage writer should, as briefly as possible, say what she or he means.  Don't dance around the bush and assumed everyone has the same understanding as yourself.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 Not my intent  at all .This is like where is your belly button, or did I break the 170 or 180 maybe it was 171  or maybe 181  This is why we have the SOG penalty.

  Best wishes 

 

Actually no, the Spirit of the Game penalty is something completely different.  That was a very hard lesson for me to learn when I first joined SASS and why I think the name of that penalty needs to be changed.  That being said, I understand where you're coming from.

 

The other side of that coin is that there are people in this game that take the competition very seriously.  I'm one of those people.  I and all of the others realize we're not competing for anything more than personal satisfaction, but we still have an incredibly strong desire to win.  In order to do that we have to push ourselves, our equipment and in some cases the rules to the limit.  No, we never EVER want to break the rules, but if there's a way to shoot a stage faster that's within the rules we're sure gonna take advantage of that.  Thankfully rules are very black and white.  There are no degrees of legality, it's either legal or it's not. So I'm most definitely not going to place self imposed restrictions on myself simply because something is "more legal" than something else. 

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