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Another Interpretation question


irish ike, SASS #43615

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Guns are staged or in hand.

 

If staged, how and where should be specific if you want specifics .

 

If in hand, in what position? (ie. Cowboy Port). If not spefified, it's  down and dirty.

 

If your told to "double tap all targets". It's a round count. If it's a sweep, you need to know what type, No?

 

I shoot 4 ranges. What they do on one does not apply anywhere else...

You run the stage as directed. If you don't understand,  ask. If you don't like it, go home.

 

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Does a duelist have a pistol in hand? 

 

When I'm drinking coffee, I have my cup in hand. Can you tell if it is in only one hand or both hands based on that statement?

 

We could debate on and on about whether "in hand" means one hand or two, but regardless of how many points are made, rules are quoted, word definitions are listed, or examples of how "in hand" sometimes can mean one hand and at other times mean two hands. . .the fact, as demonstrated by this thread, is that not all will ever agree. 

 

Now imagine that you are a match director and have chosen posse marshals from the participants in this thread, some who insist that "in hand" means one hand and others who insist it means two hands. You've just created a match that has the potential to be unfair. After it has been shot and someone sees a YouTube video of a competitor doing it different than their posse marshal's interpretation, you've got a problem and a legitimate problem at that. Why deal with that when the solution is so simple? If the stage writer intends both hands to be on the gun, then use the word "hands." It's one tiny little curly letter that has the potential to avoid big problems.

 

I can't read a stage writer's mind to determine their intent. I don't have to wonder their intent if they clearly write it down. One "s" fixes this problem. 

 

 

 

 

PS:

The stage writer for the North Alabama Regulators is Double Nickel. He writes stages that I consider shooter friendly, no P traps, interesting target orders and movement, but not overly complicated memory games. Before he publishes them, I read over them and do my best to find anything that could be interpreted differently from one shooter to the next or from one posse to the next.

 

Not too long ago he wrote a stage with original instructions that read "with shotgun in hand." I asked him, "Do you intend for there to be one hand or two hands on the shotgun?" We discussed that an "s" could be added and nobody could think that only one hand was required on the shotgun. We also discussed leaving the "s" off and adding "and the other hand anywhere except touching ammo." He liked both ways. He chose one of the wordings, but I don't remember which. I don't care as long as everyone has the same opportunities. 

 

Ambush is coming up. Y'all come!

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

Guns are staged or in hand.

 

If staged, how and where should be specific if you want specifics .

 

If in hand, in what position? (ie. Cowboy Port). If not spefified, it's  down and dirty.

 

If your told to "double tap all targets". It's a round count. If it's a sweep, you need to know what type, No?

 

I shoot 4 ranges. What they do on one does not apply anywhere else...

You run the stage as directed. If you don't understand,  ask. If you don't like it, go home.

 

Blast,

I am still in corner that in hand is singular, the other hand where-ever as long as not holding shells freely....but seems I am in wrong corner. 

As you mention, specifics are necessary.

Interpretations again...I interpret what you wrote as to say a double tap all targets IS a round count stage. Well, kind of sorta, as long as shooter engages each target in some order, BUT AS a double tap.  I would call a round count stage more as one that just says X rounds (2 per your example)  on each target, any order. 2 rounds on each target could be double tap (if not told-NO double taps) or could just be shot twice within 10 shots. 

 I may have mis-interpreted your example. 

IMO, a sweep is from one end to other, anything different should be told and not just by a name (names are forgotten by some and certainly not known by new shooters), give example (start on center target and sweep, etc).  Again, MO.

b

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When I write stages, this is the appendix that applies to all stages.  It's an effort to eliminate different interpretations.

 

Notes  -  Unless specifically called out otherwise in stage directions:

  • Sequences and sweeps may be shot in either direction and can be in different directions between rifle and pistols.  
  • SG targets are engaged until down for KD or hit for Swingers.
  • Starting positions are standing like you walk following directions like “Hands on Hat”. 
  • Starting positions must have both feet inside and behind starting table, window, door, etc. and remain that way for the string.  If a start plate or painted spot on the ground is used, at least one part of a foot must remain on plate/spot during string. 
  • Long guns must be touched with both hands if you are starting with one.
  • When you reach a shooting position, at least the toes on one foot must be behind the shooting position.
  • Shoot targets directly in front of position, using firearms specified.
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On 7/11/2018 at 4:45 AM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I always figured that if the TO told me I was doing something incorrectly with regards to my "starting position" that I should simply defer to his instructions.  After all, that's part of the reason why he is there.

 

Heck, I've been known to ask, "Where am I supposed to put my hands again for this one?"

This is the case for me last weekend. At my second ever shoot, I asked the TO on my posse (Irish Ike was in the other posse that generated the OP) what I should do with my hands as I hadn't yet come across this stage instruction in my limited shooting history. He clearly stated that it meant two hands on the shotgun but the forward hand could simply be touching and ready to go for my shells. He made sure everyone, to my knowledge, did it the same way.

 

The definition of "in hand" primarily means that you, or the item referred to, are ready which could easily mean only one hand on the gun. It should probably be in a list of agreed definitions in the SASS handbook or at least a more definitive stage written using the plural so there is no debate. I know that our posse did everything the same way. If the other did not there could have been an unknown and unwitting advantage for one or the other. Who knows, I may not have come in last. ;)

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
7 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Actually no, the Spirit of the Game penalty is something completely different.  That was a very hard lesson for me to learn when I first joined SASS and why I think the name of that penalty needs to be changed.  That being said, I understand where you're coming from.

 

The other side of that coin is that there are people in this game that take the competition very seriously.  I'm one of those people.  I and all of the others realize we're not competing for anything more than personal satisfaction, but we still have an incredibly strong desire to win.  In order to do that we have to push ourselves, our equipment and in some cases the rules to the limit.  No, we never EVER want to break the rules, but if there's a way to shoot a stage faster that's within the rules we're sure gonna take advantage of that.  Thankfully rules are very black and white.  There are no degrees of legality, it's either legal or it's not. So I'm most definitely not going to place self imposed restrictions on myself simply because something is "more legal" than something else. 

 We agree, I to want to  also do my best .I think interpretation of the rules can be problematic at times.I always ask when I have a doubt.We do disagree on the meaning of the SOG .

 

Best wishes 

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Hand, hand, fingers, thumb. One thumb, one thumb, drumming on a drum. One hand, two hands, drumming on a drum. Dum ditty dum ditty dum dum dum... 

 

Write the stage as you intend it, knowing there are CAS-lawyers looking to twist what "it" is.  

In this case, since he insisted in starting with hand on ammo, let him shoot it that way with a 30-second SOG.  Next shooter.

 

Does Bigfoot only have one foot... or is one foot big and the other just a footlong?

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3 hours ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Blast,

I am still in corner that in hand is singular, the other hand where-ever as long as not holding shells freely....but seems I am in wrong corner. 

As you mention, specifics are necessary.

Interpretations again...I interpret what you wrote as to say a double tap all targets IS a round count stage. Well, kind of sorta, as long as shooter engages each target in some order, BUT AS a double tap.  I would call a round count stage more as one that just says X rounds (2 per your example)  on each target, any order. 2 rounds on each target could be double tap (if not told-NO double taps) or could just be shot twice within 10 shots. 

 I may have mis-interpreted your example. 

IMO, a sweep is from one end to other, anything different should be told and not just by a name (names are forgotten by some and certainly not known by new shooters), give example (start on center target and sweep, etc).  Again, MO.

b

I was on my phone and was not clear.  If I were just to say "Dbl Tap all Targets", I am leaving it up to you and your creativity to get it done a quickly as possible.

 

Hand / Hand(s) makes no never-mind. That should not be the point. If any gun is in hand, it is not in a holster or staged somewhere.

Now that your standing there with a gun, how do you hold it?

Then, how do you shoot it?

 

If the stage writer says "In Hand" and nothing else, no one should be assuming anything further. Not because that's how your club shoots. Not how you did it before. No how they did it at End of Trail...

 

As for the OP "touching shells"; they are not "In Hand" just like your pistol is not " In Hand" when it is in your holster.

"Hands on pistols" - "Hands on Shells", what is the difference? (Not saying there may not be a rule against that somewhere, or some range). But that too must be directed every time a stage is read.

 

As for my dbl tap sweeps etc. ; I was just pointing out that if a stage says hit all targets with a dbl tap at least once... that's it. Two shots in sequence on every target. You can just dump the rest on one target if no one writes otherwise.  If it's "at least two shots in all targets" shoot at anything you was, just be sure to hit each target twice. (Spotters Nightmare)! Point I'm trying to make is if it is not specific, it's optional.  And there is no need for argument on the range...

 

 

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EOT TG Meeting Minutes (2016)  Rules Clarification:

 "Standing upright: If shooter is to start with hands on hat or other stance, they must remain standing upright until after the beep, unless stage instructions indicate otherwise. Example: Just because the scenario states to point 1 hand downrange does not mean the shooter can have the other hand on the gun or bend down over the gun, unless stage instructions state otherwise. The other hand must be at SASS default, at side not touching guns and shooter must be standing upright. Any exceptions to the “default” position DO NOT negate the other criteria."

 

If the shooter insists that only one hand has to be on the shotgun, the other hand must be at SASS default.

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2 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 We agree, I to want to  also do my best .I think interpretation of the rules can be problematic at times.I always ask when I have a doubt.We do disagree on the meaning of the SOG .

 

Best wishes 

 

Are you talking about a person’s general attitude or the SOG rule? Again, it took me a very long time to realize there’s a difference. An official SOG penalty pertains to a person blatantly ignoring stage instructions to try to save time. 

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Let’s go back to a basic clarification that was made years ago, any part of the starting position that is not specifically described, reverts back to sass default (hands on hat only tells what to do with the hands, so the rest of the body position revertes to sass default. IE standing fully erect).  

 

So using the shooters argument that “shotgun in hand only means one hand” than the other hand would have to revert to sass starting position conventions “arms hanging loosely at sides” 

 

  Doing anything  else with the hand that he believes doesn’t have to be on the shotgun is simply “failure to follow stage instructions” and therefore a “P” 

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19 minutes ago, Gawd Awful said:

Let’s go back to a basic clarification that was made years ago, any part of the starting position that is not specifically described, reverts back to sass default (hands on hat only tells what to do with the hands, so the rest of the body position revertes to sass default. IE standing fully erect).  

 

So using the shooters argument that “shotgun in hand only means one hand” than the other hand would have to revert to sass starting position conventions “arms hanging loosely at sides” 

 

  Doing anything  else with the hand that he believes doesn’t have to be on the shotgun is simply “failure to follow stage instructions” and therefore a “P” 

Psst... there is no requirement to stand fully erect. The only requirement is standing upright. ;)

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30 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Psst... there is no requirement to stand fully erect. The only requirement is standing upright. ;)

Funny...I usually stand horizontal.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Psst... there is no requirement to stand fully erect. The only requirement is standing upright. ;)

Oh good. I'd knock a gun off the prop.

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14 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Psst... there is no requirement to stand fully erect. The only requirement is standing upright. ;)

 

When another thread is started to argue the difference I put the over/under at five pages. :blink:

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That's why I use "Starting positions are standing like you walk ....".  I allows people that have back problems to stand as they need to, but otherwise healthy people not to game the system.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
23 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

That's why I use "Starting positions are standing like you walk ....".  I allows people that have back problems to stand as they need to, but otherwise healthy people not to game the system.

What about someone who walks like an EGYPTIAN?:D 

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2 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

That's why I use "Starting positions are standing like you walk ....".  I allows people that have back problems to stand as they need to, but otherwise healthy people not to game the system.

 

That's why I use the instruction "All stages begin with shooters CHOICE of body posture unless specifically stated otherwise"

This allows EVERYONE to begin in whatever desired body position that best suits them and their approach to the stage.

(which may vary stage to stage or as they tire over the course of the day)

 

After all - it is not important that everyone conforms to some made up arbitrary standard - what is important is that everyone has access to the same options.

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12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

After all - it is not important that everyone conforms to some made up arbitrary standard - what is important is that everyone has access to the same options.

 

^ This X 1,000

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

Clarify  please  Are you saying posse one says this posse two says that? I would think that would be very unfair .

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On 7/14/2018 at 6:36 AM, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Clarify  please  Are you saying posse one says this posse two says that? I would think that would be very unfair .

Are you asking me for a clarification?

I was speaking as a match director; whereas I have ability to define requirements.

In that case I allow for any body posture unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

If I am a posse Marshal at someone else's shoot; I, of course, hold the posse to the SASS standard or directions of the match director.

 

But at a shoot where I am in charge of stages; the starting body posture is up to the shooter.

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7 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

But at a shoot where I am in charge of stages; the starting body posture is up to the shooter.

 

As it should be throughout all of SASS. 

 

To paraphrase your oh so accurate statement from above, It’s not important for everybody to adhere to some arbitrary standard. What’s important is all shooters have the same options.

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58 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

As it should be throughout all of SASS. 

 

To paraphrase your oh so accurate statement from above, It’s not important for everybody to adhere to some arbitrary standard. What’s important is all shooters have the same options.

I would argue that the premise is faulty...

 

But...I'm but a little stage writer in Texas...;)

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would argue that the premise is faulty...

 

But...I'm but a little stage writer in Texas...;)

 

Cheers!

Phantom

Ok, I'll bite.

If you're going to claim someone's else's position is faulty...

 

In your opinion;

what makes conformity in a given starting position (which may benefit some individuals and penalize others) superior to allowing the individual to choose the starting position that best advantages them?

 

And follow up question...

If universal conformity is required and superior to individual choice.

Do you refuse to allow shooters choice of gun order, movement direction or round counts stages as well?

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9 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Ok, I'll bite.

If you're going to claim someone's else's position is faulty...

 

In your opinion;

what makes conformity in a given starting position (which may benefit some individuals and penalize others) superior to allowing the individual to choose the starting position that best advantages them?

 

And follow up question...

If universal conformity is required and superior to individual choice.

Do you refuse to allow shooters choice of gun order, movement direction or round counts stages as well?

You have a tendency to make things overly complicated... apparently you like to write.

 

Your choice of referring to the standard as arbitrary is fascinating.

 

You come across as rather supercilious with your second question... So there obviously isn't any sense in answering it.

 

Phantom

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If the rules are not exact enough, you go by precedent, which is both hands.  Your were right.

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23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You have a tendency to make things overly complicated... apparently you like to write.

 

Your choice of referring to the standard as arbitrary is fascinating.

 

You come across as rather supercilious with your second question... So there obviously isn't any sense in answering it.

 

Phantom

 

But that's the thing, he's trying to make it LESS complicated.  By allowing shooters to choose the stance they want it removes any doubt as to conformity or interpretation.  We most definitely wouldn't have multi-page threads here on the Wire trying to clarify the definition of "standing" or "erect".  

 

And it is arbitrary.  Why "standing erect".  It's just something that was pulled out of a hat. We used to have "port arms".  That was too confusing so we switched to "Cowboy port arms".  Still too confusing so we started saying "shotgun in hand".  To take it even further we could get silly and specify "in a three point stance akin to an NFL lineman".  That would be uniform, right?  (And I'm not trying to be snarky there so please don't take it that way.  Just trying to illustrate that there's no purpose behind it.)

 

The bottom line is the desire for conformity is misguided.  It really doesn't accomplish anything.  As both Creeker and I pointed out, as long as everyone has the same options to shoot a stage the match will be fair. Some stages allow shooters to move from left to right or right to left.  Other stages allow choice of gun order.  A starting position choice would be absolutely the same.

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7 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

But that's the thing, he's trying to make it LESS complicated.  By allowing shooters to choose the stance they want it removes any doubt as to conformity or interpretation.  We most definitely wouldn't have multi-page threads here on the Wire trying to clarify the definition of "standing" or "erect".  

 

And it is arbitrary.  Why "standing erect".  It's just something that was pulled out of a hat. We used to have "port arms".  That was too confusing so we switched to "Cowboy port arms".  Still too confusing so we started saying "shotgun in hand".  To take it even further we could get silly and specify "in a three point stance akin to an NFL lineman".  That would be uniform, right?  (And I'm not trying to be snarky there so please don't take it that way.  Just trying to illustrate that there's no purpose behind it.)

 

The bottom line is the desire for conformity is misguided.  It really doesn't accomplish anything.  As both Creeker and I pointed out, as long as everyone has the same options to shoot a stage the match will be fair. Some stages allow shooters to move from left to right or right to left.  Other stages allow choice of gun order.  A starting position choice would be absolutely the same.

I'm sure he's a stellar stage writer and his intentions are wonderful. I'm not being facetious either.

 

Based on your criteria, nearly everything would be deemed arbitrary. Someone wanted to have a "Standard"...so therefore it must be arbitrary? (And I'm one that doesn't care for the "Default Position".) Using the word arbitrary as one's argument loses me.

 

You reference "in hand"...and now thanks to certain thinking, we are debating THAT!!!   And now there are some that want to re-name "Sweep"...OY!!!!!!!!!

 

Straw Man-ish statements about conformity doesn't really work either. Just because folks were looking for a Standard starting position doesn't mean that they are looking to force Conformity onto us.

 

All this because someone wanted to challenge the defined shooting sequence "Sweep"...Too me...it's just a big fat JOKE!

 

Phantom

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I'll concede your point on "arbitrary".  Yes, it can be said about pretty much anything and therefore loses it's weight as a discussion point. But my question still stands, why mandate a specific position regardless of what that position is?  I don't see what purpose it serves.

 

This may sound odd but I actually agree with most everything you just posted.  I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the three of us; you, Creeker and I all have the same goal.  We all want to write stages that will provide a good test of skill while remaining enjoyable for our customers. I just think we're taking different roads to get there.

 

 

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Hi Folks,

 

Although I do not always agree with the ROC, I do not believe any of their decisions are arbitrary.

 

IMO, having a default starting position eliminates discussion and saves time when the PM reads the scenario and saves the scenario writer from the need to spell one out in every scenario.

 

If you want a new starting position in the conventions, lobby for it or use it at your match. If sufficient numbers of MDs like it, they will start using it. Before long its use may become widespread.  It was a long time coming; but, we finally got Total Time Scoring as the official method.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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43 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Folks,

 

Although I do not always agree with the ROC, I do not believe any of their decisions are arbitrary.

 

IMO, having a default starting position eliminates discussion and saves time when the PM reads the scenario and saves the scenario writer from the need to spell one out in every scenario.

 

If you want a new starting position in the conventions, lobby for it or use it at your match. If sufficient numbers of MDs like it, they will start using it. Before long its use may become widespread.  It was a long time coming; but, we finally got Total Time Scoring as the official method.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

And this is exactly what I was describing to Phantom when I said we all have same goal, we're just trying to get there different ways.  IMO removing any default and allowing shooters to choose their own starting position accomplishes the exact same things you're talking about with even less fuss.  No description needed. 

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

I'll concede your point on "arbitrary".  Yes, it can be said about pretty much anything and therefore loses it's weight as a discussion point. But my question still stands, why mandate a specific position regardless of what that position is?  I don't see what purpose it serves.

 

This may sound odd but I actually agree with most everything you just posted.  I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that the three of us; you, Creeker and I all have the same goal.  We all want to write stages that will provide a good test of skill while remaining enjoyable for our customers. I just think we're taking different roads to get there.

 

 

Oh I'm sure we would see eye to eye on many things.

 

Furthermore, I have always had a distaste for the "Default position". I believe it came about because some folks didn't think it looked cowboy to be all bent up and crouched over one's gun at the start of a stage. I'm in the camp of "who cares", since anyone can do the same.

 

The default position is not uniformly performed nor enforce... Regardless of the original intentions, it should be put in the same trash bin as the closed lever penalty.

 

The "Sweep" issue is a whole nuther story ;)

 

Phantom

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