Cowboys/Cowgirls - what would attract you to Wild Bunch?

[Grouchy Spike 70]

Cowboys and cowgirls, several of us Wild Bunch Action Shooters are having a discussion on the Wild Bunch forum about how to increase the value of Wild Bunch Action Shooting to attract more CAS shooters into the WBAS game.  There are no better sources of information than ‘straight from the horses mouth’ so I’m asking the ‘horses’.  Please tell us slide action shooters what Wild Bunch requirements, rules, and matches would look like to attract you rotating action shooters to this game! Where is WBAS lacking in value to you? What would add value so as to allow you to 'buy' into the WBAS game?  All Comments and Criticisms are welcome and if you want to Flame get after it – I have asbestos britches!

[Assassin 1,499]

Everyone does not have a love affair with 1911's and the many have a problem with the rules. When WB started it was a period game, guns of that particular era, not just 1911's and Winchester pump guns. Most guns of the era were allowed. Believe it or not WB was shot for many years before SASS got their hands on it and made it what it is today. It's tough enough for CAS shooters to get enough time for cowboy matches. I'd prefer to spend my time promoting cowboy shooting.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448 935]

Except for one club having a WB match every 5th Saturday, no clubs hold them except for State and large annuals.

[Yul Lose 6,238]

I don't own a 1911 and all of my 97's are 16 gauge. WB just never appealed to me either. At the Escondido Bandidos cowboy matches nearly every month there will be a WB shooter shooting the match with us and no one seems to mind, they call it Pike category and they are only shooting against themselves or another WBer if one shows up, but when on a fifth Sunday they hold a WB match us cowboy shooters aren't allowed to shoot their match cowboy style, I've never understood that. It seems to me if you shoot the cowboy match WB style you shouldn't mind letting cowboys shoot your WB match.

[Grouchy Spike 70]

Thanks for the replies!  That is valuable info!

[Black Angus McPherson 416]

I don't own a 1911 or an 1897.  I'd be happy to have an excuse to buy a 1911.  I've always wanted one, but never had any excuse to buy one.  As for the Win. '97, I've never cared for them.  I'd take one if someone were so inclined to gift me one, but I have no interest in spending any of my limited discretionary funds on one.

 

Angus

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,660]

IMO (personal opinion ONLY):

Until WBAS changes the rules to require SEVEN (7) rounds in the magazine of the 1911, instead of only 5, some shooters will continue to see it as

"Cowboy Action shooting with a 1911".

The primary reason I keep hearing against doing that is that going to seven rounds would confuse shooters who are used to multiple 5-round sequences with the handgun...which (also IMO) is somewhat condescending in reference to the adaptability of those who participate in both WBAS and CAS.

 

FWIW - I've been shooting WB-style matches and sidematches for over 20 years...starting long before the WBAS rules were established to regulate equipment, calibers, etc.

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384 1,352]

Wild Bunch is a side match and likely always will be. The biggest problem I see with it and Western 3 gun are that they only really draw SASS shooters and not people from outside. That makes your pool of shooters who you are pulling from pretty small. I don't think anything could actually get off the ground and become self supporting with a hill like that to climb. They will have a hard time attracting shooters from other disciplines until they actually start using the 1911 in the way it was designed to be used. 

[High Spade Mikey Wilson 281]

Some of our local clubs allow WB in a few matches a year. I tried it a few times but to be truthful before I came to cowboy action I shot 3 gun tactical using one semi-auto pistol (and later my beloved S&W 586 revolver and speed loaders), pump shotgun, and an AR15. Except for the rifle, and shooting at cardboard targets then instead of steel now, it was almost the same thing that I got tired of with 3 gun tactical. These days I'd much rather shoot two single action revolvers over one 1911 or any other semi auto pistol.

[Buckshot Dobbs 81]

Main reason I do not shoot WB is that it is not offered anywhere near me. WB is shot once a year that I know of in my state at a range, almost a 3 hour drive for me. That shoot is the state championship for WB, and they shoot the second half of that match on Sunday, which I prefer not to shoot on Sundays. I have all the equipment so I would shoot it, if'n it were available, but it aint.

 

BD

 

 

[Mack Hacker, #60477 51]

I didn't even like the movie.  Never really had a desire to own a 1911. Neither were part of my growing up process like Colts, Double barrel shotguns and lever action rifles.  The only movie from that period that  I liked was The Professionals. I still think it was only made because Lee Marvin wanted to show the world what the Magnificent Seven could have been with a believable cast

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth 6,581]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Everyone does not have a love affair with 1911's and the many have a problem with the rules. When WB started it was a period game, guns of that particular era, not just 1911's and Winchester pump guns. Most guns of the era were allowed. Believe it or not WB was shot for many years before SASS got their hands on it and made it what it is today. It's tough enough for CAS shooters to get enough time for cowboy matches. I'd prefer to spend my time promoting cowboy shooting.

 

WOW....was that Grouchy I just saw....

[Creeker, SASS #43022 2,464]

While I own 1911's; I don't shoot 45 or 44 in my cowboy rifle.  And If I am buying another rifle, it will be in a caliber that I use for cowboy. 

So the caliber restriction in rifle takes me out of it.

I am in full agreement with Palewolf regarding the magazine restriction of 5 rounds (it is silly, arbitrary and contrary to what anyone will admit, is a holdover from when SASS was trying to implement WB as a SASS category).

 

Want to make the game interesting and more fun to watch?

Drop the lever rifle from the mix altogether - it was just a CAS carryover anyway.

Add a 2nd pistol - A correct era DA revolver in any caliber.

This would add variety to the round counts and endless magazine changes.

 

Add a 2nd shotgun. 

Slam firing a full mag of 12g is the best thing about WB.  Add more of that.

 

And, maybe not every stage, but it is worth pondering a 4-5 shot military bolt action rifle and a true rifle target placement.

Proper steel placed at a 100 yards will hold up to jacketed bullets.

 

With these changes, WB becomes it's own discipline and sheds the cowboy shooting with a 1911 reputation.

 

This is a game I might consider.

 

[Doc Shapiro 1,067]

Not for me.  If I'm looking for a match for my 1911, I go shoot IPSC and Steel Challenge.  WB seems more like an excuse to use a 1911 instead of a pair of revolvers.  

[Smokestack SASS#87384 1,352]

I think it has grown about as much as it is going to as a SASS side Match. Post this same question on an IPSC forum and the answer will probably be more clear. 

[John Henry Quick 579]

I shoot Cowboy and I shoot modern.  I'm simply not interested in something in between.  In my eyes, 1911's and pump guns ain't Cowboy.  Others can shoot it and I hope they enjoy it, but not me.

[Cypress Sun 2,605]

I'm with Creeker as far as the rifle goes......not going to buy a .45 rifle, brass and reloading items. WB isn't offered around here much anyway.

 

I hear the rifle excuse alot though.......take the .45 rule away and they'll draw a larger crowd.

[Tony Crowe 60]

I would shoot Wild Bunch more often IF there were more matches held in my area. I did participate in the WB side match at the Georgia State Championship and enjoyed it. Some of the rules take some getting use to as compared with traditional CAS. Not saying they have to be the same, just that they are different. I hope to have the opportunity to shoot WB more often than just at the annual state match. 

[LostVaquero 487]

I have started WB shooting but it took a long while.  The reason, I did not have a 1911 in 45 (one in 38 super but not legal and also a luger in 9mm).  I also did not have a large caliber rifle (did have a semi auto Thompson).  It is different and I can appreciate that but tell the truth, I think the old idea that some clubs started it had more value.  Come bring your safe queen of any semi auto or double action up to WW1?  Rifle and shotgun was whatever you happened to prefer for cowboy anyway and then shoot along side the rest but just in your own category. 

 

I am not sure how to improve the value of WB.  It is a bit different now that I have done a few shoots and requires some extra thinking.  Most is that there is not a defined order of the targets but some of the cowboy clubs have started that as well.  Plate racks and dueling trees which I think would just as fun with a single action.

 

My suggestion was perhaps something called Turn of Century cowboy to run as a separate group but alongside regular CAS.  More like the bring the old safe queens and maybe then people might like that enough to go WB.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz 7,185]

The 1911 holds 7 in the mag. The ONLY load 5 deal, goes against all on my  LEO training, and is just plain DUM. 

Same goes to only reloading the 1911 at 'slide-lock'.

The '97 SG was never made to hold 6 shells in the mag. But, to use one in WB, the '97 has to be made to do so.

Why can't other SG gauges be used?

Why the caliber restriction on the rifle?

 

OLG

 

[Bullett Sass 19707 83]

SASS at first wanted WB to be another category of cowboy action shooting.   Second they tried to correct the things they thought were wrong with cowboy action,  that's why the power factor and not having tactical reloads.   Every place I have shot wild bunch or watched it being shot its really cowboy shooting with a 1911 except EOT or Winter range.   Its to late now and I wish they would have listened to PW and others, load 7 in the magazine leave out the cowboy rifle and the power factor,  put in a totally different gun and I think it would have gone better.  I personally hate having to remember 5 or six different sequences,  it becomes a memory game instead of shooting.    Bullett 19707

[The Original Lumpy Gritz 7,185]

The change to 7 rnds in the 1911 mag would be easy to put in place. IF, the HMFIC of SASS would allow it. 

But, he'll never sign off on it........ 

OLG

[Smokestack SASS#87384 1,352]

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The change to 7 rnds in the 1911 mag would be easy to put in place. IF, the HMFIC of SASS would allow it. 

But, he'll never sign off on it........ 

OLG

Why not make it 9 rounds? They didn't let magazine capacity dictate how many rounds they cram in a '97. Haha. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz 7,185]

1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

Why not make it 9 rounds? They didn't let magazine capacity dictate how many rounds they cram in a '97. Haha. 

Why not just load the guns to the makers stated capacity? 

I for one would have no issue starting with a condition 1(cocked n locked)1911. It's how I carry mine every day. 

 

OLG

[Hoss 1,102]

we do 4 matches a year at my home club.  We allow folks to shoot it with a 38/357 rifle if they want to. we have 10 or 12 regulars who come out and shoot it. its OK, but I just prefer the revolvers. I did buy a AWA lightning rifle in 44-40 for my WB rifle. Doubt I would have bought a lever in 45 just for WB.

 

I do like shooting the rifle targets with the pistol. Us cowboys shooters have gotten a little spoiled to 16X16 targets at 3 yards. (not saying I don't miss them now & agin!!!!)

 

Loading 7 would make sense. I also wish they would allow shotgun make ups.

[Hoss 1,102]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Why not just load the guns to the makers stated capacity? 

I for one would have no issue starting with a condition 1(cocked n locked)1911. It's how I carry mine every day. 

 

OLG

I know that's how they were designed, but it kind of gives me the willies. I guess if I had more experience with the 1911 I might be more comfortable. When I first got mine I was practicing holstering (with empty gun) I heard the "snick" of the safety come off as I reholstered. that pretty much did it for me, not going to carry one cocked and locked.

[Shooting Bull 1,943]

I left the 1911 world (IPSC, Steel Challenge, etc.) to start playing cowboy. I've found my shooting home and have no desire to go back. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz 7,185]

Just now, Hoss said:

I know that's how they were designed, but it kind of gives me the willies. I guess if I had more experience with the 1911 I might be more comfortable. When I first got mine I was practicing holstering (with empty gun) I heard the "snick" of the safety come off as I reholstered. that pretty much did it for me, not going to carry one cocked and locked.

Then carry something else. You'll not live long enough get a round chambered in a fight.

Unless the grip safety is pressed-It still can't fire.

OLG

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 1,163]

IMHO one of the biggest problems with WB is they have failed to realize who makes up their customer base.  The thought was if SASS had a new sport using a semi-auto thousands of new members would take up the new sport.  Instead 99.99% of WB shooters are simply the same old farts that shoot CAS.  If a CAS shooter is upset about having three misses in a CAS match then they are darn sure gonna hate having 30 misses in a WB match.  WB is also run by a very SMALL number of people who have their own ideas on how WB should be run.  WB is not subject to rule changes by the TGs.

[Kirk James 662]

Wild Brunch looks exciting to me.  It is a matter of cost and time to get the whole family involved.  Good luck and keep it going!

[Brazos John 170]

The Texas Historical Shootist Society started shooting Wild Bunch in October of, maybe 1996, if memory serves me correctly, and now we allow folks to shoot it at every monthly match. We allow (and not limited to) 1911's, Lugers, Broomhandles, military rifles (foreign and domestic) of the correct period, 1897's, and Model 12's. We shoot several mags of .45 or 9mm, and then use a different pistol, either cowboy or period double-actions. No power requirement for the rifle, meaning I can shoot my cowboy Marlin. We warn new shooters that we don't use SASS rules, but we invented it, so it's up to us what we shoot. Major Ned and Rittmeister are always impressive in their foreign military uniforms and Mausers and other guns. I dress like the opening scene, wearing my grandfather's ammo belt and canteen, and some e-Bay riding breeches and leggings, and of course, a campaign hat with Texas insignia. It's all pretty heavy, but I look good, for an old guy. And I love to stoke my '97 and get after it.

Maybe SASS should lighten up on the arms requirements, IMHO.

[Grouchy Spike 70]

1 hour ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

I don't own a 1911 or an 1897.  I'd be happy to have an excuse to buy a 1911.  I've always wanted one, but never had any excuse to buy one.  As for the Win. '97, I've never cared for them.  I'd take one if someone were so inclined to gift me one, but I have no interest in spending any of my limited discretionary funds on one.

 

Angus

The 97s are sometimes troublesome, jokingly said that one must own three - one to shoot, one as backup, and one in the shop.  Maybe a bit exaggerated, two will suffice!    The open category is offered by some clubs for rifles less than 40 cal and SGs other than 97s (or Model 12s).  Do you shoot at clubs that offer either Wild Bunch matches or Cowboy 1911 (sub a 1911 with two mags for two sixguns, CAS rifle and SG)?

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635 468]

I've had the guns and rig for years but I work a fifty hour week and by the time I've shot three cowboy matches in a month I'm out of steam.

 

After many years I'm still working on shooting cowboy well. If I take on another discipline I just further divide my time and resources.

[Procedural Pete 2]

WB sounds fun. I have an 1897 shotgun. I  have A 1911 and a lever gun. But the 1911 and lever gun are not .45. I've spent so much money on guns and stuff for cowboy action I can't justify buying more guns for Wild Bunch. if I could use the guns I have I would love to try it.

[Totes Magoats 283]

I like shooting WB and try to make all the local matches I can and shoot it at the larger matches I attend.

 

I would like to see the caliber requirements less stringent.

 

Totes