What would you do?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Your at an annual or above match. You're on a posse with new folks and a middle of the pack shooter has a high primer that locks up their pistol after firing shots down range. The Posse Marshal says "let's giv'em a reshoot". It's pointed out that SASS rules don't allow for that and the MD should be consulted. PM ignores that and suggests we are just playing a game. Then later on PM overrules spotters on a misses. "It was close enough on the clay in a stand. They hit the stand. I'm calling it a hit. This is only a game. " PM then opens a closed double and since it was empty called a "no call because they changed that rule".

 

What would you do?

 

I keep hearing this phrase "it's only a game" as justification for not following the rules or "it won't hurt anything that's a middle of the pack shooter they aren't going to win anyways. "

 

How do you know that there isn't a middle of the pack shooter on another posse that picks up just enough rank points to keep them out ribbons because a reshoot was granted when it wasn't deserved or a call wasn't made when it should have been?

 

Our sport has rules. They need to be followed....all of them and not just the ones you agree with. If you apply your set of rules then you are penalizing everyone else. What gives you the right to affect their "fun"?

 

Stan

[Two Dot, 14911]

Notify the match director. The PM is penalizing all those following the rules.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I agree with you Stan.

 

In the manner in which you stated, those things are wrong and more so.....bad for our sport/game.

 

If its really just a game, then whats the harm in the penalty? Ask the PM that question and see how he/she replies.

 

What would I do? Get the MD to relieve the PM of his duties. If that didn't work, I would probably let everybody know about such shenanigans and stop going there.

 

 

..........Widder

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Time to find a Posse Marshal that enforces the rules of the "Game". As match director, I would ask that PM to step aside! Report his behavior to the match director.😳

TB

[Stump Water]

PM's attitude is bad for the sport; bad for the "game".

 

I hold the same disregard for the "It's just a monthly match, let it slide crowd."

 

Play by the rules, all the time.

 

Finally, where's the PM's authority to override calls?

[Pit Bull Tex]

He is doing everyone wrong.The PM should never PM if that the way he runs a posse.The MD should never ask him again.

[Most Wanted]

Stan , This is a problem many people have . Some calls are very hard to make and just a couple of weeks ago I made two at a monthly . For many a monthly is all they will ever shoot so even at that level I feel All the rules still apply . I know SASS does give some leeway but the rules is what allows us to play the exact same game all over the world . Both shooters took the calls with class and not one word of disapproval . While some will use the "it's only a game " to bypass the rules I have never played any Organized game that didn't follow the rules 100% . Some may say that if you make a tough call on someone your taking it too serious . I say if you can't handle someone making a tough call on you , your taking it too serious .

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I just got done talking about the on the NevadaCAS board.

 

The problem actually starts with the monthly club shoots where shooter are allowed to violate the rules without anyone saying a word.

The shooter shoots with the same violation for a few months and then all of a sudden an annual match comes along and it becomes a big problem.

Annual matches are important matches for the club that puts them on. And if it is announced that "All SASS rules apply" then that is what should be.

Occasional mistakes in the application of rules are one thing but out right disregard is just not acceptable at any level.

With rank point scoring at regional or above it could effect the outcome of the match in another category.

I hope that everyone soon goes to Stage Point scoring so that "letting someone slide this time" doesn't effect the outcome of the whole match.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I would ask for the PM to be changed. For the "it's only a game" crowd I would say you're right. It is a game. A game with rules and not following the rules is called CHEATING.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

go to the MD, if it doesn't work, the Book says to vote with your feet. A shooter of your stature leaving a shoot should speak volumes...

 

NO, I've never walked out of a match, but then I've never seen what you've mentioned at that level either...

[Hoss]

I was a a 2 day annual shoot last year. Shooter staged hs rifle with the hammer back. I was not a spotter, but I pointed it out to PM. He reached over and lowered the hammer. No call was made. The shooter in question was a middle of the pack shooter, so would not have cost him anything. It bothered me. I decided if I ever see that again I will say more loudy, "hammer back, stage DQ". I hate to call a penalty on anybody, but rules is rules. Or as my hero Red Foreman would say "rules are what separates us from the animals. If not for rules we would all be sitting in trees flinging crap at each other"!

[Tumblin Tom]

I for one believe that the rules need to be followed. If you have new shooters and you don't enforce the rules they will have a hard time going to bigger shoots and the problem comes up and they get the real call. At our monthly match we call it by the book. Then explain it to the shooter. We have a lot of new shooters in our club that have never even had an RO course. But by doing it this way they accept it and then continue shooting. If they do something that would call for a match DQ. we call it but let them keep on shooting the match they travel to far sometime for just a monthly match and it is a learning experience. No one gets sent home for making a mistake we are here to teach and have fun. That's what I believe SASS is all about and to keep our future growing.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I hope I'm never at a match that has a TO doin' stunts like that...

I might let it go once... Maybe twice...

Now I've been penalized fer following our SASS rules..

That's just not right...

I've (also) never left a match in the middle...

I'm a middle of the pack shooter.. I wouldn't be noticed...

But..

The rest of the posse's and the Match Director would sure know....

Just ain't right...

 

Rance

Thinkin' I've never been in that situation..

but.. I voted with my feet at one annual and won't be back there because of calls not being made..

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

Being a match director, and I found out that one of my TO/PM was doing that; that person would never hold a timer again at my club !! The only fair way to play this "game" is to apply all the rules ( whether we agree with that rule or not ) to everyone, whether they be a "top gun" or at the bottom of the pack. And yes, I've been called a hard ass for doing it this way, but we can't pick and choice when a rule gets applied and to whom. I also believe this applies to all matches, monthlies too.

Shooters on that posse should have taken this issue to the match director immediately.

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

It's just a game for me. I respect that it's a sport, and in some cases an obsessive compulsive disorder, for a lot of you.

However, I do like clarity and uniformity. I'm with Stan. There are occasions for the benefit of the doubt going to the shooter but not blatant disregard of rules.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Match Directors have a tough enough job without having to deal with bad Posse Marshals.

But they should know the Posse Marshals before they assign them to the job. So they do get some of the blame.

If you go by the rules then it is easy to be fair to everyone. As soon as you start writing your own rules then the whole match goes to hell in a hand basket. And shooters leave with a bad taste in their mouths.

It always amazes me when I go out of town and I see shooters with VERY high belly buttons, hiking boots, holsters at 45 degrees, and 2 holsters on one side of the body and Shady Brady hats, that someone hasn't said something to them prior to my arrival on the scene.

Posse Marshals that "go easy" on the new shooters or the old timers at annual matches are not doing their job and should be replaced.

I was a Posse Marshal at a Regional Match and asked the B-Western and Classic Cowboys to come to the front with their guns so they could be "checked". I heard a comment from a lady shooter in the back, "What is he doing that for".

I was glad to hear the response from a gentleman near her, "Because he is suppose to".

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

Your at an annual or above match. You're on a posse with new folks and a middle of the pack shooter has a high primer that locks up their pistol after firing shots down range. The Posse Marshal says "let's giv'em a reshoot". It's pointed out that SASS rules don't allow for that and the MD should be consulted. PM ignores that and suggests we are just playing a game. Then later on PM overrules spotters on a misses. "It was close enough on the clay in a stand. They hit the stand. I'm calling it a hit. This is only a game. " PM then opens a closed double and since it was empty called a "no call because they changed that rule".

 

What would you do?

 

I keep hearing this phrase "it's only a game" as justification for not following the rules or "it won't hurt anything that's a middle of the pack shooter they aren't going to win anyways. "

 

How do you know that there isn't a middle of the pack shooter on another posse that picks up just enough rank points to keep them out ribbons because a reshoot was granted when it wasn't deserved or a call wasn't made when it should have been?

 

Our sport has rules. They need to be followed....all of them and not just the ones you agree with. If you apply your set of rules then you are penalizing everyone else. What gives you the right to affect their "fun"?

 

Stan

I agree with you but I don't know the solution. Other than voting with your feet and pass the word.

[Blackey Cole]

Anyone who knows me would know that my scooter would be flagging down the md if not the first time defiantly the second time. And if the md didn't enforce the rules I probably not return . I've seen a top shooter get a reshoot at a regional because they call that they were fouled by someone standing in their view of the next shooting position but no physical contact was made. The to was their spouse and said they have extraordinary perififeral vision. The spotter did the same thing for all the other shooters an moved before they arrived also. It was the only location on that side to see to spot. I do not recall if they did better or not I don't think they did. But I wasn't shocked by it. I figured something would happen during the match it always does.

 

If I would have been feeling better I probably would have went looking for the md then but no one else seemed to care.

[Dewey Cheatem, SASS #75620]

The MD needed to be told. If nothing was done at that point it would be the last time I shot there and people would be told. It is just a game but rules are made to be followed. If there are no rules then it would be a free for all with major safety concerns.

I had a PM override me at a BIG match about a procedural. It was a top shooter. He went first on freshly painted targets. Only 9 marks out of 10 shots. I saw no hit no splatter no sound. Even the shooter knew he missed and the PM said no P. It is the last time I ever shot with him and I have had to ask to moved from his posse since then with never a question.

It's sad that some people can't follow simple rules. It is a game but integrity should come first and your name is all you have in life. I don't want to be known as a person who will cheat or not make the right call. I don't know every rule by heart but if I don't know I will hand off timer and find someone that does.

 

DC

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Stan,

 

ifn you don't mind, can I add into your thread.....

 

what if during all of this type situation (annual and above type match) the shooters score had already been recorded and initialed?

 

How much time would have to be involved before the MD can make appropriate corrections.

 

AND.....just how much input from the PNut Gallery can the MD accept? Remember, the PNut gallery (those not involved like the TO/Spotters) basically has no say-so on calls made on the firing line.

 

 

..........Widder

[Anvil Al #59168]

Yep. Time to talk with the MD. Get things corrected.

 

MD needs to know to not only correct it. But to have a talk with the PM about SASS rules needing to

be followed. And maybe make sure they don't use them as a PM at the next one.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

I would ask for the PM to be changed. For the "it's only a game" crowd I would say you're right. It is a game. A game with rules and not following the rules is called CHEATING.

+ 1

Nawlins

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Your examples, while I'm sure they are accurate, are easy to resolve, as all the others have said. The calls that are the hardest are the ones where the PM likes or is intimidated by the shooter who missed and or had the problem and won't back you up when you call out the issue. Of course, it doesn't help when other posse members, who saw the miss, mistake, etc. don't want to get involved because "it's only a game". I've seen a number of those over the years, and it doesn't change.

[Cypress Sun]

I would ask for the PM to be changed. For the "it's only a game" crowd I would say you're right. It is a game. A game with rules and not following the rules is called CHEATING.

 

LEP is correct. Whether you call it a game or sport.........both have rules.

 

I'd track down the MD and tell him what's going on. If the MD refuses to correct the situation, it's time to walk. A PM such as this should not be permitted to run posse's again unless he/she corrects their behaviour. A MD who refuses to do anything about it should be voted out or impeached by the club.

 

Most everyone has been to a match that had stuff like this go on. No matter what the match (monthly or world) every shooter deserves a fair shake. When one posse doesn't follow the rules, stage conventions and stage descriptions.............no one gets a fair shake.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Notify the match director. The PM is penalizing all those following the rules.

+1

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

Tell MD, if he can't/won't resolve the issue, I'd probably walk. Without the rules we've got nothing.

[Hikes Point Hank]

Discuss this with the MD to find out if its a common problem and if its going to be allowed to continue. If so, vote with your feet. Not worth the aggravation. Whats the rest of the posse think. Strength in numbers and bad habits are hard to break.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Your examples, while I'm sure they are accurate, are easy to resolve, as all the others have said. The calls that are the hardest are the ones where the PM likes or is intimidated by the shooter who missed and or had the problem and won't back you up when you call out the issue. Of course, it doesn't help when other posse members, who saw the miss, mistake, etc. don't want to get involved because "it's only a game". I've seen a number of those over the years, and it doesn't change.

+1 and also when a MD doesn't want to discuss it. MT

[Waimea]

Stan

 

Not sure where you are shooting but as a middle of the pack shooter if I have a miss, or procedural or (choke) SDQ,

the punishment comes HARD and SWIFT.

 

I have seen some confused spotters when a really fast shooter starts doing his/her stuff.

 

Hope I never have to vote with my feet.

 

See you Saturday. Bringing some extra ammo.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Blastmaster]

For the PM/TO/relief_TO/buddy spotters/ vocal_fence_spotters/ and all other characters of questionable character that is practicing a variety of 'cheating',,,, or just a ill-informed pard that doesn't have a good understanding of the rules, and calls (or doesn't) a penalty. About the only thing you can do is point out your opinion, and only if you are in a position of authority (spotter, TO, and such),,,, or at least that is the code I go by... If I am not in a spotter or TO, then I feel I have no business interfering,, just like I dislike unsolicited advice from the peanut gallery.

 

You could go crying to the MD who is probably worn to a frazzle and put him in the position of either believing you or the PM or the TO. Yes he can go down to the stage and quiz all concerned, then try to make the call in which Someone will have hurt feelings of which the complainer already is. Probably the PM is a good buddy of the Match Officials and his weight carries a bit further than an unknown.

 

What to do? Depends on how much it bothers you,, Vote with your feet is the ultimate sacrifice if which no one else will really care and the wagon train will just move on down the trail without you. But you will know. Lastly, you will eventually see the same cheaters at another shoot.

 

Edit: I agree, when a very poor and blatent call is/not made, someone else(s), on a different posse is most likely losing the potential to place higher, and they don't even know it. Even the middle to bottom pac shoothers have pride. Of course there are calls that are made with upmost heart compassion & spirit, but it falls into the bug/windshield catagory.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Discuss this with the MD to find out if its a common problem and if its going to be allowed to continue. If so, vote with your feet. Not worth the aggravation. Whats the rest of the posse think. Strength in numbers and bad habits are hard to break.

+1

 

 

You have to make the MD aware of the situation and give him a chance to rectify it. If he doesn't do that then voting with your feet is certainly an option.

[Shorty Jack Hammer]

I agree that it is a game for fun, meaning that any experience/ proficiency level shooter can come out and have fun shooting, whether they are trying to win, or even care....that being said the rules should still always be followed. Ive never been at a shoot where anyone who made a mistake was ever given an "actual" hard time about it ( other than the good natured ribbing), so following the rules shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings, and it promotes consistency and fairness for all.

[River Banks]

Question- "What would you do ?"

 

If it was in Florida, probably sit down with a guy named Three-nut, drop a cork and talk about it until 4:30 in the morning in the lobby of hotel, and then shoot day two.

( it's an inside joke.)

 

Stan,

Your scenario has a multitude of consequences, as you and most know. Cowboy Action Shooting, whether we call it a game or a sport, is a competition.

We have rules in order to facilitate fair competition, whether it be for best dressed or top shooter. These rules insure the integrity of the game.

Integrity is the foundation of our game. Most importantly, all fellow society members should be treated with the same integrity and respect deserving of an honest person.

 

The fact is there will always be a person in 1st place and someone in last, and a whole lot in between. Of course, those standings are all subject to change, next time, as a result of

each individuals actions. I truly believe every participant is a competitor, and knows it, and is to be treated with the same equal regard. I think of the person who comes in dead last but

has a smile on his or her face and I wonder if they are thinking- it can only get better from here. I know it when they show up at the next match ready to shoot.

I figure that's just one thing that makes this gamey sport so much damn fun, not to mention the family of friends we enjoy because of it.

 

Now as far as your PM, whether fact or fiction, he/she did not serve anyone well and I expect at least 99% know this.

I hope these described actions were because of ignorance, not because of authority complex. The latter is a problem that probably doesn't happen like a common cold.

Ignorance can be innocent and fixed, maybe.

 

Lets just say he/she was just being "nice". Okay, nice is when you make the right call and politely inform the shooter of the infraction, if any, made during the course of his stage.

Usually the shooter knows it anyway, at least 99% of the time, especially when the pistol locks up halfway through the string.

Unfortunately , the shooter made a mistake during the course of the game and the rules say it will cost such and such. The penalty was earned- not given- and assessed according to rule.

Shooter shoots and posse officials witness and record match scores. Every shooter is bound by the same rules, hence it is called a game by definition.

The perfect match is when everyone shoots a perfect match and that would be nice but never going to happen. Penalties have value equal to success in the outcome of any game.

Its nice to have rules, that's what makes it a game. If we start enforcing rules contrary to the spirit of the game we are skirting politics and that ain't nice.

 

 

 

Okay not so nice, rule-bending PM/TO says (to fun lovin, gun shootin, rule abiding, cowboy shooter who has consistently worked up from 85th place to 40th place over the past year and has just left a hull in his 97 on stage 9)

get over it, and by the way I gave Jimmy a reshoot when that happened to him on the last stage.... no wood for you because I think Jimmy will get it instead.

Have a good day and aren't you and Jimmy shooting in the same class, its only a game....hellfire. Hey, let's keep this between us and our posse because I think the other posses are playing

by the rules and if this gets out it will probably get on the wire. What's that, I don't care what you say, Jimmy's pretty happy....next shooter please and lower that hammer on your pistol and hurry up!

Spotters you can take lunch, I got this.

 

One of the many great things about this great game we play is the people we do it with.

The 1% tends not to hang around long.

 

RB

[Frenchy Cannuck]

At a monthly, annual or other, we start by stating that all SASS rules apply.

End of story.

 

Frenchy

[DocWard]

Even though I've been around the forum for a long time, I haven't shot CAS much, so I still consider myself a new shooter to the game.

 

When I read the OP, the first thing that went through my mind was "remind me to never play Monopoly with that guy (the PM)." Perhaps his heart is in the right place, wanting to make the experience enjoyable for new shooters to keep them coming back, but his head is certainly not. We often see rules modified for young athletes, take T-Ball for example, but those rules are still understood by everyone beforehand, and applied evenly across the board. If I were to asked to play flag football or something of the nature, I wouldn't expect any rules modifications in my favor based on my age and the like, I would assume they expect me to play to the best of my ability and leave it at that.

 

At the first shoot I went to, everything went smoothly, with no real hiccups, other being slow and missing more than I would like. At my second shoot, I got a P on an early stage. No big deal, but the good thing was the TO, I believe it was, took the time to explain why it was a P (out of sequence), how I could have done it differently, and we moved on. I learned a lesson, and hopefully grew as a shooter. To me, that is what it is all about, growing as a shooter, getting better, and since I won't challenge other shooters for top honors, challenge myself. Part of that is seeing how I stack up-both against my previous performances and compared to other shooters. I can't do that if someone allows an infraction to slide.