Horror Stories at RO1 Class

[Cholla]

I went through the RO1 class today and was told some horror stories of scams that others have pulled on their fellow shooters.

 

1. Cover the pickup on the timer for the last few shots for family and friends to shorten their time.

 

2. Carry a pocket of empty cases while acting as an unloading table officer and act as though a case was just ejected from the rifle so that the shooter gets penalized.

 

3. Cocking the hammer as the pistol is drawn from the holster.

 

I am sure there are other stories. It saddens me that people would do such things to win. It would be a hollow victory to win in this manner.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

39 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I went through the RO1 class today and was told some horror stories of scams that others have pulled on their fellow shooters.

 

1. Cover the pickup on the timer for the last few shots for family and friends to shorten their time.

Another one I've heard of is tapping a shirt/vest button or belt buckle with the timer while "covering the mike" after the last shot was fired to add time.

 

2. Carry a pocket of empty cases while acting as an unloading table officer and act as though a case was just ejected from the rifle so that the shooter gets penalized.

Never heard of that one.

 

3. Cocking the hammer as the pistol is drawn from the holster.

That's a listed MSV:

- When drawing a Revolver from its holster, the revolver may not be cocked until it is pointed safely downrange (at a 45° angle downrange). p.14

- Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range. p.22

 

I am sure there are other stories. It saddens me that people would do such things to win. It would be a hollow victory to win in this manner.

 

Anyone caught pulling any of those stunts (#s 1 & 2) i.e CHEATING deserves the MDQ for "UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT" p.23

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 hours ago, Cholla said:

I went through the RO1 class today and was told some horror stories of scams that others have pulled on their fellow shooters.

 

1. Cover the pickup on the timer for the last few shots for family and friends to shorten their time.

 

2. Carry a pocket of empty cases while acting as an unloading table officer and act as though a case was just ejected from the rifle so that the shooter gets penalized.

 

3. Cocking the hammer as the pistol is drawn from the holster.

 

I am sure there are other stories. It saddens me that people would do such things to win. It would be a hollow victory to win in this manner.

Sure glad I don’t shoot wherever this class was held. I’ve never seen 1., though I’ve heard of people doing that. Never seen or heard of 2, doubt anyone would be bold enough to try that.

 

3 I’ve seen. Not sure I would call that ‘cheating’ more like not knowing the rules, though I guess it could be deliberate.

[Barry Sloe]

I've also seen a specific TO when timing friends or family that are not having a good stage "interfere" with the shooter so they get a reshoot.  It's a hard one to prove, but it happens frequently with this TO.

I've heard of #1 happening, those involved were banned from certain clubs for awhile. 

It's a game.  Nobody should need to cheat.

 

BS

[Flying W Ramrod]

I was the one relating the "horror stories".
Yes, they happened, including the one mentioned by PWB (happened to me).
All these, except the cocking, were dealt with by MDQ's and banning from the clubs.

These are just a few of the lengths some will go to just to win the caddilac.

The "pocket full of brass, got caught when a .45 brass was in a .38 rifle. UTO was observed doing it, to my wife, and was taken off UTO duties and the MD was informed.

Timer silencers were banned from TOing.

Timer thumper was called out and shooters request a different TO when he's on the posse.

Ahh, good times.

[Texas Jack Black]

 Sad indeed but not surprising.

[KingSnake]

Don’t forget about the fast shooter that only loads nine in the rifle instead of ten. I’ve seen that twice. 

[Sedalia Dave]

12 minutes ago, KingSnake said:

Don’t forget about the fast shooter that only loads nine in the rifle instead of ten. I’ve seen that twice. 

 

As a TO I count the number of rounds fired from each gun. Spotters should also be doing this.

 

As a MD if I was informed that this was occuring that individual would earn a MDQ. 

 

 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

17 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

As a MD if I was informed that this was occuring that individual would earn a MDQ. 

I have seen things like that occurring, but who do you believe, the shooter or the reporting individual?  Especially difficult if the shooter is well known and no one backs up the reporting individual because they "don't want to get involved".

[Texas Jack Black]

14 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

I have seen things like that occurring, but who do you believe, the shooter or the reporting individual?  Especially difficult if the shooter is well known and no one backs up the reporting individual because they "don't want to get involved".

 Remember benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

8 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Remember benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

 

Once is an accident, twice is suspicious, 3 times is intentional.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

54 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

but who do you believe, the shooter or the reporting individual? 

 

The issuance of the penalty is the responsibility of the Timer Operator (or Posse Marshal, especially if it is a TO who is the suspected offender).   The "penalty issuer" does need to have seen it happen, in my experience.  Even strong circumstantial evidence is sometimes not enough when the penalty goes into the Appeal process and no one in that chain saw it either.     Often, all a TO or Posse Marshal can do with a "first report" is to watch the suspect (or their friends) very closely for the rest of the match. 

 

Big-Match Match Directors need to CAREFULLY choose Posse Marshals  with the plan for PMs to also carefully choose TOs that work well and know and follow the rules.

 

Had this happen with a TO who restarted his wife SEVERAL times due to "poor stage start" with shotgun.  (Yes, he insisted that HE had to time for his wife, although we offered several other experienced TOs to do that)  As PM, I required he only give no more than 2 fumble-restarts for any shooter, then he was to require the shooter to continue with stage and live with the results.  That, plus that TO overruling the miss counts reported by spotters and giving his family members fewer misses, earned him a MDQ.  Fortunately, they never showed up again.

 

good luck, GJ

[Texas Jack Black]

4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Once is an accident, twice is suspicious, 3 times is intentional.

 Quite true 

 

 

[Texas Jack Black]

3 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

The issuance of the penalty is the responsibility of the Timer Operator (or Posse Marshal, especially if it is a TO who is the suspected offender).   The "penalty issuer" does need to have seen it happen, in my experience.  Even strong circumstantial evidence is sometimes not enough when the penalty goes into the Appeal process and no one in that chain saw it either.     Often, all a TO or Posse Marshal can do with a "first report" is to watch the suspect (or their friends) very closely for the rest of the match. 

 

Had this happen with a TO who restarted his wife SEVERAL times due to "poor stage start" with shotgun.  (Yes, he insisted that HE had to time for his wife, although we offered several other experienced TOs to do that)  As PM, I required he only give no more than 2 fumble-restarts for any shooter, then he was to require the shooter to continue with stage and live with the results.  That, plus overruling the miss counts reported by spotters and giving his family members fewer misses, earned him a MDQ.  Fortunately, they never showed up again.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 So why is all this  just being allowed to be talked about? Years ago if this was brought up you would be hounded off the wire by a few well known very good shooters.

 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I suspected the time stunt at a shoot once and pointed it out to some fellow shooters that I trust.  He was quite polished with his slight of hand trick. Then the timer dropped a loaded pistol when on the line and he was  done for the match.  He was approached on the topic, denied and I have never seen him at another shoot since.  Very sad indeed.

 

We live in a win at all cost society and it is apparent in all that we do everyday.  We people conspire to fabricate a win I can only wish that life gives them a match DQ.  I recommend that all of us play close attention because the 1% that do this need to be culled from the sport.  Always know that 99% of CAS are righteous and honest. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

9 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Remember benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

If there is no doubt there is no benefit.

 

In the case of intentional "short loading", the shooter would be relying on a number of system failures.
REF: SHB p.21 (Spotters/Counters & Loading Table Officer)
........ RO1 p.25-26 (Timer Operator & Spotters)

........ RO2 p.7  (The Course of Fire)

 

... not to mention only finding 9 pieces of brass.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

FWIW...regarding excessive "fortuitous" reshoots for RO interference, there is a "LIST" of shooters who are not allowed to be on the same posse, as well as known "trouble makers". Many match officials are aware of those (very few) individuals who bear a bit closer observation due to previous "incidents".
Fortunately, most of those from the past no longer participate in the game.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

 True, but it does take place. Aging spotters ,family or friends timing and at many matches no loading officer and at unloading tables a lot of not paying attention.

  The rules are meaningless if not enforced and  if qualified spotters and ROs are not available. IMHO

 

Best Wishes

[Captain Clark]

56 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

I have seen things like that occurring, but who do you believe, the shooter or the reporting individual?  Especially difficult if the shooter is well known and no one backs up the reporting individual because they "don't want to get involved".

At EOT I was TOing a very competitive shooter that was at the time challenging for #1 in his category when he experienced the proverbial “ train wreck”. It was unfortunate but happened. The shooter was definitely rattled but dignified when he signed off on the time considering his dilemma. Imagine my surprise when much later that day my posse Marshall and scoring officials tracked me down for further discussion as the shooter had protested the officiating and time posted for that particular stage. The co- match directors listened to mine and posse Marshall’s recollection of the event and backed me up as having made the correct call! The MDs did that right thing no matter the notoriety of the shooter and the lack of mine. The experience served me well a couple years later when having to handle a similar issue as the state match director. TOs aren’t always going to be perfect but MDs have to choose PMs carefully and support their decisions based on facts, regardless of the shooters abilities! 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

a major match: shooter from two possees away shows up to empty his pistols,, said his unloading table was too full...  reported him to match officials,  SDQ,,, 

[Cypress Sun]

Just now, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

a major match: shooter from two possees away shows up to empty his pistols,, said his unloading table was too full...  reported him to match officials,  SDQ,,, 

 

I've seen many types of cheating over the 26 years of shooting CAS, including this type. I've seen it at the loading table also, a shooter UNLOADING his pistol from the previous stage. I've always given them the option of reporting it to the PM before the end of the stage...or I will. They've always done it themselves but sometimes it's been close.

 

Over the years, I've gained a lot of respect for some people and others that I wouldn't trust to tell me that water is wet...some well known and others not so well known.

 

I don't know who said it but "It takes years to build a good reputation but just a minute to ruin it".

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

10 hours ago, Cholla said:

I went through the RO1 class today and was told some horror stories of scams that others have pulled on their fellow shooters.

 

1. Cover the pickup on the timer for the last few shots for family and friends to shorten their time.

 

2. Carry a pocket of empty cases while acting as an unloading table officer and act as though a case was just ejected from the rifle so that the shooter gets penalized.

 

3. Cocking the hammer as the pistol is drawn from the holster.

 

I am sure there are other stories. It saddens me that people would do such things to win. It would be a hollow victory to win in this manner.

 

A fellow who did this and then had a discharge that creased the outside of his calf muscle.  He related the pain he endured in the emergency room while doctors scrubbed lead fragments out of the wound.  Enough said.

 

Timing fraud was discovered in USPSA and was discussed in this article.

[Texas Jack Black]

  I love this game and it saddens me to watch what has and is still taking place  only at a faster pace. Maybe bringing these issues to the forefront will help save the game .

 

Best Wishes

[Texas Maverick]

2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

As a TO I count the number of rounds fired from each gun. Spotters should also be doing this.

 

As a MD if I was informed that this was occuring that individual would earn a MDQ. 

 

 

I agree, As a spotter I count every round and even make a point to remember which shot I believe was a miss so if the shooter asks I can tell which one. Not many ask but I like to know for myself that I am paying very close attention and focused on the shooting and only call misses that I 100% believe was a miss. I don't like having spotters that are too busy talking and not paying attention and then have the gall to call a miss when their attention was not on the shooting.

 

TM

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Remember benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Not necessarily!!

Earlier this year at an annual before we even started shooting our posse marshal said: BE NICE! BE NICE! Give the shooter the benefit of a doubt!

However that didn’t apply to ME the second stage of the match when he gave me a P for not doing something that WASN’T in the stage instructions!! Match officials backed him. That’s why I no longer shoot with him or at that club!!

PS: Palewolf agreed with me about there being no P!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

The problem with all human activity is that there are humans involved.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

A number of years ago, I was timing a fast veteran shooter at an annual match.  He had several misses and a procedural at the 1st shooting position.  As he was moving to the next shooting position, he did his absolute best to run into me so he could get a reshoot. He actually chased me backwards about 5 feet.  It was very obvious and intentional.  Fortunately, I was fast on the feet and was able to avoid contact.  He ended up getting his penalties with no reshoot but I never forgot that lesson and it forever shaped my opinion of that shooter.

[Griff]

Quite a number of rules or conventions in this game are from folks that were maybe not out and out cheaters, but... pushed the envelope beyond the limits of most folks patience.  The rule about "owning the stage" after the first shot downrange came about in this fashion.  As was the "single projectile" rule.  Oh, if you could only have seen the egregious variations in timer manipulation when we used stopwatches!  Larsen hit the nail on the head!  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

We surely can do better.  After all, we are here for fun.  I can't imagine wearing a buckle that I know I cheated to win.  Truth is, if a buckle is all that matters, I can just go online and buy one much more cheaply than the cost to shoot a match.  Few except me will ever notice --  or care. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

The way that I look at it, if you have to cheat or even blur the lines between cheating on not cheating, you have to live with yourself and I feel sorry for you. Yes, I get frustrated when I see it, yes, its wrong; but sometimes they do get away with it either because is wasn't caught or folks don't want to call a fast and/or popular shooter on what they did. If winning at our game means that much to you, take the win and live with yourself. It all comes out in the wash. 

[Stump Water]

A "competitive" shooter shot the rifle, discarded it on the table, then started to the next position.  As the TO passed the rifle he reached down and closed the lever.

[Eyesa Horg]

20 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

A "competitive" shooter shot the rifle, discarded it on the table, then started to the next position.  As the TO passed the rifle he reached down and closed the lever.

Seriously !!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

32 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

A "competitive" shooter shot the rifle, discarded it on the table, then started to the next position.  As the TO passed the rifle he reached down and closed the lever.

 

Why?

[Hoss]

I had a train wreck on a stage at a regional match one year. Got the trifecta (M, P, MSV) plus a bunch of time lost trying to fix rifle. As I finished TO gave me the bad news. I jokenly told him “ you could have tripped me or something”.  He replied “sorry”. I realized he thought I was serious.  Had never shot with him before, so he did not know me. I later talked to him and told him I was only kidding. I hope he believed me! 
 

I’ve seen a couple of cheaters. Hard to prove, but in my mind I knew what I knew.  Never forgot, and avoid shooting with them. 
 

The day I cheat to win is the day I’ll hang up my guns. 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Why?

 

Maybe back when a closed lever meant +10 seconds?