Cartridges bigger than .45-70.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

There are cartridges out there in our game that are bigger than .45-70.  I know from personal experience that .45-70 can be a nasty shoulder thumper, but that with the right powder/bullet combination, it can be "downloaded" to become a very pleasant shooter without losing its long range ability.  

But when I think of those "bigger" cartridges, be they .45's with more powder, or .50's, I just find myself thinking that they can't be anything but recoil monsters.  And I also know that excessive recoil causes me to start to flinch after just a few rounds.
 

Now, I know that the Spencer round is no big deal.   I've never fired one, but I assume .50-70 can be made to be manageable as well.  But what about some of those really big buffalo and/or so called "express" rounds?  Are they rather punishing to shoot?  Can they be downloaded, but if they are, are you in "what's the point," territory?   I mean, isn't a downloaded .45-95 just a long cased .45-70?   

I am curious to know what experience with these things are.   Part of the reason is that that I have a nephew who for some reason wants a .50-110 86.  (I think that's the round.)  He's not a Cowboy shooter, yet, but I am wondering if he's just gonna hurt himself.   I have suggested a 76 in 50-95 as still big not not as nasty, but that's also an assumption on my part.   

 

At this time, he's saying he wants to go smokeless, and is not interested in black powder.

So if anyone knows anything, please let me know.    Cuz when all is said and done, I don't really know anything about those big fellows.
 

[La Sombra]

HK,

 

Wow! What a topic with a lot of answers.

 

I have 2 50-70's (Rolling Block and Trapdoor featured in my post on finding 50-70 brass), A Martini Henry in 577/450 and an Snider-Enfield in 577 Snider. The felt recoil in the first three rifles is not all that punishing (64 YO overweight guy), . The loads on the 50-70s is 55 grn 2FF APP with a 460 gr bullet. The Martini has 58 grn 2FF APP with a 475 grn bullet. The Snider has about 40 grn 2FF APP with a 525 grn Minie Ball. The Snider kicks my a$$ after about 5 rounds. (For the record, all of these rifles are all in original shape with the original steel butt pads and no padding.) Reason: The Snider is lighter than the other rifles. Recoil is offset by the weight of the gun.  I do not feel that the rounds are underloaded or the bullet weights too light or heavy. My non-scientific answer.

 

The 50-110 in an 1886 with a long barrel should be very manageable. He can always add a mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock. They too help with the felt recoil.

 

I'll have an answer for you on the 50-95 next week when I go out to fire the new gun. (Uberti 1876 in 50-95 28" barrel)

 

Hope that helps.

La Sombra

[Griff]

I can only speak to my .40-90SBN Express... but as a general rule, as bullet weight goes up, so does recoil.  The only exception is when the powder charge is dropped to compensate.  30 years ago when I shot BPCRS, an 80 to 120 round match didn't bother me much with 370 grain bullets and 90 grains of BP, (2F, about all that will fit in the case)... with a muzzle velocity of 1590 ave., it was fine, seated, standing, but prone... you know you've slung some lead downrange after sighters & a 10 shot string.  Now, 30 years later... no thanks, you won't see me shooting prone at all.  Even off a bench, it can be brutal after several rounds.  Downloaded... no thank you, in my case any filler is not recommended in a bottle neck case, as they can create an obstruction behind the neck and my Shiloh will become so much scrap metal, not to mention probably bad for my health.  Even with smokeless, powder positioning can make a big difference in performance.  There isn't any published smokeless data that I've found anywhere for this round.  I've been able to duplicate my BP performance with 5744 using .45-70 data as recommended by Shiloh when I took delivery of the rifle back in 1987.  Frankly, I can't think of a reason I'd ever want more cartridge than a .45-70 in my 1886 Browning rifle.  

[J.D. Daily]

If he lives in a state like CA which has a 50 caliber ban he can't buy or transfer a 50-110 through an FFL.  Also the recoil will be worse with smokeless powder; because it generates gas faster than real black or subs.  Faster burning produces higher acceleration of the bullet which means more recoil. Newtonian physics: Force Equal Mass times Acceleration also For Every Reaction There Is An Equal & Opposite Reaction.  As stated by others the heavier (mass) the firearm the lower the recoil force. 

[Trailrider #896]

The .50-110 was designed to be an Express round, i.e., using a lighter bullet, 350 gr. at a higher MV with BP.  In the '86, the rifling twist was slower than the twist in the .50-100-450 (IIRC about the bullet weight). The problem with the Express rounds is the lighter bullet slows down quicker than a heavier bullet.  Never owned one, but probably can be downloaded with smokeless.  Neck the .50-110 case down to .348 and you will get thumped with sharper recoil. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Good luck finding brass, bullets and dies. 

That's a BP round. 

Let me guess, he has yet to fire one. 

[Sedalia Dave]

As other stated those are Express rounds. The rate of twist in the barrel will be optimized for those loads.  Downloading will cause poor performance because the bullet will not stabilize.

 

Smokeless load data is going to be awfully hard to come by. Those giant cases were designed to hold massive amounts of BP not modern smokeless powder

 

Brass will border on Unobtanium.  Custom moulds and casting your own is likely the only way to obtain bullets.

[Horace Patootie, SASS #35798]

I have a Rolling Block in 50-140 but haven't shot it in a while.

Horace

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

My nephew is active duty USMC, based in San Diego.   He gets out in November. and will be leaving Kalifornia to return to the People's Republic of Massachusetts.   Oddly, while our pistol rules are worse than California's, our rifle rules, aside from "assault weapons" are not so bad.

I figured those big cartridges would all be roll your own, but I had not thought of brass being hard to find.  Considering how difficult to get .45-60 brass for my own 76, I shoulda thought of it.

He really wants a "powerful" gun.   Maybe I can convince his to go with .45-70 in a modern made '86 and develop "maximum" loads for use in that rifle.   That would still have a lot more oomph than the way I load the cartridge, everything must be Trapdoor safe for me.

An interesting aside is the .45-85-285, a Colt proprietary cartridge for use in their large frame Lightnings.   It was designated an express cartridge, and used the exact same case as the .45-70, but the light bullet had a much higher velocity, and the rifle twist was designed for that.   For that rifle, I load a 300 grain bullet instead of a .405 one, and it has good accuracy.

Anyway, all of this was extremely interesting.   Thank you for all the info, and if there is anything more to add, I look forward to it.

[Sedalia Dave]

Have him shoot a Ruger #1 or #3 with some Ruger only 45-70 loads. Those kill in one end and maim on the other.

 

Those rifles can push a 350 grain 45-70 bullet up past 2500 fps.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Ya know if he just wants to hurt his shoulder - I think I still have a lightweight Remington 700 in 338 Win Mag - that to this day is one of the nastiest rifles I have ever shot.

 

I would rather shoot my Barrett in 50BMG or my Ruger 77 in 458 Win Mag all day long as opposed to that 338.

 

I call certain gun two shot firearms.

Guns you shoot once in disbelief that it kicks that badly...

And then a second time just to make sure.

 

My Scandium 340pd Smith in 357 was another - after mistakenly putting rifle only 2000fps rounds in it.

[Buckshot Sheridan]

Stock fit has a huge influence on perceived recoil, and some people are just more sensitive to it as well. I personally find the short little 30-30 carbines to not be particularly pleasant due to the stock not fitting me worth a damn. On the other hand I shoot a sharps in 50-2 1/2 with 112gr of black under a 715gr bullet with no issues. I’ve run it up as high as 135gr of powder. I also have been known more than once to take a 375 H&H to shoot prairie dogs, but then again the stock fit well. 

[watab kid]

short answer - yes , but for our game your asking long range shooters questions  im not qualified to answer 

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

The stock fit does make a difference. I have a 45/ 70 load I like. Speer 400 gr flat point pushed by 52 grs 3031.

I have 2 Marlin 1895's. 1 pistol grip and 1 straight stock. The felt recoil is very different between the 2.

There Used to be a cowboy shooter there in new england, alias, Vittles. He also liked to shoot rifles with heavy recoil. He used to shoot a 458 Lott.

If his neck wasn't all bloodshot he thought something was wrong. Me, I don't want anything bigger than 45/70. properly loaded and proper bullet placement

it should be good for anything here in the lower 48.

 

 

i

[Grass Range]

I do not weigh  a lot compared to some shooters. Evidently weight takes up some recoil? I shoot 50-70s and a 50x140 sharps. Depends a lot on how many shots you will fire at one sitting. Whatever you do do not install one of the ugly rubber recoil pads on a fine rifle.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Bighorn Amory makes their Model 89 in 500 S&W which is pretty similar to a 50/70 looking at case dimensions. Ammo is available, last I knew brass was and there are lots of bullets in 0.500 out there. 

 

They found some "safe" loads (over book max) that were pushing 440gr bullets near 2200 fps from an 18" barrel. Book max is just over 2000 fps. Book max for 350gr bullets is just over 2200 fps. 

 

This would let him have something that is commonly available and easy to find while still one-upping the 45-70. 

 

https://www.bighornarmory.com/product/model-89-carbine-18-500-sw/

 

[Michigan Slim]

Starline has .50-110 brass in stock now.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

39 minutes ago, Michigan Slim said:

Starline has .50-110 brass in stock now.

What about a rifle? When I browsed around yesterday I couldn't find a rifle chambered in 50-110 for sale. Not even on Gunbroker. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

24 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

What about a rifle? When I browsed around yesterday I couldn't find a rifle chambered in 50-110 for sale. Not even on Gunbroker. 

 

My nephew is of the opinion that he'll have one custom made.   I think he said he was considering Turnbull.   He apparently has more money than he knows what to do with.

[La Sombra]

Turnbull? Wow, nice to have money like that.

 

Check out;

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1886/winchester-model-1886-caliber-50-110-express.cfm?gun_id=100797652

 

There are also components if you search for 50-110 there.

 

La Sombra

[Eyesa Horg]

Yikes

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I have a 45-90 and a 40-65 C Sharps in 1885 highwall.  Both are very, very accurate with BP and cast bullets.  The 40-65 is a pussy cat.  The 45-90 with a 535 nominal, 545 grain actual bullet and 85 grains of 2f is has a stout recoil.  At the end of a thousand yard match (approx 52 rounds) you know you have wrestled a tiger.  
 

My brother shot a 45-110 until he needed shoulder surgery.  The surgeon suggested he find another hobby.

 

YMMV

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:56 PM, J.D. Daily said:

If he lives in a state like CA which has a 50 caliber ban he can't buy or transfer a 50-110 through an FFL.  

 

California law does not ban all .50 caliber rifles, it only applies to the .50 BMG. 

 

Seamus

[Long Fingers, SASS#56813]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:07 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

He really wants a "powerful" gun.   Maybe I can convince his to go with .45-70 in a modern made '86 and develop "maximum" loads for use in that rifle. 

I loaded some modern (Marlin only) loads at just under max listing. 350 gn bullet at over 2000fps.  I loaded 10 rounds to try, let me know where you would like the other 8 sent. Recoil was brutal out of a marlin lever gun. I’m a big guy and don’t consider myself recoil sensitive, no thanks to anymore of those.  My point is if he wants big medicine he can probably get all he wants out of the 45-70 and still easily down load as needed. 
LF. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 hours ago, Seamus McGillicuddy said:

 

California law does not ban all .50 caliber rifles, it only applies to the .50 BMG. 

 

Seamus

Correct 

[Buckshot Sheridan]

People talk about the 45-70 likes it’s a big round. In all actuality it’s a pretty tame middleweight. The smallest cartridge in this picture is 45-70. The loaded round will almost fit entirely in the case of the one next to it. None of these are anything I would consider viscous as far as recoil goes. 

[Jasper Agate]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:16 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

There are cartridges out there in our game that are bigger than .45-70.  I know from personal experience that .45-70 can be a nasty shoulder thumper, but that with the right powder/bullet combination, it can be "downloaded" to become a very pleasant shooter without losing its long range ability.  

But when I think of those "bigger" cartridges, be they .45's with more powder, or .50's, I just find myself thinking that they can't be anything but recoil monsters.  And I also know that excessive recoil causes me to start to flinch after just a few rounds.
 

Now, I know that the Spencer round is no big deal.   I've never fired one, but I assume .50-70 can be made to be manageable as well.  But what about some of those really big buffalo and/or so called "express" rounds?  Are they rather punishing to shoot?  Can they be downloaded, but if they are, are you in "what's the point," territory?   I mean, isn't a downloaded .45-95 just a long cased .45-70?   

I am curious to know what experience with these things are.   Part of the reason is that that I have a nephew who for some reason wants a .50-110 86.  (I think that's the round.)  He's not a Cowboy shooter, yet, but I am wondering if he's just gonna hurt himself.   I have suggested a 76 in 50-95 as still big not not as nasty, but that's also an assumption on my part.   

 

At this time, he's saying he wants to go smokeless, and is not interested in black powder.

So if anyone knows anything, please let me know.    Cuz when all is said and done, I don't really know anything about those big fellows.
 

H.K.

 Hope you are well and greetings from Northern NV!

I don't know if you remember but I shoot both a 50/70 roller and a '86 in 50/100/450 both with a 480 grain bullet. Starline makes brass for both!! I have never loaded smokeless in either one and never will. That being said If I was to load smokeless I would shy away from the 50/110 and lean towards the 50/70 with its shorter case. I'm sure you could develop all the horse power you wanted with the 50/70 without the danger of double charging the larger case. If your nephew ends up going home through northern NV have him get a hold of me and he can try them both out!! I have a couple of other larger guns in the smokeless variety that have a pretty good kick to them that he could try as well.

                                                               Take care,

                                                                  Jasper

[Idaho Gunslinger]

53 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

People talk about the 45-70 likes it’s a big round. In all actuality it’s a pretty tame middleweight. The smallest cartridge in this picture is 45-70. The loaded round will almost fit entirely in the case of the one next to it. None of these are anything I would consider viscous as far as recoil goes. 

The recoil isn't considered viscious because those old black powder cartridges are pretty anemic compared to modern smokeless ones. Just look at any of the "elephant guns" out there. 

 

The 460 Weatherby pushes 500 gr bullets almost 2700 fps. 

The 500 A-Square will push 600gr bullets just over 2500 fps. 

The 50-110 load data shows 515gr bullets going almost 1600 fps with smokeless powder. 

 

I'm sure it's to keep from blowing up the lever action but the 50-110 isn't even in the same league as modern cartridges. Even the much shorter 500 Mag makes quite a bit more power than the 50-110. I'm sure with the right gun you can hotrod the 50-110 but you don't have to hotrod the modern cartridges at all to get there. 

 

 

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

Stocks that have a lot of drop like the Sharps 1874  Hartford and the Remington Sporting Model roller will kick the snot out of you off the bench.  They are better from off hand or sticks.   

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

3 hours ago, Long Fingers, SASS#56813 said:

I loaded some modern (Marlin only) loads at just under max listing. 350 gn bullet at over 2000fps.  I loaded 10 rounds to try, let me know where you would like the other 8 sent. Recoil was brutal out of a marlin lever gun. I’m a big guy and don’t consider myself recoil sensitive, no thanks to anymore of those.  My point is if he wants big medicine he can probably get all he wants out of the 45-70 and still easily down load as needed. 
LF. 

I loaded some 400’s to right around 2000 fps once. After firing  2, I pulled the bullets on the other 8. Some things ought not be shot from an 1895 Marlin Cowboy.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I have a Marlin Cowboy 45-70.  I've experimented a little not looking for anything close to max. With 405 gr I've topped out at 1500fps. Definitely no more then 1600. Wouldn't  want anymore then that. I've settled at about 1400fps.

[Tennessee Snuffy]

Jimmy Reb would you please provide a bit more information on  stock fit. What do you find absorbs the kick best and how to modify existing rifles.  Also what not to do.
 

thanks