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Hoss

leaving fired hull in shotgun. yea or nay?

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my vote would be no. keep rule as it is, shotgun staged open and empty.

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Agree.

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No-one every got hurt with a spent round in a firearm chamber. So in reality it is NOT a safety issue. So why have a safety penalty for something that is safe???

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8 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

No-one every got hurt with a spent round in a firearm chamber. So in reality it is NOT a safety issue. So why have a safety penalty for something that is safe???

At first look, from more than a couple feet away, cant see if its fired or unfired. 

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9 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

No-one every got hurt with a spent round in a firearm chamber. So in reality it is NOT a safety issue. So why have a safety penalty for something that is safe???

Agree with Happy Jack.

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I vote no call so long as it is cleared before moving to the unloading table, but then I've had issues with hulls under the extractor on stages that were already a disaster, so the extra time to clear the damn thing just added to misery...

 

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Open and empty is my vote. You can't tell from 5 feet away if it is a live shell or an empty hull. I've seen many a SxS shooter miss a target and load 2 more rounds to make up the miss and only fire one. If it ain't broke don't try and fix it.

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I vote "no call". If it is open, it is safe.

 

I always thought it was dumb that you will get called for having spent hulls in the chamber if you set it down, but you can carry it, running around all you want and walk to the unloading table that way. If it was really unsafe it would be bad to be moving with an unsafe gun. 

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I have to go with the no call as long as its cleared on the line before heading to ult.. I used to hunt with a shotgun, never did shoot a squirrel with an empty hull in the chamber lol

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So a double shooter doesn't even have to attempt to clear the gun.  Just shoot it and lay it down closed and move. 

Fire away!

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I vote for no call.  If the T.O. Can’t see it is a spent primer, then he is to far away.  Note—My eye doctor says a normal person with average vision should be able to see the difference between a fired primer and an unfired primer from at least 75 feet.  He also says he has never met a normal person with average vision!

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

At first look, from more than a couple feet away, cant see if its fired or unfired. 

 

But you CAN see the shell, right?  That means the action is open, right?  How's it going to fire with an open action?

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Current rules do not require that a shotgun be restaged OPEN...only that they be CLEARED/EMPTY.
The issue is whether to eliminate the
MSV for failure to clear all empties from the firearm:

 

Quote

 

- Shotguns will be cleared and discarded with their barrels pointing in a safe direction.  If the action closes after being cleared, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the CRO/TO.  No person other than the competitor may handle the gun prior to opening the action and showing it to be clear.

 

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Shotguns

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty

 

SHB p.15

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If the change is made where it doesn't have to be empty when discarded you stand the chance of a MSV if it closes with empties in it. Is it worth the chance? If it closes as the rules stand now and is empty, no call.

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16 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Current rules do not require that a shotgun be restaged OPEN...only that they be CLEARED/EMPTY.
The issue is whether to eliminate the
MSV for failure to clear all empties from the firearm:

Then I would say that it has to be open OR empty for it to be a no call. Closed with spent hulls or open with live shells should get a penalty. 

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32 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Current rules do not require that a shotgun be restaged OPEN...only that they be CLEARED/EMPTY.
The issue is whether to eliminate the
MSV for failure to clear all empties from the firearm:

 

SHB p.15

That’s what I meant, just didn’t say it very well! 

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Thanks for the clarification PWB, that puts things in a whole different perspective.  I agree with Chicken George on it, open OR empty. (Although much to Hell's Comin's chagrin, this would still favor SXS shooters a tad.)

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2 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

No-one every got hurt with a spent round in a firearm chamber. So in reality it is NOT a safety issue. So why have a safety penalty for something that is safe???

 

Maybe not, but plenty of people have been shot with guns they THOUGHT were empty. 

 

If I need to I can post some examples for you. 

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47 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

Thanks for the clarification PWB, that puts things in a whole different perspective.  I agree with Chicken George on it, open OR empty. (Although much to Hell's Comin's chagrin, this would still favor SXS shooters a tad.)

Oh i wondered who it would favor.

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

Thanks for the clarification PWB, that puts things in a whole different perspective.  I agree with Chicken George on it, open OR empty. (Although much to Hell's Comin's chagrin, this would still favor SXS shooters a tad.)

and 97 shooters,,, bang,,, throw it down... or 87,,,,

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I think the advantage of an SXS would be almost unnoticeable if you still had to open it. I think shooters wouldn't want to set it down without emptying it in case it accidentally closed (penalty) when a quick jerk on the way down would avoid that. Also, most shooters I know that shoot SXS, end with the shotgun whenever possible right now so those stages wouldnt be any different. 

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Leave the rule alone would be my vote, I think if a sXs shooter did not have to open & clear just lay down would be quite a advantage , I'm not sure if that's where this is headed

 

AO

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My take is open and empty. I joined SASS to shoot awesome antique style firearms with the funniest most amazing  people on this planet with only necessary rules. Why did you join SASS???

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IMHO, the shotgun should be either open with spent shells or empty.

 

Closed with spent shells or open with a live round would be a penalty...P or the MSV.

 

Live round in a closed action SDQ.

 

Something like this if vote for.

 

Phantom

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leave it be,,,

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I've seen some pretty interesting situations caused by shooters trying to clear a spent hull in an open action...pointing down range...shotgun.

 

Safety first!

 

Oy...

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

IMHO, the shotgun should be either open with spent shells or empty.

 

Closed with spent shells or open with a live round would be a penalty...P or the MSV.

 

Live round in a closed action SDQ.

 

Something like this if vote for.

 

Phantom

 Phantom makes a good point.  Plus, this would be good for '97 shooters too, as laying the open port down on a fired shell penalty would be negated.  An open shotgun and spent shell is not a safety issue.

 

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Empty, any hull "could" be live, some folks just plain move to fast to take the time to check it.    If it closes, then open show clear at the end of the stage, like it is now.  

 

 

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It definitely is not a safety issue.

 

Where I get frustrated with an empty shell standing up in a 97 is never going to be dangerous.  You cannot even close the action.

 

Similarly, if any empty is hanging half way out of a SxS, it would be pretty tough to close that action.  Of course, then you would have an empty cartridge in the gun - but that is still not dangerous.

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I always ask myself what is the result that folks are hoping for when changing a rule like this. This one is pretty obvious.......it's to avoid a penalty. Personally I am NOT in favor of any rule change that lessens shooters responsibility more than we already have. Fact is my 8 year understands the concept and abides by it when he is on a stage. Sorry but after 17 years and shooting across the country in hundreds of matches at every level I just don't see the heartburn. 

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3 hours ago, Marshal Dillon said:

My take is open and empty. I joined SASS to shoot awesome antique style firearms with the funniest most amazing  people on this planet with only necessary rules. Why did you join SASS???

 

I joined so I could be 11 again and play Cowboys and Indians . . . and this time with real guns!

 

 

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Everyone is pointing towards the SXS shooters, but I've seen 97s receive the same penalty for a fired hull.

And, what do you do with the 97 shooter that has a rifle cartridge land in the action??

My vote is for no call.  If there is a hull there it only takes a second to verify that it's fired. 

 

BS

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3 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Everyone is pointing towards the SXS shooters, but I've seen 97s receive the same penalty for a fired hull.

And, what do you do with the 97 shooter that has a rifle cartridge land in the action??

My vote is for no call.  If there is a hull there it only takes a second to verify that it's fired. 

 

BS

 

NOTHING ... That's a NO CALL.

 

Quote

 

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include:

- Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. 

 

SHB p.21

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We have to take some personal responsibility so I'd go with leave the rule the way it is' open & empty '

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