BJT Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I have some questions for folks that support the idea of a stock gun category? 1. Would there be a price limit? You can get anything stock for a price. 2. Would repairs be allowed? 3. What would be a repair? If a forcing cone is rough, could it be honed? How far out of spec would something have to be before it was a repair instead of a modification? 4. If repairs are allowed, how would you define the fitting required to replace parts? How would you define the source of the parts? Cheers, BJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 How do you define "stock?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I have a feeling "stock" Winchesters/Colts/Remingtons in 1800 and whatever were far more smoother than stock Ubertis in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Oh, heck.........that one is easy.........by NASCAR style rules.........aren't all them cars stock: Measurements by template before and after the match. Complete teardown after the match to insure compliance. An entire set of cerified officials to verify the official marks on all parts of the firearm are of the approved serial numbers associated with the gun. Have a $100.00 challenge clause, anyone wanting to dispute a questionalbe firearm may do so after posting the bond. Whoever wins has to put the gun back together. After all it could always be called SASSCAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 BJT: I was once told by a proponent of 'stock category' that if a gunsmith could have sanded it, filed it and/or honed it back in the 1800's AND ifn it WAS NOT a short stroked rifle or pistol, that it could possibly be considered 'stock' qualified. Sooooo, I ask about the Widdermatic and this person said; 'Sure, because the internal mod could be done using sand paper, files and honing stones". Seems like 'stock' takes on a whole new meaning depending on the person trying to define it. I like what Doc sed: 'How do you define 'stock'? Best regards ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Who is going to be the "stock police" and the "price police?? Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Harry, SASS #24924 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 This is a joke right? Ridiculous and impossible, unless you buy guns from random dealers and "issue" them at every match for those who want to shoot the class. Then when the same people win, you sell them at a discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Dirty Dan, No, they weren't. The were all you could get though. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Might as well use stock ammo too, no reloaded stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 These excellent questions have all been posed. But somehow the stock gun advocates still fail to understand how unenforceable such a category would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It really is quite simple. You merely have to shoot guns just like mine, in the exact manner I shoot mine.. Then you are good to go!!! :D It really is SO simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I guess I am missing something here.IS there a rule that you can not shoot stock guns.If you want to shoot stock guns then do it.If the fast guys shot stock guns they would still beat the slow guys.I love to see the fast guys shoot the slicked guns.I could have Jimmy Spurs or Longhunter or all the other good smiths' slicked guns and a fast guy with stock guns would still beat me.I shoot what I can afford.I would love it even if everyone had slicked guns but me,I would still shoot.I guess I just dont understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Howdy Why has this even come up? Has somebody started demanding a stock gun category? As for whether or not the products of Winchester and Colt and Marlin and the rest were better than what Uberti offers today, they most certainly were. I have deburred and smoothed plenty of Uberti parts that were left with burrs and rough surfaces that would never have made it out of the Colt, Winchester, Marlin, or anybody else's factory. The difference was that skilled labor was relatively cheap and firearms manufacturers could afford to pay the extra cost of hand labor to fine tune firearms. All those burrs and rough machined surfaces that Uberti leaves in there is why they have to put in extra heavy springs, just to overcome the internal friction and make the guns work. So most folks who champion 'stock guns' don't even realize that as they roll off the Uberti assembly line, modern guns are simply not as well fitted as what came out off the assembly lines 125 years ago. That's not to say there were not cheap guns back then too, there were. But anybody who has ever taken the side plate off an old S&W and seen the beautiful workmanship inside will know what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Lol! Stock gun Nazi's.... GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I feel pretty confident in saying that there will never be a stock gun category in SASS. Not just because it cannot be equitably done... ...but NO one wants one. Other than the Oddster and the Rev. The Rev quit comin' around here. Not ever gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Obviously these "stock gun" guys are socialist, they will only be happy when everyone is down to the same miserable "equal" level. Therefore the only possible solution is for each club to furnish one set of guns for each stage (stock with no modifications of course) and warthog equivalent ammunition. Only problem will be monthly match entry fees will be about $200 dollars and participation will drop to about about three, but hey, everybody gets a prize and home by lunchtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 It really is quite simple.You merely have to shoot guns just like mine, in the exact manner I shoot mine.. Then you are good to go!!! :D It really is SO simple! No, you're too fast. Like me 'n mine! Oh wait... my guns aren't stock. And I regularly finish next to or last. Guns ain't got nuttin' to do with it. Ever single one of these "stock gun category" fellars seems to all feel it's unfair for them as they'd be "competitive" if it weren't for some folks shootin' all slicked up and tricked out guns. It's all about trigger time. Now yesterday... I was FAST. I walked outside the reloading room in the barn... and fired off five fast shots... they musta been in the neighorhood of 2.5 seconds or so... Recoil was fearsome... I'm gonna shoot them'uns up tomorrow... maybe I can come in last! Didn't make it today... another new shooter showed up and showed me up! (But, hey! I won my category!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Willy Dunkum, SASS # 61027 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I feel pretty confident in saying that there will never be a stock gun category in SASS. Not just because it cannot be equitably done... ...but NO one wants one. Other than the Oddster and the Rev. The Rev quit comin' around here. Not ever gonna happen. Hey wait a minute, I'm Rev. Oh wait, another Rev...got it. Whew! I was worried for a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have some questions for folks that support the idea of a stock gun category?1. Would there be a price limit? You can get anything stock for a price. 2. Would repairs be allowed? 3. What would be a repair? If a forcing cone is rough, could it be honed? How far out of spec would something have to be before it was a repair instead of a modification? 4. If repairs are allowed, how would you define the fitting required to replace parts? How would you define the source of the parts? Cheers, BJT Of nearly equal and but over-riding importance... somehow, the folks that regularly score our monthly match and generally keep the rest of ne-er-do-wells in check skipped out of town this weekend (some excuse about State Championship, but I bet they were partyin' and carousing around), which left no one in charge of scores... no computer, etc! Like we couldn't do this by hand... So... as a recovering score junkie, I up and volunteered! BJT... just for you... for a small nominal fee, which if you'll forward your CC # (don't forget that little code thingie on the back I'll be sure to only use it ONCE), you can have won our match today... I'll even add a special category for a slightly larger upcharge... Stock Guns... what say pard? As an aside... I'd have won, but there were some 26 other folks ahead of me... in other categories! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have some questions for folks that support the idea of a stock gun category? 1. Would there be a price limit? You can get anything stock for a price. 2. Would repairs be allowed? 3. What would be a repair? If a forcing cone is rough, could it be honed? How far out of spec would something have to be before it was a repair instead of a modification? 4. If repairs are allowed, how would you define the fitting required to replace parts? How would you define the source of the parts? Cheers, BJT Remember IROC? Boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Sigh, lets just double or triple match fees and have everyone write in on the entry form what they want on their buckle or award. It wouldn't matter if two were the same, because none of them would really mean anything. Grizzly Dave Champion of the known universe Bald, fat, short, one eyed, over fifty, bearded, ornery, mountain dwarf category Well, I guess I'd have to pay a premium as I probably went over the maximum characters. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Ya But the real question is, how could the meek inherit the earth? What if one meek is meeker than another meek!! And if you used your stock guns more than other stock-gun shooters. Wouldn't your stock-guns unstock themselves? BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Jackson Turner Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 And if you used your stock guns more than other stock-gun shooters. Wouldn't your stock-guns unstock themselves? He's right, you know. May I inquire if a toothpaste and dryfire action job is allowed? ;-) Cheers, FJT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 He's right, you know. May I inquire if a toothpaste and dryfire action job is allowed? ;-) Cheers, FJT It all depends on certain things, my good friend. Is the toothpaste tartar control? Is it floride treated? Does it help prevent cavities? Does it help prevent bad breath? Is it a Gel or a Paste? If you have a stock rifle that has been treated with a tartar controlled paste and my rifle was treated with a cavity preventative only, then your rifle would no longer be stock and mine would. Its all very simple once you put great minds together and iron out all the little details... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 He's right, you know. May I inquire if a toothpaste and dryfire action job is allowed? ;-) Cheers, FJT Toothpaste in a tube is not allowed as it did not exist in the 1800's. However you can make your own with baking soda and water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I support it and encourage it, then I'll shoot it. Be a good way to burst some ballons that have been floating around for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I have both type guns, and the non-stock are my favorites, BUT yes, stock can have a reasonably obtainable definition for our style guns. I wouldnt support it currently, I do not want any new cats before bp gets Gunfighter as some sort of a recognized cat. My question is why so many here are treating it like a cobra, your protests and reasoning borders on panicked? We have included sissy clothes cats, year-by-year age cats and I personally believe we are flirting hard with a post 1910 cat and you guys are acting terrified of someone who wants to shoot cheap unmodified guns as a separate cat, come on, what is the real fear of this! I would not support it at this time but do consider it as more relevant than so many of the non shooting based cats that we have already voted in. If you are willing to go far enough to define rules for what constitutes stock, then enforcement is not a problem. Rules will be followed, then and now, only if we actively support them and vigorously enforce them. Just like murder, make the price fit the crime and the tab will become to high for those who currently laugh at the penalties, and yes we have had SASS competitors do it also. What do you feel a dirty rotten low down cheater deserves for wanting to take advantage of his/her supposed friends in a 'for fun' family sport like SASS? If it came to a vote, my vote is currently no and I have given my reason. What is your reason, perhaps just one open cat for everyone would be a more honest answer based on this thread? Is that what we want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Steel Duke Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I believe that IPSA has a stock revolver category, what is their definition of stock? BSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Bob, the reeason that it makes most of us panic is because if you have ever put on a match you know you have enough to worry about. Now you have another issue to police, which by the way a stock gun category would be a nightmare compared to policing B western or Classic. If you want to shoot stock guns great,if you want a cookie for it sorry. If you want to win while shooting stock guns..........wait for it...........PRACTICE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 How do you define "stock?" My question exactly, my Smoke Wagons are STOCK. They came in outta the box from Taylor's isn't that stock???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mudd Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 It really is quite simple. You merely have to shoot guns just like mine, in the exact manner I shoot mine.. Then you are good to go!!! :D It really is SO simple! Concise and "to the point". Marauder understands "New Rules". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mudd Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 I support it and encourage it, then I'll shoot it. Be a good way to burst some ballons that have been floating around for awhile. Easy for you, big guy. You duz "action jobs" on guns by movin' them parts so fast they shed all the burrs and such themselves By the way; thanks for the SXS video. That method sure does work! In some small amount of seriousness: You would expose that "stock gun" idea for a waste of the paper it would be written on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 A stock gun catagory isn't going to fly. There are too many manufacturers out there already giving shooters what they want and these "race ready" guns would be considered "stock" but they aren't. How would you compare a Ruger Vaquero with it's factory double springs with one of the many other offerings? To answer your question BJT, "repairs" would be allowed I would think just as they already are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Sorry Deuce but that answer just doesnt cut it. The same can be said for almost every cat we shoot,if you want want to wear embroidered pink shirts you can wear them in any existing cat so why ask for a separate one or if you want to shoot one handed, just shoot that way and do not expect a cat of your own? AHHH, are we now talking about the old level playing field thing? If this is the case then perhaps we need to accept that no matter how objectionable the premise, every time we have created a category, we were attempting to create a way of leveling the field amongst a group of like minded shooters. As far as cheating goes, there has always been a percentage of people who just will not play by the rules but I think that number has changed dramatically in modern times. A cheater is a cheater and the last thing a cheater wants is a light shining on him, so make a point of recognizing the cheater and most will disappear. Make the rule, enforce it with huge amounts of vigor and penalty early on and you will find that it begins to self regulate pretty soon. The problem is that we now do not like to call those who are less than honest what they really are! Its just very possible that the last couple of votes has solved the problem for us, people are pretty adamant that they want no new categories period. It would seem that the old attitude of 'just let everyone do what they want' has limited out with the rank and file. For the most part this is a waste of time argument, if the support were out there it wwould happen one day and otherwise we are just giving ole Tex something to snicker about while he enjoys his Sunday morning Cheerios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 He's right, you know. May I inquire if a toothpaste and dryfire action job is allowed? ;-) Cheers, FJT Toothpaste and dryfire? Does that really work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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