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Shooting Bull

Advantage of mouse farts?

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Posted (edited)

Talking about ammo here, not flatulent rodents. ;)

 

I shoot 38 Special in both rifle and pistols. A while back I switched from 125 grain to 105 grain bullets. Both sit atop 3.5 grains of Trail Boss. When I do my part these little babies ring steel just fine but they wouldn’t even knock down a drunken sailor. For that reason I carry some 158 grain rounds to matches in case there are knockdown targets. Today I got to wondering if I really do gain anything by shooting the mouse fart loads. I’m contemplating switching back to 125s and bumping the powder up to around 3.8 - 4.0 grains. What are your thoughts one way or the other? 

 

P.S. This question is primarily geared toward pistols. You can tell me you can feel the difference in the rifle but I won’t believe you. :D

Edited by Shooting Bull

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Search for Doc Shapiro's testing on this very subject. Quite enlightening.

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I use 3.6 grains of Tite-group with a 125 gr bullet. Not a mouse fart by any means. I guess Tite-Group is a "snappier" powder. I've read it's mainly for semi-autos. I like the load and I never have a problem with a knockdown if I hit the darn thing!!:D

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Posted (edited)

Mouse farts? I know you are referencing pistols, but in the SxS shotgun someone loaned me at a shoot, I named them puff-puff loads. Definitely noticed in the shotgun.

 

But as to the name, I'm good with "mouse farts." :lol:

 

Have not had a chance to read Shapiro's doc yet, but do have it downloaded. Have also been talking to a trainer off and on recently. His view is that if recoil goes too low, then the gun can not keep up with the shooter. This makes sense for semi-autos, but I have not been able to square this with revolvers and lever guns (or shotguns), but he says it is true for them too.

 

Apparently, Shapiro discusses this. I will try to read the doc in the next few days, then maybe I can contribute something more than this post.

Edited by John Kloehr
stupid typo

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I asked the same thing a bit back in a thread that veered away from the original topic :)  

The words from the man himself are in the link, but the TLDR version is 125grn at~825fps (so 105ish power factor) was the fastest splits in there data.

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It's not so much bullet weight. 

 

I've watched a few shooters evolve into state and regional champions.  As they got faster they increased the velocity of their loads in order to get "feedback" from the targets faster.

 

Some say, "Hogwash!  If you're running stages in the teens there's no way you're getting 'feedback' from the targets.  You're just working the gun."   Then you haven't been there.

 

Some require more feedback from the pistols or use the recoil to help them set the next shot.  They tend to experiment with bullet weight more.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

It's not so much bullet weight. 

 

I've watched a few shooters evolve into state and regional champions.  As they got faster they increased the velocity of their loads in order to get "feedback" from the targets faster.

 

Some say, "Hogwash!  If you're running stages in the teens there's no way you're getting 'feedback' from the targets.  You're just working the gun."   Then you haven't been there.

 

Some require more feedback from the pistols or use the recoil to help them set the next shot.  They tend to experiment with bullet weight more.

 

 

+1. I need a certain amount of recoil to keep the gun seated in my hand, especially shooting Duelist. 

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Everybody s definition of mouse fart is  different.   However you won't see anyone winning a big match with ultra low powered rounds. They have been proven over and over to be slower to shoot. 

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What is really needed?  Have you actually experimented with fall plates to see or are guessing.  I shoot 105's with 3.1 or.2 of trail boss all of the steel at Winter Range fell using that load.  In the pistol that generates 750 fps using mag primers and starline brass.   

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Talking about ammo here, not flatulent rodents. ;)

 

I shoot 38 Special in both rifle and pistols. A while back I switched from 125 grain to 105 grain bullets. Both sit atop 3.5 grains of Trail Boss. When I do my part these little babies ring steel just fine but they wouldn’t even knock down a drunken sailor. For that reason I carry some 158 grain rounds to matches in case there are knockdown targets. Today I got to wondering if I really do gain anything by shooting the mouse fart loads. I’m contemplating switching back to 125s and bumping the powder up to around 3.8 - 4.0 grains. What are your thoughts one way or the other? 

 

P.S. This question is primarily geared toward pistols. You can tell me you can feel the difference in the rifle but I won’t believe you. :D

 

We really need to chat.  Send me a PM sometime and I'll send you a phone number.

 

Oh, and go back to the 125gr bullets.

 

And Stump, stop waiting for feedback (read Brian Enos's book again, especially the sections about awareness)!


Doc

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I use 3.6 grains of Tite-group with a 125 gr bullet. Not a mouse fart by any means. I guess Tite-Group is a "snappier" powder. I've read it's mainly for semi-autos. I like the load and I never have a problem with a knockdown if I hit the darn thing!!:D

If you’re shooting a 38, you’re shooting mouse farts 

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54 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

(read Brian Enos's book again)!


Doc


Your book and Brian’s are the two books I recommend to new shooters. Given away several of each.

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Posted (edited)

I was a spotter.  I'm watching the target the shooter would shoot first.  I hear the timer beep.   I hear no bang no ding and no target movement.  Perhaps the shooter is having gun problems?  I wait a little while before looking at the shooter to see what the problem is.  He's shooting!  And from his muzzle direction it looks like he's on his 3rd or 4th target!  His loads are so light I can't hear a bang, no recoil or target movement.  When in doubt the call goes in the shooters favor.  All 3 spotters had puzzled looks on our faces before calling it clean.  Last time I spotted for that shooter.

 

One advantage of shooting light loads.

Edited by Matthew Duncan
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I shot  105's over 3.5 grn of American select (.38). A fellow shooter (He's been at it a long time) mentioned that he's never seen a spotter miss a clean hit with a 130 grn but has seen spotters miss clean hits with the 105's.  He right, I switched back to the 130's.  Oh and his 5 stage match times run under 100 seconds.  

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The only advantage that I can think of is that if you're shooting cardboard......you get your bullets back to reload again after they stuck in the cardboard. 

 

Yes, I've seen it.

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Unfortunately, there is a similar problem shooting Cap Guns.  When shooting .36s with swaged soft ball, there will be more called misses even when you know you have hit the target.  I have had spotters complain I need more powder 'cause they can't hear the hit.  Hear the hit???  spotter is suppose to LOOK for the hit.  the problem is even more compounded when the target plate is "dead" and doesn't "ring" with the hit.

 

Years ago when still chasing the Brass Ring, I was shooting 105Gr bullets in 38s.  Didn't go really well.  Went back to 125Gr and things went much better.  Not enough difference in recoil to spit at.  But,  Some folks just absolutely must have the latest doohickey, trix bullet, fad powder and latest design in lower hammer technology to increase their "edge" toward the top spot.  Never mind they are over 55, over weight, and don't practice.  Just one more trix improvement should do it :ph34r: 

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I've been using 3.0 gr of Hodgden Clays and a 140 gr TCFP (Chey-Cast) Hi-Tek coated for my 38 spl loads for years. They have not failed me with any knockdown yet, as long as I hit it, in revolvers (NMVs) or rifles.

JC

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I know it's different  two-handed, but shooting gunfighter, my pistol run times are the same with 125's as with 158's.

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Unfortunately, there is a similar problem shooting Cap Guns.  When shooting .36s with swaged soft ball, there will be more called misses even when you know you have hit the target.  I have had spotters complain I need more powder 'cause they can't hear the hit.  Hear the hit???  spotter is suppose to LOOK for the hit.  the problem is even more compounded when the target plate is "dead" and doesn't "ring" with the hit.

 

Years ago when still chasing the Brass Ring, I was shooting 105Gr bullets in 38s.  Didn't go really well.  Went back to 125Gr and things went much better.  Not enough difference in recoil to spit at.  But,  Some folks just absolutely must have the latest doohickey, trix bullet, fad powder and latest design in lower hammer technology to increase their "edge" toward the top spot.  Never mind they are over 55, over weight, and don't practice.  Just one more trix improvement should do it :ph34r: 

 

Hey! I'm not I'm not over 55! :angry:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:P:lol::lol::lol::lol::P

 

 

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6 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

The only advantage that I can think of is that if you're shooting cardboard......you get your bullets back to reload again after they stuck in the cardboard. 

 

Yes, I've seen it.

 

 

Years ago I was teaching a shooting school at an unnamed state match in the NW.  We started out shooting groups on cardboard IPSC targets to determine point of impact (POI) and if it's different from point of aim (POA).  Anyway, one guy shooting 45's wasn't putting any holes in the target.  I went over to look and, sure enough, his bullets were bouncing off the cardboard target.  165gr bullets out of a 45LC - no idea what the powder charge was.  The teasing for that lasted the entire match!

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17 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

If you’re shooting a 38, you’re shooting mouse farts 

And probably winning.

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18 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

If you’re shooting a 38, you’re shooting mouse farts 

 I disagree!;)

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22 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

And probably winning.

Probably. And probably I’d win a best looking legs contest if I shaved them and wore a skirt. But some things are just not worth it. 

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4 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Probably. And probably I’d win a best looking legs contest if I shaved them and wore a skirt. But some things are just not worth it. 

I guess I’m just not tough enough for those big boy loads, or think that any connection between the caliber you shoot and your manliness is tenuous at best. 

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18 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

If you’re shooting a 38, you’re shooting mouse farts 

Would you be willing to act as a target stand for these mouse fart loads? Just saying;)

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22 minutes ago, Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 said:

Would you be willing to act as a target stand for these mouse fart loads? Just saying;)

Thanks you beat me to it!;)

 

31 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I’m sure you do. And a mouse doesn’t call them mouse farts either. He just calls them farts. 

I guess I'm just not as MANLY and tough as you are! 

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Of course, if one must absolutely positively must shoot 38s, the simple recipe is 3f to the base of a 125Gr bullet and call it GOOD!!

 

Right .... Rye ???  :rolleyes:

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There is one really good thing about mouse fart loads.....

 

 

If your competition is shooting them;

 

 

 you have nothing to worry about. ;)

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

And probably winning.

 

Winning the Cadillac that's periodically mentioned at matches?

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35 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Of course, if one must absolutely positively must shoot 38s, the simple recipe is 3f to the base of a 125Gr bullet and call it GOOD!!

 

Right .... Rye ???  :rolleyes:

Back in my BP days, I shot .44-40 I may try your .38 recipe some day .;)

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2 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 

Winning the Cadillac that's periodically mentioned at matches?

Exactly!

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On 5/29/2020 at 6:19 PM, Shooting Bull said:

Talking about ammo here, not flatulent rodents. ;)

 

I shoot 38 Special in both rifle and pistols. A while back I switched from 125 grain to 105 grain bullets. Both sit atop 3.5 grains of Trail Boss. When I do my part these little babies ring steel just fine but they wouldn’t even knock down a drunken sailor. For that reason I carry some 158 grain rounds to matches in case there are knockdown targets. Today I got to wondering if I really do gain anything by shooting the mouse fart loads. I’m contemplating switching back to 125s and bumping the powder up to around 3.8 - 4.0 grains. What are your thoughts one way or the other? 

 

P.S. This question is primarily geared toward pistols. You can tell me you can feel the difference in the rifle but I won’t believe you. :D

 

When did you step up to mouse fart loads?  :huh:

The loads I remember see' you shoot would barely make fly fart level. :P

OLG 

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5 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

There is one really good thing about mouse fart loads.....

If your competition is shooting them;

 you have nothing to worry about. ;)

Since I have no competition, (or... is that no one is in competition with me?), I really don't have anything to worry about.  

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my biggest complaint would locking up revolvers with backed out primers on these loads , otherwise i like light loads for the shootin , 

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6 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

 

Years ago I was teaching a shooting school at an unnamed state match in the NW.  We started out shooting groups on cardboard IPSC targets to determine point of impact (POI) and if it's different from point of aim (POA).  Anyway, one guy shooting 45's wasn't putting any holes in the target.  I went over to look and, sure enough, his bullets were bouncing off the cardboard target.  165gr bullets out of a 45LC - no idea what the powder charge was.  The teasing for that lasted the entire match!

Similar to an experience I had with a shooter several years ago. He liked to run his chops about how anyone not shooting 45's was shooting "mouse fart" loads, he would deride others lack of fortitude/manhood and constantly question whether others loads were even making power factor. I had finally had enough and brought my chronograph to a match. His loads were 160 grain 45's at about 550fps. PF of 88. Same load in rifle and pistol with about 50 FPS more from the rifle PF of 96 . My pistols were 125 grain 38's at 780 fps PF of 96. Rifle was 147 grain at about 750 fps PF of 110. I have never been recoil sensitive and was a "hand cannon" (44 mag, 454 Casull, 480 Ruger, 460 S&W, and 500 S&W)  junkie for a lot of years, my CAS loads are the lightest center fire I have ever shot.

I tried to explain some of Doc Shapiro's research (great stuff by the way Doc Shapiro!!!) to the guy but he was having none of it. He got ticked off and left the game shortly afterwards. Always sorry to see anyone quit but sometimes....

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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