Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

fannerfifty 59504

Who calls the procedural?

Recommended Posts

Who calls the procedurals? I recently had an experience where the TO called several procedurals on shooters , none of the counters saw the procedurals and yet the TO assessed the penalty, or explained what they didn't see to have them change there score. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good question.  At the clubs that I shoot at, if anyone calls a procedure and discussion will follow between timer, spotters and then a decision will be made, to issue a procedure penalty or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Timer Operator.

 

Pg 48 of the RO1 manual:

 

The Timer Operator is IN CHARGE of the Firing Line.
 The TO verifies at least 2 of the 3 spotters agree on misses, and can consider input 
from the spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations- as well as any 
personal observations during the stage.
 A TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters in regard to missed, but 
can question spotters as to the location of misses. 
 The TO is often in the best position to see the direction of the muzzle, which is 
helpful in determining edge hits. 
 Final assessment regarding the assessment of penalties is made by the TO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 23 of handbook. Timer operator has authority to call procedurals, assisted by spotters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A single spotter or the T/O may call a procedural. The T/O has the authority to report the P to the scorekeeper - or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, fannerfifty 59504 said:

Who calls the procedurals? I recently had an experience where the TO called several procedurals on shooters , none of the counters saw the procedurals and yet the TO assessed the penalty, or explained what they didn't see to have them change there score. 

T.O. calls out: "NEXT SHOOTER.  Does the shooter understand the course of fire? STAND BY."  BEEP. Looks like he should also ask: "Do the spotters understand the course of fire?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To should have pointed out the procedural to the shooter, I thought the to does not ask the shooter if they understand the course of fire anymore.

Rafe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Page 21 at the bottom, SHB

 

- Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) – is the Chief Range Officer (CRO) for the stage and is in charge of the firing line as long as he/she is running the timer, and has the primary objective to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire.

 

- Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

It appears to me that the TO needs to be watching the shooter not the targets.  It it the job of the spotters to watch for "p's".

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
 
19 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

... I thought the to does not ask the shooter if they understand the course of fire anymore.

Rafe

 

If we ask, "Does the shooter understand the course of fire?"  It seems every shooter will then stand there and explain the course of fire to us.

 

BUT,

RO I Course pg 49 

406412849_FireShotCapture006--www.sassnet_com.jpg.413320af2040ed2b0c2bef9e6edc776b.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

McCandles -

 

When I run the clock, I don't ask unless the shooter is looking confused, or is new to the game.  And of course if they ask questions I'll explain it.

 

To me, 'shooter ready?' includes if they understand the course of fire.

 

That's my take on it.

Grizz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like I should have been more direct in my post. 

"I recently had an experience where the TO called several procedurals on shooters , none of the counters saw the procedurals"

Time to get new spotters!

Or maybe a new T.O.

Someone isn't doing the job they should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It appears to me that the TO needs to be watching the shooter not the targets.  It it the job of the spotters to watch for "p's".

 

The Timer Operator should be just behind the shoulder of the shooter, looking over the shooter and his gun(s).   When properly in this position, he will ALWAYS have the best view of what target was being engaged on each shot,.  The faster the shooter is, the harder it is for spotters standing off the line of fire to see the correct sequence.

 

Spotters are looking for hits and misses, and counting the misses.  IF one or more see a Procedural or Safety violation, they bring it up to the TO when reporting their miss counts.   Almost all the time, the TO will have already seen the P or safety violation.  If the TO did not see it, it is up to him/her to consider the input about the P or Safety from all three spotters, and assess such penalties as are consistent with what shooter actions he/she DID see.  

 

Now, sometimes things get happening fast, and some confusion can exist on what the shooter did.   That is where the "best judgement of the TO" has to kick in.

 

A good TO will support the spotters' reports of a P or a Safety, unless just 1 spotter believed there was a violation, but such violation was something that the TO should have been able to see, or the TO saw the shooter's run did not happen that way, or  the spotter calling it out has a poor understanding of the rule used to make that report..   It's not a perfect approach, but it works out real well over the long run.   A TO only has the view that he was able to position himself to ensure that he saw.  That comes with tons of experience doing the job.  If you have a TO who is gaining that experience, have a little patience with him and expect that he may make an occasional call that seems wrong.  That is what we understand will happen when we have this game run the way it has worked for quite a while.  Sorta like how baseball umpires and basketball refs don't get every single call right and some fouls and violations slip by.  The TO is there to make things FAIR, not to make things PERFECT, athough that is certainly a goal they all would like to get to.

 

But, in the end, it's the TO who calls the P or Safety, considering any input from the spotters.

 

Quote

TO is to call out: Does the shooter understand the course of fire?

 

That part of the recommended way to do the TO job has fallen into disuse except for when a beginning shooter is on the line.  If the shooter says a starting line, or otherwise indicates he is ready, we now take it that he believes he understands the course of fire.  This means a shooter MUST know the course of fire, or ask TO to go over the part he does not understand.  Asking about "Does shooter understand the course" really annoys almost all shooters, slows down matches, and rarely prompts the beginning shooter to speak up and say "No, explain the stage again"

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

If we ask, "Does the shooter understand the course of fire?"  It seems every shooter will then stand there and explain the course of fire to us.

 

BUT,

RO1 Course pg 49 

406412849_FireShotCapture006--www.sassnet_com.jpg.413320af2040ed2b0c2bef9e6edc776b.jpg

 

 

That is an ERROR that we are in the process of correcting in the updated versions of the RO Courses.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Page 21 at the bottom, SHB

 

- Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) – is the Chief Range Officer (CRO) for the stage and is in charge of the firing line as long as he/she is running the timer, and has the primary objective to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire.

 

- Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

It appears to me that the TO needs to be watching the shooter not the targets.  It it the job of the spotters to watch for "p's".

 

 

if you stand behind the shooter's strong shoulder, you CAN watch the firearms,, and targets,  you can watch engagements and watch for edge hits,,  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Page 21 at the bottom, SHB

 

- Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) – is the Chief Range Officer (CRO) for the stage and is in charge of the firing line as long as he/she is running the timer, and has the primary objective to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire.

 

- Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

 

It appears to me that the TO needs to be watching the shooter not the targets.  It it the job of the spotters to watch for "p's".

 

 

 

 

You're not wrong.  But when you say the TO needs to be watching the shooter it means they should be watching for proper target engagement along with watching for any safety issues.  You do that by watching the gun.  You don't have to watch the targets to see if they're being engaged properly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry but when I am the TO I'm watching the shooter & the firearms for safety issues as well as counting the firearm rounds as they are fired. I'm not watching targets. That's what spotters are for. We have 3 spotters for each shooter who call misses and procedural penalties. If a procedural is called I'll ask what it was for to make sure it did indeed violate the stage instructions, and if so I'll explain the P to the shooter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There may also be some P's earned where the spotters may not be in a physical position to see the infraction and that have nothing to do with target order. A TO may be the only person who was aware of the infraction as he is in a better physical position in comparison to the shooter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was my understanding that the spotters are looking for misses and making sure the targets are hit in proper order.  The TO is safely assisting the shooter through the course of fire.  A TO cannot overrule the spotters on misses but can overrule the spotters on a procedural and/or a safety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the list of protocols on RO1 page 49 the spotters are only polled for misses. It says nothing about procedurals, safeties, Spirit of the game etc.  It doesn't seem to match what we have been doing. Everyones a safety officer, the spotters watch for misses, procedurals, etc. TO polls the Spotters for all of the above.

As a TO I was taught to watch the shooters gun handling, round count, staging and re-staging of guns, gun order, and "IF" possible the shooting order. Also to no longer ask of the shooter understands the course of fire. With all that under the blanket of "safely assist the shooter the the course of fire".

Using the "T" Ball culture we now live in if the TO polls the spotters and they come up with 2,1,3 misses the TO should give the benefit to the shooter and call one miss.If after asking the shooters and they can't come to a consensus. 

The same would apply here wouldn't it. TO says procedural, Spotters say no, TO can't convince them. No call!!!!!

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Piling on, if he spotters aren't in a position to see the shooters results, movements etc, then they need to move. The other side of that is the TO is behind a shooter shooting through a window/door and all the TO can see is the shooter....shooting, he can't see the targets.

Seems the 4 people watching the shooter need to come to an agreement at the end of the stage. If they can't then what?

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That is an ERROR that we are in the process of correcting in the updated versions of the RO Courses.

 

 

Thank you!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shooter can always call a procedural on themselves as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All the shoots I've been to the spotters call the procedural but the TO may ask them to explain. The TO can call a P also but he would also explain. If the shooter doesn't agree he can take it up with the Match Director.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

McCandles -

 

When I run the clock, I don't ask unless the shooter is looking confused, or is new to the game.  And of course if they ask questions I'll explain it.

 

To me, 'shooter ready?' includes if they understand the course of fire.

 

That's my take on it.

Grizz

Agree completely.  If the shooter asks questions or gives me the "deer in the headlights" look, I'll take a moment and clear up any confusion.  But, I've just been doing:

"Shooter Ready?"

"Standby"

and then the gong sounds...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

According to the list of protocols on RO1 page 49 the spotters are only polled for misses. It says nothing about procedurals, safeties, Spirit of the game etc.  It doesn't seem to match what we have been doing. Everyones a safety officer, the spotters watch for misses, procedurals, etc. TO polls the Spotters for all of the above.

As a TO I was taught to watch the shooters gun handling, round count, staging and re-staging of guns, gun order, and "IF" possible the shooting order. Also to no longer ask of the shooter understands the course of fire. With all that under the blanket of "safely assist the shooter the the course of fire".

Using the "T" Ball culture we now live in if the TO polls the spotters and they come up with 2,1,3 misses the TO should give the benefit to the shooter and call one miss.If after asking the shooters and they can't come to a consensus. 

The same would apply here wouldn't it. TO says procedural, Spotters say no, TO can't convince them. No call!!!!!

Ike

Two spotters agree on 2 misses...

SHB pg 20

Quote

- Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to
verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.
A minimum of three spotters are required – majority 2/3 breaks any ties in
regards to misses.

 

SHB pg 23 

Quote

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed.
The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator
(CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters. The scope of assessing penalties includes
safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal
firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category
specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder
categories. The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and
procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses).
Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

12 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Piling on, if he spotters aren't in a position to see the shooters results, movements etc, then they need to move. The other side of that is the TO is behind a shooter shooting through a window/door and all the TO can see is the shooter....shooting, he can't see the targets.

Seems the 4 people watching the shooter need to come to an agreement at the end of the stage. If they can't then what?

Ike

I've shot in plenty of prop buildings where we only have room for the shooter and the TO in them. The spotters won't fit in the building so the spotters stand to the side. Many of these buildings are being replaced over time, but it is what it is...Just have to make due. Wartrace just tore down their line shack last year. It was one of those where you might could fit a TO, shooter, and 1 spotter in there if it was stand and deliver. When we were moving from one side tray in the shack to the other, there was just room for the TO and Shooter.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree with some of the comments here.  I'm standing within arms reach of the shooter behind their right shoulder.  I'm counting shots, watching their gun handling and I can see the targets.  Target order is 2-1-2, shooter engages 3-1-1 with their revolver.   Spotters call no misses and scratch their heads about target order.  I'm going to call the P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are four range officers, a T.O. and three spotters. and RO1 says "Final assessment regarding the assessment of penalties is made by the T.O."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was referring to the reference chart that outlined the process for a TO. RO1 page 49. It doesn't say anything about determining procedurals or safeties with the spotters...just misses!

We have storefronts where the windows don't allow the TO to clearly see what the shooter shot. SO as others are saying, 4 people weigh in on the outcome, the TO ultimately makes the final determination. Unless the shooter protests and then ?????

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
5 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I was referring to the reference chart that outlined the process for a TO. RO1 page 49. It doesn't say anything about determining procedurals or safeties with the spotters...just misses!

We have storefronts where the windows don't allow the TO to clearly see what the shooter shot. SO as others are saying, 4 people weigh in on the outcome, the TO ultimately makes the final determination. Unless the shooter protests and then ?????

Ike

 EXACTLY now what?? 27 responses and few agree  :FlagAm:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I was referring to the reference chart that outlined the process for a TO. RO1 page 49. It doesn't say anything about determining procedurals or safeties with the spotters...just misses!

We have storefronts where the windows don't allow the TO to clearly see what the shooter shot. SO as others are saying, 4 people weigh in on the outcome, the TO ultimately makes the final determination. Unless the shooter protests and then ?????

Ike

 

Follow the standard procedures for a protest as outlined in the rules..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

if you stand behind the shooter's strong shoulder, you CAN watch the firearms,, and targets,  you can watch engagements and watch for edge hits,,  

Ta Daaa!!:) Yep, TO should be able to handle that if they are in the proper position. If we don't watch for target engagement (while watching the gun) how are we gonna get the shooter back to the right target when the deer in the headlights hit "huh where am I?"...…."Target 3!!..double tap target 3!!";) Good Luck:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

We have storefronts where the windows don't allow the TO to clearly see what the shooter shot. SO as others are saying, 4 people weigh in on the outcome, the TO ultimately makes the final determination. Unless the shooter protests and then ?????

SHB pg 23

Quote

In the event a competitor feels a CRO/TO’s ruling is in error or has been unfairly assessed,
and the firearms have been made safe and unloaded, the ruling may be politely and calmly
appealed, initially to the CRO/TO and/or Posse Marshal, and only by the competitor involved.
The discussion should be taken off the firing line so as not to incur any delays in the shooting
flow, involving only those officials on the line at that time and the shooter (the shooter,
CRO/TO and spotters). The CRO/TO must remain completely objective, consider the facts
and evidence as it is, and must be prepared to discuss the details addressing any questions
the shooter may have. Recorded video/audio or photographic data will never be allowed to be
presented as evidence in either regard. Remember: The benefit of any doubt always goes to
the shooter. Competitors are typically required to register their appeal or protest prior to
leaving the stage or bay where the event in question took place.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our practice is to poll the spotters for Misses and P's, but the P must be described and accepted by the TO and the shooter briefed on what the P is for before they leave the line.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you noticed that a lot of times, right after the "error." the shooter pauses or calls it on himself?

(yes, I said him. I don't see too many ladies earning "P's")

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/22/2019 at 12:43 PM, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 EXACTLY now what?? 27 responses and few agree  :FlagAm:

 

I'm not sure what you mean about few agree?  It's not a matter of agreeing.  There's a rule, responsibilities are clearly explained, as Branchwater said:

 

SHB page 24

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters. The scope of assessing penalties includes safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder categories. The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses). Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

People don't have to agree, they just have to understand whose responsibility it is, in this case the TO.   I'm not sure who, if anyone, has disputed that.  This isn?"'t really a "What's the Call?", it's a "What does the Handbook Say?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.