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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

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i believe you could shoot it this way....

however, your milage may vary!

 

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Yup

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Yep - your choice so long as you triple tap the 2 outside targets first

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I say NO.

 

Triple tap means 3.   QUAD tap means 4.

 

How can you triple tap all three targets if you actually quad tap the center target?

 

..........Widder

 

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10 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I say NO.

 

Triple tap means 3.   QUAD tap means 4.

 

How can you triple tap all three targets if you actually quad tap the center target?

 

..........Widder

 

 

Easy, you triple tap the center then put the tenth round on the center. ;)

 

Just so you know, multiple folks on my posse felt the same way you do. I asked the posse that had just finished and they allowed the triple tap +1 so we did also.) 

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1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Easy, you triple tap the center then put the tenth round on the center. ;)

 

Just so you know, multiple folks on my posse felt the same way you do. I asked the posse that had just finished and they allowed the triple tap +1 so we did also.) 

 

Well, that made it a quad tap.

 

But as long as everyone was given the same interpretation of the instructions and allowed to shoot it in that manner, then all is well.

 

..........Widder

 

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This is a fairly common type of stage.

 

Barring a overruling from the stage writer or match director?  YES.  The requirement to triple tap each target was fulfilled.  The 10th round is a separate instruction.

 

The assumption is the unwritten word "THEN."

 

“Triple tap targets in any order, (THEN) put tenth shot on center target.”

 

But it really should be clarified in the stage write up if you don't want it shot that way.  It does say "in any order."  So if that's not the case it needs to either state the order to engage the targets or clarify:  "Center target may not be quad tapped."  or "final shot on center may not cause a quad tap."  something....

 

 

 

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Here is another thought of mine:

 

What would you do if a shooter put their 1st shot on the center target....THEN, triple tapped target ONE, triple tapped target THREE and then triple tapped target TWO.

 

Would that not have fulfilled those same instructions based on the absence of the word 'THEN'.

The 10th shot would have fulfilled the 10th round requirement on target 2.

 

..........Widder

 

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Yes.

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If the stage writer intended for it to be shot in a different way, they should have written it differently.  The 3 targets were Triple tapped and the 10 round was place on the center...  It could have been written "center target cannot be quadruple tapped" or "Triple tap sweep starting at either end..."  The stage writer chose not to do that.

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Yep.  Perfectly good way to shoot the target array.  What the writer intended, thought, imagined, conjured, doesn't matter.  So long as you put 3 consecutive shots on each target your gold.  Four shots on the center target equals a triple tap plus one.  Atz the way I'da shot it.

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3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Here is another thought of mine:

 

What would you do if a shooter put their 1st shot on the center target....THEN, triple tapped target ONE, triple tapped target THREE and then triple tapped target TWO.

 

Would that not have fulfilled those same instructions based on the absence of the word 'THEN'.

The 10th shot would have fulfilled the 10th round requirement on target 2.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Only if you disregard all stage writing norms and assume the missing word is "AND".  You could do that, but whenever there is a list of things to do you always have to assume they are in order unless specified otherwise.

 

So in this case the 10th shot pretty clearly defines which shot.  The 10th one, not the 1st one.  You must triple tap for the first 9 rounds since there is no indication the instructions can be done in any order.  Your way makes the 1st round a single tap then you change targets.  That's a P no matter how you parse it.

 

Now, if it said this instead: “Place 3 shots on each target in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  What you just proposed would work perfect! ;)

 

And yes, I totally see how you got there.  That one definitely falls under "don't write it like that for a big annual with 10 posses or you might get it shot 3 different ways."

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If the stage writer wants a triple tap sweep starting on either end and then put the 10'th shot on the center target, they he/she should say so.  Otherwise, the way it was shot is fine.  The other way to say it is triple tap in any order, 10'th shot goes on the middle, no quadruple taps allowed.

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Well, I agree with Widder. How can four shots in sucession on the same target not be a quad-tap??? The targets don't have to be swept, true. You can start on any target but can't shoot the third triple tap on the center target followed by a fourth shot (#10) on the center target. (3 + 1 = 4 / quad-tap) Good grief!

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Yes you may, I have seen it shot that way at my club many time's.  Unless specific directions against it.

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Honestly, this must be a 'club to club' thing concerning what is acceptable and what ain't.

 

In this area that I shoot, triple tap means there is a minimum and maximum allowed..... which is 3.

 

And the word 'quad' also means there is a minimum and maximum allowed..... which is 4.

 

If there are clubs that allow any differentiation and EVERYONE is aware of that, then all is well because

everyone would have the same opportunity to shoot it within those allowances.

 

Thats my .02

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

In this area that I shoot, triple tap means there is a minimum and maximum allowed..... which is 3.

 

 

 

And therein lies the problem. It’s a “territorial” thing. I see a minimum in the stage instructions but no maximum. In my way of thinking you have to do a triple tap on your way to doing a quad tap and thus the requirements of stage instructions were met. Adding another shot to that same target doesn’t erase the previous three so a triple tap was performed no matter what happens after that. 

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Honestly, this must be a 'club to club' thing concerning what is acceptable and what ain't.

 

In this area that I shoot, triple tap means there is a minimum and maximum allowed..... which is 3.

 

And the word 'quad' also means there is a minimum and maximum allowed..... which is 4.

 

If there are clubs that allow any differentiation and EVERYONE is aware of that, then all is well because

everyone would have the same opportunity to shoot it within those allowances.

 

Thats my .02

 

..........Widder

 

Not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but genuinely curious. With that being said, if you folks have a stage with the instruction, “no double taps”, is it OK to triple tap?

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14 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

 

It's hard to determine if that was poor stage writing or intentional and either way the stage writer & RO's should have made things clear to the shooter.

 

My own interpretation is that the 10th and final round must be fired at the center target.  I would have swept the three targets and then gone back to the center target for the last shot, mostly to avoid even the slightest possibility of a procedural.

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X = single tap

XX = double tap

XXX = triple tap

XXXX = quad-tap 

 

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14 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

Yes.  Don't believe clarification would be needed.  What part of "in any order" is hard to understand?

 

If you're going to argue that firing 4 consecutive shots on the center target with the rifle is a "P", then I'd argue the same is true when only firing two shots from the first pistol at the second target, switching guns and firing one.    I know that two triple taps strings is a physical impossibility when only loading 5...   Correct if I'm wrong, but is firing a double tap, then a single tap the same as a triple tap?   If you answer that as a true statement, then why in the world would you also argue that shooting four consecutive shots at a single target doesn't also constitute a triple tap and + 1?  If the instructions had read a "triple tap sweep, starting on either end, with the 10th shot on the center target"... anything other than that would be a "P".

 

I get that the entire job of a stage writer is to stifle creativity among shooters... but when something as open ended as "in any order" is injected... isn't that leaving the door open for said creativity? 

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14 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

Yes, they had a stage written just like that at the ROOP annual this weekend and a bunch of us shoot it just that way (3-3-3+1)

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15 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

 

As Griff said, the key is "any order".  As you must triple tap all targets, in any order, then place the 10th (last) shot must be put on the center target.

 

It would not be a "round-count" stage since triple tapping is required for the first 9 rounds, but the target sequence is left to the shooter.

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2 hours ago, Chantry said:

 

It's hard to determine if that was poor stage writing or intentional and either way the stage writer & RO's should have made things clear to the shooter.

 

 

We made sure to clarify prior to anyone on our posse shooting the stage. Everyone had the opportunity to shoot the stage the same way. 

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You can not make any assumptions as to what the instructions mean.   You can only read them literally.

 

If I put three on the left, I have triple tapped it.

If I put three on the right, I have triple tapped it.

If I put three on the center, I have triple tapped it.

If I then put one on the middle, I have put the last one on the middle.

 

I have followed the instructions literally.   Can't be a problem.

 

I can see how some might not like it, but the phrase "any order" this is a legitimate way to decide what to do.

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2 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but genuinely curious. With that being said, if you folks have a stage with the instruction, “no double taps”, is it OK to triple tap?

 

Howdy Smokestack.

 

Locally (which includes 4 clubs within a 2 hour drive)  If the instructions state "no double taps", it means that the targets can only be engaged in a single tap order.    A double, triple or quad tap would earn the shooter a 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

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In TRR's Stage Conventions:

 

1)    The word "then" is required when specifying target order

a)     Otherwise, it is shooter's choice

 

 

we have all the Stage and Sweep Conventions listed in each of our match booklets

 

see attached for example

 

 

TRR Scenarios 22B Sep 18.pdf

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3 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 10 

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14 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

It's no use Widder, some folks believe that 1+1+1+1 = 3.  

If a stage calls for no double taps and you don’t allow a triple tap because you have to do a double tap first, then how can a person logically say that there is not a triple tap done before the 4th shot is fired on that target?

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