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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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11 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Benefit of doubt goes to the shooter.

Wow...

 

:blink:

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

No one has ask but I will:

 

PWB, given the exact wording that Shooting Bull posted on the stage description and given that the last 4 shots were put on target #2, what would you and/or the ROC consider the correct call?

 

I don't mind being wrong because I think its more important that we are all on the same page on this.

 

..........Widder

 

I'll see if I can get a consensus from the ROC...at this point, my personal opinion would be just that; not representing the ROC.

Given the local/regional variations of any "stage convention" for such a scenario, I'm thinking that a specifically written stage instruction re engagement options would be advised.

 

1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Benefit of doubt goes to the shooter.

 

There is no doubt that the question is regarding how to score a shooter hitting the last target 4X consecutively.

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Being that there are 5 pages of back and forth opinions on this, that seems like there exists some doubt to the correct answer to the proposed question. In those situations in SASS , benefit of doubt goes yo the shooter. An official ruling would remove that doubt.  

 

At this point we are in the "if you think it's against the rule it's a procedural"  stage, same as "if you think it's a miss" shooter gets credit for a hit.  Geez.

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Ok,  I have a question.  We're also doing a lot of shooter's choice stages.  Is there an obligation to tell TO and spotters how you're going to shoot the stage?

 

For example:

 

Sunday we had severl shooter's choice stages.  One has 4 rifle targets,  4 pistol targets and three shotgun.  The instructions were to shoot 20 shots from rifle and pistol engaging all 8 targets at least twice.  Everybody shot 10 on pistol with pistol and 10 on rifle with rifle.  Except me. I started with right most pistol target and double tapped the 4 in a sweep and then put 2 on the first available rifle target. Then, with rifle, I double tapped the rifle targets continuing the same direction and dumped the last 4.  I think I caught the spotters off guard because everyone was expecting me to dump last 2 pistol rounds on the pistol targets.  

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13 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Four pages and climbing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Kind of proud of myself with this one. :lol:

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12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

This reminds me of the "smart---" question often asked when the stage instructions say "Engage the 3 targets with 10 rounds, no double taps."

Someone always asks, "Can I triple tap them?"...answered by, "Only if you can do so without double-tapping on the way to the triple."

:P

 

 

This is my way of thinking.  It's being argued in this thread that the instant you place the fourth shot on the center target it's no longer a triple tap.  Yeah?  So what?  You had to perform a triple tap in order to get there so you fulfilled the stage instructions.  You triple tapped the target then put the 10th round on the center. 

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2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Kind of proud of myself with this one. :lol:

Kinda like a STD, it just wont stop.:lol:

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1 minute ago, Yul Lose said:

Kinda like a STD, it just wont stop.:lol:

 

 

I might have chosen a different analogy, but you're not wrong. :lol:

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2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

This is my way of thinking.  It's being argued in this thread that the instant you place the fourth shot on the center target it's no longer a triple tap.  Yeah?  So what?  You had to perform a triple tap in order to get there so you fulfilled the stage instructions.  You triple tapped the target then put the 10th round on the center. 

Other way to look at it, is he is acknowledging the triple tap. He didnt say he double tapped plus 1

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6 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Kind of proud of myself with this one. :lol:

Id expect nothing else from a ford man. Pot stirrer! Lol

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Other way to look at it, is he is acknowledging the triple tap. He didnt say he double tapped plus 1

 

You don't have to acknowledge it.  How else can you get to a triple tap without first performing a double tap?   

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15 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You don't have to acknowledge it.  How else can you get to a triple tap without first performing a double tap?   

...and you get to a quad tap with a triple tap. Thats what im saying. Shots are cumulative. It doesnt stay a triple tap if ya hit it again. It changes to a quad tap. You cant fraw a line after the triple and just say ok, this shot is by itself dont add it to the three before it. Well, unless you engaged a different target after the 3 and before the next one. Thatd be "drawing a line between them".

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48 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Kind of proud of myself with this one. :lol:

 

I agree..... ;)

 

Not to many pards can post a question and get atleast 5 pages of good, fairly civil comments of various views

without any political or religious comments, ALTHOUGH it did garner a comment comparative to STD's..... :lol::lol:

 

I'm proud of you for this one..... ;)

 

Personally speaking, if I were the ROC, I would stay out of this one and just let each match define it as

they prefer..... kinda like when the Supremes refuse to hear a case..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I agree..... ;)

 

Not to many pards can post a question and get atleast 5 pages of good, fairly civil comments of various views

without any political or religious comments, ALTHOUGH it did garner a comment comparative to STD's..... :lol::lol:

 

I'm proud of you for this one..... ;)

 

Personally speaking, if I were the ROC, I would stay out of this one and just let each match define it as

they prefer..... kinda like when the Supremes refuse to hear a case..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

That's fine so long as they do that and not assume that everyone interprets this question the same way.

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The scenario I described about our annual shoot this weekend did just that. The Posse marshals were instructed to tell their posse that, If you shoot P1-3 and P3-3, its ok to shoot P2-3 +1.

Same description triple tap each target any order. Then place the last or 10th round on the center target. Everyone was given the same opportunity to shoot it this way.

So again, stage instructions and walk-thru allowed the center target to get 4 rounds in one shooting string. Shooters also had a choice to shoot it P1-3, P2-3, P3-3 and then P2-1.

Ike

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2 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The scenario I described about our annual shoot this weekend did just that. The Posse marshals were instructed to tell their posse that, If you shoot P1-3 and P3-3, its ok to shoot P2-3 +1.

Same description triple tap each target any order. Then place the last or 10th round on the center target. Everyone was given the same opportunity to shoot it this way.

So again, stage instructions and walk-thru allowed the center target to get 4 rounds in one shooting string. Shooters also had a choice to shoot it P1-3, P2-3, P3-3 and then P2-1.

Ike

 

Its good that the instructions covered this.

 

If I were to write a stage like this, I would just write.... "put atleast 3 rounds on each target".    That would also serve the same purpose without the requirement of 'triple tap'.

 

Just my .02

 

..........Widder

 

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Its good that the instructions covered this.

 

If I were to write a stage like this, I would just write.... "put atleast 3 rounds on each target".    That would also serve the same purpose without the requirement of 'triple tap'.

 

Just my .02

 

..........Widder

 

Or...

 

Engage each target 3 times putting the 10th round on R2.

 

In other words avoid the use of the phrase triple tap.

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

...and you get to a quad tap with a triple tap. Thats what im saying. Shots are cumulative. It doesnt stay a triple tap if ya hit it again. It changes to a quad tap. You cant fraw a line after the triple and just say ok, this shot is by itself dont add it to the three before it. Well, unless you engaged a different target after the 3 and before the next one. Thatd be "drawing a line between them".

 

And THIS is where the two sides of the discussion part ways.  The fact that you put a fourth shot on the target doesn't erase the fact that a triple tap was performed.  And since a triple tap was performed, the stage instructions were completed.

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5 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

And THIS is where the two sides of the discussion part ways.  The fact that you put a fourth shot on the target doesn't erase the fact that a triple tap was performed.  And since a triple tap was performed, the stage instructions were completed.

Actually it does. Otherwise you could earn a P for shooting 2 double taps. Which was also in a pwb example. Smell what I'm cooking?

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Or...

 

Engage each target 3 times putting the 10th round on R2.

 

In other words avoid the use of the phrase triple tap.

But then you haven’t put 3 rounds on each target...you’ve put 4 on one of them. 

 

Ill just lob the last round at the berm, take my miss and avoid all the drama. LOL. 

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If the stage instructions are written with the result being that the match officials and shooters are split on how to shoot the stage and fulfill the instructions, with no clarification before the match starts, why would the shooter not get the benefit of doubt in his favor. As has been pointed out, this should have been figured out before the match when officials did the walk through.

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Rigidity in your thinking will stifle any creativity one may possess.  2 +2 will always equal four,  3 + 1 will always equal 4.  The stage instructions in their breakdown required 3 consecutive shots on each of 3 targets., plus one additional shot on the center target.   Written as 3 triple taps on 3 targets in any order.  It additionally required a single shot on the center target.  How is shooting it 111 - 222 - 333 - 2,  or 222 - 111 - 333 - 2, or even 333 - 222 - 111 -2, different from 111 - 333 - 222 - 2 in the fulfilment of the instructions?

 

The triple taps are either "any order" or they aren't.  If, as a stage writer, you don't want it shot in ANY ORDER, don't use that phrase.  SOMEONE will eventually surprise you and come up with a sequence you didn't imagine.   If you're arguin' that shooting the last triple tap on target 2 and also putting the last shot on target 2 doesn't constitute fulfillment of the two elements of the stage requirements, or somehow subverts those requirements, simply don't believe that "any order" means just that... any order.

 

It's sorta like stage instructions that call for the shooter to carry an item with them thru each shooting position.  Some folks will pick it up and carry it in their hand, then place it on the table at the next station... repeating as necessary;  while other, more free-thinking souls, will pick it up, put it in their pocket and leave it there.  Both methods fulfil the requirement... The former group will try to argue that their rigid, inflexible interpretation of the requirement is right... and penalize the second group.  Human interaction is always intertaining... even when it's frustrating.

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16 minutes ago, Griff said:

Rigidity in your thinking will stifle any creativity one may possess.  2 +2 will always equal four,  3 + 1 will always equal 4.  The stage instructions in their breakdown required 3 consecutive shots on each of 3 targets., plus one additional shot on the center target.   Written as 3 triple taps on 3 targets in any order.  It additionally required a single shot on the center target.  How is shooting it 111 - 222 - 333 - 2,  or 222 - 111 - 333 - 2, or even 333 - 222 - 111 -2, different from 111 - 333 - 222 - 2 in the fulfilment of the instructions?

 

The triple taps are either "any order" or they aren't.  If, as a stage writer, you don't want it shot in ANY ORDER, don't use that phrase.  SOMEONE will eventually surprise you and come up with a sequence you didn't imagine.   If you're arguin' that shooting the last triple tap on target 2 and also putting the last shot on target 2 doesn't constitute fulfillment of the two elements of the stage requirements, or somehow subverts those requirements, simply don't believe that "any order" means just that... any order.

 

It's sorta like stage instructions that call for the shooter to carry an item with them thru each shooting position.  Some folks will pick it up and carry it in their hand, then place it on the table at the next station... repeating as necessary;  while other, more free-thinking souls, will pick it up, put it in their pocket and leave it there.  Both methods fulfil the requirement... The former group will try to argue that their rigid, inflexible interpretation of the requirement is right... and penalize the second group.  Human interaction is always intertaining... even when it's frustrating.

The last of your examples shows 4 consecutive shots on target 2...

 

Why are you insulting those that have an opinion that 4 consecutive shots on a single target negates the previous condition of a triple tap?

 

Free thinkers... Whatever...

 

Phantom

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My opinion is the reason we have so many "strict" stages is because of occurences just such as this. People learned how to count a long time ago and know what a double, triple, and quad tap is. They know. There are some people(keep in mind, I am NOT saying anyone on here that has commented) that think, well if I can get away with it, why not. Then there are people that want to just be the center of attention and cause uproar. Then there is people that actually think they triple tapped it and then single tapped it and Im fine with that. It doesnt mean I agree with them, but the last case I'm fine with. Its the first 2 types that cause all these restrictive stages and limits your ability to think through a stage and find the most efficient way to run it. As a duelist, that's my favorite part of the game. It's a lot more fun than having to take exact steps and fire an exact gun order, etc. The point I've been trying to make for the 1st 2 personality types is don't mess the game up for us. If you know what's right, shoot it right. Quit trying to technicality something to death, and enjoy the game!

Ok, time to eat!

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45 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If the stage instructions are written with the result being that the match officials and shooters are split on how to shoot the stage and fulfill the instructions, with no clarification before the match starts, why would the shooter not get the benefit of doubt in his favor. As has been pointed out, this should have been figured out before the match when officials did the walk through.

 

It was an incredibly small monthly match.  We had one posse of 6 people and another of 7.  We split to speed things up and get done before it got too hot. There was no walk through.  There really weren't any "match officials" as you would normally have.  We were the second posse to shoot the stage.  The question came up before we started so I asked the other posse marshal how they shot it.  He said they allowed the 3-3-4 so we did too. 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Engage each target 3 times putting the 10th round on R2.

 

In other words avoid the use of the phrase triple tap.

 

Phantom, 

 

I understand your reasoning here.  If you said this in an earlier post, then I missed it, but if you had I think we would have come to understanding earlier.

 

I think, though,  that the use of this phrase would need to be careful as well.  "Engage each target 3 times in any order" could imply a 9 round count rather than three triple taps.  I still say that whichever phrase is used the intent would need to be clearly defined in the read through of the stage by the PM before the stage is started.  Not doing so would start needless arguments after someone shoots the stage differently than someone who went before, wouldn't you agree?

 

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Rigidity in your thinking will stifle any creativity one may possess.  2 +2 will always equal four,  3 + 1 will always equal 4.  The stage instructions in their breakdown required 3 consecutive shots on each of 3 targets., plus one additional shot on the center target.   Written as 3 triple taps on 3 targets in any order.  It additionally required a single shot on the center target.  How is shooting it 111 - 222 - 333 - 2,  or 222 - 111 - 333 - 2, or even 333 - 222 - 111 -2, different from 111 - 333 - 222 - 2 in the fulfilment of the instructions?

 

The triple taps are either "any order" or they aren't.  If, as a stage writer, you don't want it shot in ANY ORDER, don't use that phrase.  SOMEONE will eventually surprise you and come up with a sequence you didn't imagine.   If you're arguin' that shooting the last triple tap on target 2 and also putting the last shot on target 2 doesn't constitute fulfillment of the two elements of the stage requirements, or somehow subverts those requirements, simply don't believe that "any order" means just that... any order.

 

It's sorta like stage instructions that call for the shooter to carry an item with them thru each shooting position.  Some folks will pick it up and carry it in their hand, then place it on the table at the next station... repeating as necessary;  while other, more free-thinking souls, will pick it up, put it in their pocket and leave it there.  Both methods fulfil the requirement... The former group will try to argue that their rigid, inflexible interpretation of the requirement is right... and penalize the second group.  Human interaction is always intertaining... even when it's frustrating.

 

Griff,

 

Phantom finally explained his reasoning in a previous post.  He's saying because the stage instructions called for a "Triple Tap" and NOT "Engage each target three times " that putting 4 shots on the center target at the end violates the instruction as that would be considered a quad tap as the only definition available to that stage based on the description as written.

 

I also think he's being a bit antagonistic when he tries to force that view on those that see it a 3+1 opportunity, but I get the sense that it's not always intentional just the way he writes.

 

 

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Howdy,

 

I have shot the said scenario on several occasions at different venues. Clarification was always made that (4) shots on the middle target would earn a procedural. Therefore, since we were given clarification at the local matches and y'all did not receive clarification, our clarification trumps you're non-clarification and since Trump is President we are correct in our collective understanding of the triple tap (OOO) vs  the quadruple tap (OOOO) befuddlement. I hope this completely and unequivocally clears up any misunderstanding.:rolleyes:

Hasta Luego, Keystone

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Keystone, 

 

I see the reasoning Phantom is using also... I just happen to believe that the "in ANY order" means just that.  By saying you can't triple tap the middle target last, means you can't triple tap in any order.  Thereby altering the instructions.   I apologize to the the Forum for my earlier comments...

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12 minutes ago, Griff said:

Keystone, 

 

I see the reasoning Phantom is using also... I just happen to believe that the "in ANY order" means just that.  By saying you can't triple tap the middle target last, means you can't triple tap in any order.  Thereby altering the instructions.   I apologize to the the Forum for my earlier comments...

 

Howdy Griff.

I ain't talked to anyone officially about this but I would bet the ROC (whether they make an official comment or not) would 

probably agree with you.

 

My interpretation is different, but I can understand the reasoning behind the 3+1 thinking.

 

...........Widder

 

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It's like a car wreck that you have slow down and look at.  I just can't stop reading.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

It's like a car wreck that you have slow down and look at.  I just can't stop reading.

 

 

 

Do you just stare... Or do you contribute and help?

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