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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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 Everybody is entitled to their own opinion 

 

 There has been plenty of time for an official response 

 

 Until I see it in blue ink both approaches are acceptable to me 

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Okay, consider this...


There are 8 shotgun targets.  Stage instructions say that repeating shotguns may fully load their magazines on the clock.

 

Shotgun target 1 throws up a clay target when it falls.  Said clay is target 2.

Shotgun target 3 throws up a clay target when it falls.  Said clay is target 4.

Shotgun targets 5, 6, 7, and 8 are clay targets on a stand.

 

Stage instructions say, "Successfully engage any 6 of the 8 targets in any order."

 

Most shooters go 1, 2, 3,4, and then as many of 5 thru 8 as needed.

 

One shooter goes up, stokes his 97 and goes 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1.  Ignoring the flyers.  Basic reaction was "Why didn't I think of that?"

 

Stage instructions say, triple tap 3 targets, any order, then place 10th shot on center target.

 

T1 gets 3, T3 gets 3, T2 get 3.  That's triple tapping 3 targets in a specific order.  Then T2 gets 1.   How is that not following the stage directions as written?

 

If you want to get pedantic, it's not a quad tap.   It's  a triple tap followed by a single tap.

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1 hour ago, Wyatt said:

 Everybody is entitled to their own opinion 

 

 There has been plenty of time for an official response 

 

 Until I see it in blue ink both approaches are acceptable to me 

 

Howdy Wyatt.

I doubt any 'blue ink' will chime in on this.

Its basically a good civil discussion on the manner which some clubs will handle certain stage instructions and other club have a different interpretation.

 

I would be curious to know if WR or EOT had this stage and used the exact same instructions, what would be their interpretation?   Knowing that could help establish a precedent for more (or all) clubs to be on the same page.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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 How do Widder

 

 Without better instructions it would still be just an opinion offered by WR or EOT officials.  The trouble with the argument is that one side wants to penalize the shooter for not following an opinion.

 

 I’ve been thinking about… Can anybody offer a scenario where it would be advantageous to shoot outside, outside, middle?

 

 

 

 

 Still having fun with the 41? 

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Wyatt,

YEP, still burning lead with that model 41.   Great pistol.

 

..........Widder

 

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9 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

 How do Widder

 

 Without better instructions it would still be just an opinion offered by WR or EOT officials.  The trouble with the argument is that one side wants to penalize the shooter for not following an opinion.

 

 I’ve been thinking about… Can anybody offer a scenario where it would be advantageous to shoot outside, outside, middle?

 

 

 

 

 Still having fun with the 41? 

It would be advantageous if the targets were spread widely across the bay. Only having 3 target acquisitions instead of 4 with long swings between could make a small difference. That being said a good stage writer could if they wanted to, make it clear that it was not allowed. 

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56 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Stage instructions say, triple tap 3 targets, any order, then place 10th shot on center target.

 

T1 gets 3, T3 gets 3, T2 get 3.  That's triple tapping 3 targets in a specific order.  Then T2 gets 1.   How is that not following the stage directions as written?

 

 

Because thats not a triple tap. It is until you put the fourth round on it. Then its a quad tap. When you do a double tap and hit it again thats called a triple tap. 

So do you deserve a p for the first 2 targets? After all, you didnt triple tap those, you double tapped them and then hit it again. See what Im sayin?

 

And no, if Im being padantic its a quad tap. Padantic is synonymous with precise.

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There does seem to be a regional aspect to the way these instructions are interpreted.  Way over here the instructions would be interpreted to mean that the 4th round on the center target is the smart way to shoot it.  The folks from TN and Ky see it differently, no problem (oh, and Phantom).  I believe that larger matches like WR or EoT would have the instructions worded differently. Either way, if a shooter shot it with 4 rounds on the center target and the berm marshal said, "Yep, you can shoot it that way", everybody gladly would.  

 

Personally, if I wanted no quad taps on this stage, I would have written, "no quad taps".  Just adding three words to the description would have eliminated any misunderstanding).  Clear stage writing is a beautiful thing.

 

 (I just wrote a stage last month that was 10 on three targets...three rounds on each target, 10th round in the center, no triple taps.)  

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On 9/8/2018 at 7:39 PM, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

 

Absolutely.  Key words 'in any order...then'

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18 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Because thats not a triple tap. It is until you put the fourth round on it. Then its a quad tap. When you do a double tap and hit it again thats called a triple tap. 

So do you deserve a p for the first 2 targets? After all, you didnt triple tap those, you double tapped them and then hit it again. See what Im sayin?

 

And no, if Im being padantic its a quad tap. Padantic is synonymous with precise.

 

So, earlier you said if the stage said, "no double-taps" that you couldn't triple-tap, implying that, on the way to a triple-tap you had to first double-tap.

 

But, in this case, when you're putting four rounds on one target, you are NOT first triple-tapping on your way to a quad-tap. 

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not around here, from my experience anyhow

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12 minutes ago, McCandless said:

  Clear stage writing is a beautiful thing.

 

  

 

Well that's the thing.   I think we can all agree, to an extent, that the stage as written is not as clear as it should be.   We can also agree that if it written differently, then all of this discussion would be moot.  

 

But, we are dealing with it as written, and that's the kicker.  That so many people can define what is actually written to mean different things suggests that it's not as well written as it could be.

 

And I still maintain that it's a triple tap, followed by placing a single shot on the same target, not a quad tap.   The "any order" allows for this interpretation.  The lack of "no quad taps" also allows for it.   We have all seen stages where the sequence is something like "sweep the targets in any order, either direction, twice, no double taps."  That means you can't go 1 2 3 4 5  5 4 3 2 1   But that's not here.   Therefore 3 on 1  3 on 3   3 on 2   1 on 2 is okay.   It's three shots followed by one shot that all happen to go to the same target.   Not 4 on 1.

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We shot this exact scenario this weekend. Triple tap 3 targets in any order, then put the last round on the center target. The Match Director, who wrote the stages ,told the Posse Marshals that it can be shot as P1,P3, P2 with the last round on P2. Or any combination of shooting the P targets as long as there were 3-triple taps on each then the 10th round goes on the center target, P2. So as we all understand it, the stage writer can write a stage to be shot in any way as long as it is safe.

Starting position;  shotgun in hand, loaded with 2 roads, action closed, ready to fire.

And I agree with Creeker, the instructions say triple tap each target and then put 1 round on the center target. 2 separate instructions.

Ike

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Please enlighten all us as to the definition of a quad-tap.

 

You can't just disregard the definition to suit your desire.

 

And quit with the lengthy explanations. You're not arguing a car before the Supreme Court.

 

Phantom

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Please enlighten all us as to the definition of a quad-tap.

 

You can't just disregard the definition to suit your desire.

 

And quit with the lengthy explanations. You're not arguing a case before the Supreme Court.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Stump Water said:

 

So, earlier you said if the stage said, "no double-taps" that you couldn't triple-tap, implying that, on the way to a triple-tap you had to first double-tap.

 

But, in this case, when you're putting four rounds on one target, you are NOT first triple-tapping on your way to a quad-tap. 

No. Look at my explanation. Its all there.

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1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

 

Personally, if I wanted no quad taps on this stage, I would have written, "no quad taps".  

Would you also say no double taps, or etc? I think by saying this, you do realize it is a quad tap.

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10 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

   I'm glad you bring this up. This is one of those times you will hear "NO DOUBLE TAPS". Also, goes without saying no triple taps or ya P on it. 

    Why is there a need to say no double taps? To keep you from doing the DIRTY sweep. Why do they call it the dirty sweep? Cause if you dont specify, people(including me) will sweep it that way. The definition of a triple tap means you dont have to tell the shooter every little thing they cant do in the other case. 

 

Tennessee,

 

This is exactly why 4  LLL, RRR, CCCC would be perfectly acceptable for these stage instructions.  The instructions *DID NOT* say Triple tap sweep from either end THEN place 10 round on center, nor did it say Triple tap in any order, then place 10 on center NO QUAD Taps.  It simply said, triple tap in any order then put the 10th round on the center target.

 

Yes, this does mean than the last 4 rounds constitute a "Quad Sweep" however because the stage instructions actually DON'T EXCLUDE that from happening, it should not create a P in this case.

 

To further back up Fast in this case, I'll point out that here when state instructions like this come up the question is ALWAYS ASKED during the stage description, so it is always addressed. (If I don't ask the question, Rapid will)  Plus when Fast writes a stage that allows for a "dirty" finish he tends to make that clear.

 

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Just now, Red Eye Jim said:

 

Tennessee,

 

This is exactly why 4  LLL, RRR, CCCC would be perfectly acceptable for these stage instructions.  The instructions *DID NOT* say Triple tap sweep from either end THEN place 10 round on center, nor did it say Triple tap in any order, then place 10 on center NO QUAD Taps.  It simply said, triple tap in any order then put the 10th round on the center target.

 

Yes, this does mean than the last 4 rounds constitute a "Quad Sweep" however because the stage instructions actually DON'T EXCLUDE that from happening, it should not create a P in this case.

 

To further back up Fast in this case, I'll point out that here when state instructions like this come up the question is ALWAYS ASKED during the stage description, so it is always addressed. (If I don't ask the question, Rapid will)  Plus when Fast writes a stage that allows for a "dirty" finish he tends to make that clear.

 

Too funny... The logic used to allow a quad tap when the instructions clearly state triple taps...

 

How folks use one aspect of the instructions to negate other parts of the instructions is fascinating. 

 

Triple taps were the first requirement. Tenth round on center target was the second. If the shooter takes the freedom to shoot in any order, do so without violating either requirement. 

 

Why do some of you folks think it's okay to toss out a stage requirement??

 

Phantom

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8 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

Tennessee,

 

This is exactly why 4  LLL, RRR, CCCC would be perfectly acceptable for these stage instructions.  The instructions *DID NOT* say Triple tap sweep from either end THEN place 10 round on center, nor did it say Triple tap in any order, then place 10 on center NO QUAD Taps.  It simply said, triple tap in any order then put the 10th round on the center target.

 

Yes, this does mean than the last 4 rounds constitute a "Quad Sweep" however because the stage instructions actually DON'T EXCLUDE that from happening, it should not create a P in this case.

 

To further back up Fast in this case, I'll point out that here when state instructions like this come up the question is ALWAYS ASKED during the stage description, so it is always addressed. (If I don't ask the question, Rapid will)  Plus when Fast writes a stage that allows for a "dirty" finish he tends to make that clear.

 

Too funny... The logic used to allow a quad tap when the instructions clearly state triple taps...

 

How folks use one aspect of the instructions to negate other parts of the instructions is fascinating. 

 

Triple taps were the first requirement. Tenth round on center target was the second. If the shooter takes the freedom to shoot in any order, do so without violating either requirement. 

 

Why do some of you folks think it's okay to toss out a stage requirement??

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Please enlighten all us as to the definition of a quad-tap.

 

You can't just disregard the definition to suit your desire.

 

And quit with the lengthy explanations. You're not arguing a case before the Supreme Court.

 

Phantom

 

It is a quad tap.  The instructions don't exclude it so it's far game.

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On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:39 PM, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

 

That says it all in my book, I personally read that as two separate instructions.  To me that means you can sweep or not sweep, center target then outside targets, outside targets then center target any of these would be acceptable. Does not matter as long as all three targets were triple tapped before engaging the next target.  The center target was specified as the 10th round dump target.  Does that mean if you choose to shoot the center target last and dump the 10th round there as specified it is a quad tap? yeah it sure does.  But the stage instructions do not say any different other than "triple tap target in any order, put tenth shot on center target".  But I can see and understand both sides.  But it seems the simple solution was already met from what I've read.  Stage clarification could not be met so all shooters were able to shoot it that way.  problem solved.  Stage writers should be clear enough in their instructions so a "what if" or "it does not specify this" scenario does not happen.  But stage writers are human, they make mistakes just like the rest of us.  I made my share of mistakes especially as a stage writer years ago.  But again, as far as I see given the scenario, it was handled well. problem solved.

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Too funny... The logic used to allow a quad tap when the instructions clearly state triple taps...

 

How folks use one aspect of the instructions to negate other parts of the instructions is fascinating. 

 

Triple taps were the first requirement. Tenth round on center target was the second. If the shooter takes the freedom to shoot in any order, do so without violating either requirement. 

 

Why do some of you folks think it's okay to toss out a stage requirement??

 

Phantom

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I would note however that if I were to shoot in your neck of the woods I would ask for clarification to find out that it is really a sweep in either direction.

 

Oh I guess the besides my other points, the instruction "triple tap in any order as long as center is not last" would also clarify the instruction to meet your definition.

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19 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

It is a quad tap.  The instructions don't exclude it so it's far game.

It doesn't exclude a 5 tap either, so can ya do that?

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10 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I would note however that if I were to shoot in your neck of the woods I would ask for clarification to find out that it is really a sweep in either direction.

 

 

It never said you have to sweep. You can put 3 in center 3 on either end, 3 on other end and then 1 in the center.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Would you also say no double taps, or etc? I think by saying this, you do realize it is a quad tap.

I'm saying that there seems to be some regional differences in the way a description like this is understood and shot.  Like Null N' Void (who shoots in the same neck o' the woods I do), said.  With those instructions, a quad tap on the center target is the usual way of shooting it.  Its looked at as a Triple Tap + 1.  If I were writing that stage here and didn't want that to occur, I would write "no quad taps".  I'm am not disagreeing with you, just saying that there seems to be different understandings of the way the stage should be shot.  (obviously, because we're at 3 pages already)  

 

During the reading of the stage,  I'm sure someone would be asking "can we dump 4 on the center target?"  At that point at any match it would have to be clarified to go forward, or you'd have different posses shooting it differently.  At a major match the Berm Marshal would then be the one to clarify it, or getting in touch with the match director if he did not have the answer.   During the walk through, this would already have been covered.

 

I would never write a description this vague.

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

No. Look at my explanation. Its all there.

 

I did.

 

19 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Let me try a different approach. How is it possible to perform a quad tap without first performing a triple tap? 

 

19 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Ya can't. But the second you put the fourth round on there, it aint a triple tap anymore. 

 

So, as soon as the 4th round hits the target the triple-tap vanishes.

 

16 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

On a stage that calls for no double taps, would you allow a triple tap?

 

16 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, because that means shoot the target 1 time. You cant shoot it 3 times without first shooting it 2 times.

 

Here you say you can't shoot a triple-tap without first shooting a double-tap.   But, if you follow your logic above, the double-tap should have vanished when the 3rd round hit the target because, "It ain't a double-tap anymore".

 

Which is it?

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

It doesn't exclude a 5 tap either, so can ya do that?

 

This is a stupid argument.  If 5 shots went on any target that would be a P.  Follow the diagram.

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Just now, Red Eye Jim said:

 

This is a stupid argument.  If 5 shots went on any target that would be a P.  Follow the diagram.

Since you got the first dig, I guess I can reply. Is it only a stupid argument when it suits your purpose? It's not a stupid argument just because someone is ignorant of the point.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

It never said you have to sweep. You can put 3 in center 3 on either end, 3 on other end and then 1 in the center.

 

And I followed that with another post.  I would sweep because that would likely be the best way for me to fire the string.

 

To simplify this argument let's follow the diagram under the assumption that the shooter shot LLL, RRR, CCCC with no misses:

 

"Did the Shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?"

 

Yes

 

"Assess No Misses"

 

"Did the Shooter engage the targets in the correct order?"  (This is where we are going to disagree, and at this point the Match director is going to have to get involved but like I've always said in all my posts to this thread, I *ALWAYS* get a clarification during the stage description before I shoot like this, so If I shot it this way it would be:)

 

Yes

 

"No Further Call"

 

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1 hour ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

It is a quad tap.  The instructions don't exclude it so it's far game.

So you disregard the specific instruction to triple tap

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1 hour ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I would note however that if I were to shoot in your neck of the woods I would ask for clarification to find out that it is really a sweep in either direction.

 

Oh I guess the besides my other points, the instruction "triple tap in any order as long as center is not last" would also clarify the instruction to meet your definition.

Define quad tap.

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Since you got the first dig, I guess I can reply. Is it only a stupid argument when it suits your purpose? It's not a stupid argument just because someone is ignorant of the point.

 

I said it was stupid because in the case of 5 shots on any target changes the answer to the question, "Did the Shooter Engage the Target in the Correct order?" is no.  I don't know anyone in this thread that said that the answer to that question is Yes.

 

The argument in question does shooting LLL RRR CCC C (I put the space in there only to clarify where we disagree) is in how we answer that question.

 

Your argument, which I understand, but disagree with, is that 3+1 = 4 and therefore a quad which isn't stated so is therefore a no.

 

My argument is that 3+1 is Okay because it a Triple tap *AND* 1 on the center target which meets the requirements as stated and therefore a yes.

 

The only person who can actually say which one of us is right is the Match Director of the match in question, who hopefully clarified that with the Posse Marshal before the shoot began and the answer was clearly made available to those who asked during the stage description before ANYONE put a shot downrange.

 

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