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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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The difference in opinion is fascinating and entertaining! I'm not about to try to change anyone's minds nor do I care to. They are only opinions. But out of curiosity, I do have a couple questions for those that believe the scenario would be quad tapping.

 

Is there anything that could be written after asking for a triple tap that would allow you to shoot a target that was triple tapped with the next round if you choose to without changing it from being a triple tap? A way of ending the first instructions so they don't influence the second set.

 

Also, what if there were only one set of targets for rifle and pistol. If someone shot rifle first, correctly ending on the center target, would he not be allowed to start pistols on the center target? When would it naturaly end? Just at the end of the stage? I assume if you ended a stage on a target and used the same targets for the next stage, no one would think it could continue to accumulate if you started with the same target? 

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So you disregard the specific instruction to triple tap

 

No, I interpreted the instruction to triple tap so that I would not have to change targets to satisfy the requirement to place the 10th round on the center target.

 

As I just pointed out in my previous reply, the only person who can actually say which one of us is right is the Match Director of the match in question, who hopefully clarified that with the Posse Marshal before the shoot began and the answer was clearly made available to those who asked during the stage description before ANYONE put a shot downrange.

 

I guarantee that several folks would have the same thought on any posse.  If someone else didn't ask for clarification I would.

 

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At my club, this would have been settled at the walk through. Question about shooting the center target last with 4 shots would have been asked and stage would have been re-written if the answer was no. Or The PM would say yes you can, or no you can't, put shoot the center target last with 4 shots, when reading stage to the posse.

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7 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said:

 

No, I interpreted the instruction to triple tap so that I would not have to change targets to satisfy the requirement to place the 10th round on the center target.

 

As I just pointed out in my previous reply, the only person who can actually say which one of us is right is the Match Director of the match in question, who hopefully clarified that with the Posse Marshal before the shoot began and the answer was clearly made available to those who asked during the stage description before ANYONE put a shot downrange.

 

I guarantee that several folks would have the same thought on any posse.  If someone else didn't ask for clarification I would.

 

Yea... Apparently there are a lot of folks that don't know the difference between a triple tap and a quad tap.

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Just now, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

At my club, this would have been settled at the walk through. Question about shooting the center target last with 4 shots would have been asked and stage would have been re-written if the answer was no. Or The PM would say yes you can, or no you can't, put shoot the center target last with 4 shots, when reading stage to the posse.

 

+1. In case my other posts were not clear.

 

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yea... Apparently there are a lot of folks that don't know the difference between a triple tap and a quad tap.

 

:rolleyes:

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A quad tap is when the instructions tell you to place 4 shots on the same target.

 

A Triple tap is when the instructions tell you to place 3 shots on the same target.

 

In the example we are discussing, we are told to triple tap 3 targets in any order.  We are not told the center target can not be the last target triple tapped.

 

After we have triple tapped all three targets, we are told to place 1 shot on the center target.

 

While if you shoot LLL, RRR, CCC, C you wind up with 4 consecutive shots on the center target, you still triple tapped it, following it up with a single shot to the same target.   Is it splitting hairs?  Absotively, but the phrase ANY ORDER, makes it okay.

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OR. look at it this way...

 

Rifle loaded with 9 rounds.   Triple tap the 3 targets any order.  Load one more and shoot the center target.

 

Shooter chooses the following order  LLL RRR CCC.  Reloads 1 and shoots C.   Why would having all 10 rounds loaded be different from having to reload 1?

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56 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

The difference in opinion is fascinating and entertaining! I'm not about to try to change anyone's minds nor do I care to. They are only opinions. But out of curiosity, I do have a couple questions for those that believe the scenario would be quad tapping.

 

Is there anything that could be written after asking for a triple tap that would allow you to shoot a target that was triple tapped with the next round if you choose to without changing it from being a triple tap? A way of ending the first instructions so they don't influence the second set.

 

Also, what if there were only one set of targets for rifle and pistol. If someone shot rifle first, correctly ending on the center target, would he not be allowed to start pistols on the center target? When would it naturaly end? Just at the end of the stage? I assume if you ended a stage on a target and used the same targets for the next stage, no one would think it could continue to accumulate if you started with the same target? 

Firing string. That is what stops it in general. Also, the engagement of a different target. The ONLY way the triple tap can be followed by another shot and not correctly earn a p is THIS: one of the other targets to engage falls down i.e. prop failure. At which time you are alliwed to engage a different target(handbook doesnt specify which target you can substitute for the failed one, it just says you can. That scenario it wouldnt get you a p for quad tapping.

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47 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Firing string. That is what stops it in general.

Firing string.  Exactly.

Don't add conditions. 

Don't change the words.

Follow the instructions EXACTLY as they were written and as they apply to the directed firing string.

 

Firing string #1.

Triple tap the targets any order.

Upon completion of firing string #1.

Engage the center target with one round.

 

The first sentence ended (without specific conditions) triple tap - any order

That instruction does not impose restrictions upon the next.

They are separate thoughts and orders.

 

Instructions are linear.

Once an instruction is satisfied; 

It gives way to allow the NEXT instruction to be followed.

 

Driving on the highway.

Speed limit 55

Next sign; speed limit 65

 

Are you going to claim that I can't accelerate as the prior instruction told me something different?

 

Can't drive 65... 

The prior sign said go 55 and nothing changes that until I leave this specific stretch of road.

 

We all understand the next instruction supercedes and makes irrelevant the prior. 

I complied with the first instruction; 55mph (triple taps - any order) when it  was applicable and when the instruction changed to 65mph (single tap) ; I complied with that instruction.

 

Same road.  Different expectation. 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Shots are cumulative...

 

So you say - in one scenario, but not the other

 

In the OP scenario, once the 4th round hit the target the triple-tap becomes a quad-tap.   In other words, there was no pause or measurable instance between the 3rd & 4th round where a triple-tap occurred.  So you say the shooter did not triple-tap the target and penalize him.

 

However, in a "no double-taps allowed" scenario, if the shooter puts three consecutive rounds on one target then you claim that there is a pause or measurable instance between the 2nd and 3rd rounds where you would declare a double-tap occurred and penalize the shooter.

 

You can't have it both ways.  

  

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

OR. look at it this way...

 

Rifle loaded with 9 rounds.   Triple tap the 3 targets any order.  Load one more and shoot the center target.

 

Shooter chooses the following order  LLL RRR CCC.  Reloads 1 and shoots C.   Why would having all 10 rounds loaded be different from having to reload 1?

It aint no difference. Both would be a p.

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6 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

So you say - in one scenario, but not the other

 

In the OP scenario, once the 4th round hit the target the triple-tap becomes a quad-tap.   In other words, there was no pause or measurable instance between the 3rd & 4th round where a triple-tap occurred.  So you say the shooter did not triple-tap the target and penalize him.

 

However, in a "no double-taps allowed" scenario, if the shooter puts three consecutive rounds on one target then you claim that there is a pause or measurable instance between the 2nd and 3rd rounds where you would declare a double-tap occurred and penalize the shooter.

 

You can't have it both ways.  

  

Yeah ya can. Both are common sense. On one, you passed a triple tap which was asked for to make a quad tap which was not aked for. P. You have triple tapped twice and quad tapped once. Had you not passed it youd have been fine.

One the other you passed a double tap which is forbidden to get to your triple tap. P

Hope this helps

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30 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Firing string.  Exactly.

Don't add conditions. 

Don't change the words.

Follow the instructions EXACTLY as they were written and as they apply to the directed firing string.

 

Firing string #1.

Triple tap the targets any order.

Upon completion of firing string #1.

Engage the center target with one round.

 

The first sentence ended (without specific conditions) triple tap - any order

That instruction does not impose restrictions upon the next.

They are separate thoughts and orders.

 

Instructions are linear.

Once an instruction is satisfied; 

It gives way to allow the NEXT instruction to be followed.

 

Driving on the highway.

Speed limit 55

Next sign; speed limit 65

 

Are you going to claim that I can't accelerate as the prior instruction told me something different?

 

Can't drive 65... 

The prior sign said go 55 and nothing changes that until I leave this specific stretch of road.

 

We all understand the next instruction supercedes and makes irrelevant the prior. 

I complied with the first instruction; 55mph (triple taps - any order) when it  was applicable and when the instruction changed to 65mph (single tap) ; I complied with that instruction.

 

Same road.  Different expectation. 

Again. We aint driving. 

I think you should look up firing string as it partains to what we are talking about. Firing string is not the number of times you engage a target.

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Just because the instructions say "any order", doesn't give the shooter the ability to disregard other requirements/instruction for the stage.

 

Phantom

 

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Where does it say no quad taps?  I must have missed that.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Where does it say no quad taps?  I must have missed that.

 

 

You missed where it said triple taps????

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Nope.

 

What it said

Quote

 “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.” 

 

Breaking down what it said

Triple tap targets in any order

comma

put tenth shot on the center target

Two separate instructions.

 

it does not say

no quad taps

it does not say what target order to apply the triple taps, in fact, it says any order

any seeming to mean, well, any.  I could list them all out, but suffice it to say that 1.1.1.3.3.3.2.2.2 and 3.3.3.1.1.1.2.2.2 both fall under 'any'.

 

I've often heard and been told 'don't read something into instructions that isn't there.  

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Nope.

 

What it said

 

Breaking down what it said

Triple tap targets in any order

comma

put tenth shot on the center target

Two separate instructions.

 

it does not say

no quad taps

it does not say what target order to apply the triple taps, in fact, it says any order

any seeming to mean, well, any.  I could list them all out, but suffice it to say that 1.1.3.3.2.2 and 3.3.1.1.2.2 both fall under 'any'.

 

I've often heard and been told 'don't read something into instructions that isn't there.  

 

 

 

 

 

Four hits in a row on the same target is not a triple tap.. therefore you didn't fulfill the requirement to triple tap each target. 

 

Now don't get all upset and PM a Moderator.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Nope.

 

What it said

 

Breaking down what it said

Triple tap targets in any order

comma

put tenth shot on the center target

Two separate instructions.

 

it does not say

no quad taps

it does not say what target order to apply the triple taps, in fact, it says any order

any seeming to mean, well, any.  I could list them all out, but suffice it to say that 1.1.3.3.2.2 and 3.3.1.1.2.2 both fall under 'any'.

 

I've often heard and been told 'don't read something into instructions that isn't there.  

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, they don't fall under "any", because the 2nd part of those instructions say to put the 10th round on target 2. You have to put the tenth round on 2, therefore if you stop your triple taps on 2 you will p. because you never triple tapped target 2. You put 4 rounds in a row on it consecutively which is the definition of quad tap, not triple tap.

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Say I shoot it 1.1.1.3.3.3.2.2.2

 

As Creeker pointed out,  once the 3rd round hits target two, the triple tap is complete.  After that, you carry out the second instruction, put tenth round on the center target.

 

I've shot in ten or so states over the last ten years or so, and have shot stages with that instruction many times.  NEVER has it been disallowed to do your triple taps 1-3-2 and then put tenth round on 2.

 

I reckon maybe I'd best ask next time I see it.  I'd just hate to have folks who travel a bit have to question every stage over things that aren't even listed in the instructions.

 

 

 

 

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Four pages and climbing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

It aint no difference. Both would be a p. 

 

HOW?

 

Instructions say to triple tap all three targets in any order.

 

You shoot 111 333 222

 

You have followed the directions as written.

 

Instructions say to load 1 round

 

You do so, so you have followed the directions as written.

 

Instructions say to put 1 round on center target.

 

You shoot 2, which is the center target

 

You have followed the instructions as written.

 

You have taken all shots exactly as written.   How can that possibly be a P?

 

It can't!

 

Therefore, there is no way that shooting it 111 333 222 2 can be P just because there is no reload.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

HOW?

 

Instructions say to triple tap all three targets in any order.

 

You shoot 111 333 222

 

You have followed the directions as written.

 

Instructions say to load 1 round

 

You do so, so you have followed the directions as written.

 

Instructions say to put 1 round on center target.

 

You shoot 2, which is the center target

 

You have followed the instructions as written.

 

You have taken all shots exactly as written.   How can that possibly be a P?

 

It can't!

 

Therefore, there is no way that shooting it 111 333 222 2 can be P just because there is no reload.

 

 

Yep, it doesnt matter of you reload a rifle round or whistle dixie between the 3 hits and the 4th hit if no other target was engaged between the 2. P

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yep, it doesnt matter of you reload a rifle round or whistle dixie between the 3 hits and the 4th hit if no other target was engaged between the 2. P

 

How?   I triple tapped in any order, as per instructions.


Then I put 1 on the center target, as per instructions.

 

How can following the instructions get you a P?

 

In fact, by your interpretations, you can't shoot this stage without a P, because it is impossible to do the triple taps in ANY order.

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7 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

How?   I triple tapped in any order, as per instructions.


Then I put 1 on the center target, as per instructions.

 

How can following the instructions get you a P?

 

In fact, by your interpretations, you can't shoot this stage without a P, because it is impossible to do the triple taps in ANY order.

Because you didn't triple tap target 2. You quad tapped it.

 

Shoot it 1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3-3-2 or 2-2-2-1-1-1-3-3-3-2...or....

 

Phantom

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This reminds me of the "smart---" question often asked when the stage instructions say "Engage the 3 targets with 10 rounds, no double taps."

Someone always asks, "Can I triple tap them?"...answered by, "Only if you can do so without double-tapping on the way to the triple."

:P

 

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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Because you didn't triple tap target 2. You quad tapped it.

 

Shoot it 1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3-3-2 or 2-2-2-1-1-1-3-3-3-2...or....

 

Phantom

 

No, I didn't.   I triple tapped it.  Then I placed 1 shot on the center target.   That it happens to be the same target that I triple tapped last is irrelevant because I am allowed to triple tap the first three targets in ANY order.   If that phrase was not there, that you would be correct.  But it is, so I am.

 

If the stage instructions said, 9 rounds in rifle.  Triple tap the three targets in any order and then reload one and shoot any target, and then went...

 

111 222 333, reload, 3 because I was already aiming at it, would that be a P?  The instructions say any order, and then any target.

 

The original instructions say triple tap in any order, then a specific target.   It does not say that the specific target can't be the last one tripled. 

 

 

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Triple tapping is different than quad tapping.

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Obviously, as we are at 4 pages now, headed for 5 and I'm out of popcorn... a clarification, or a bit better stage writing, would have gone a long way.  I think I'll get something to drink now.

 

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13 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

No, I didn't.   I triple tapped it.  Then I placed 1 shot on the center target.   That it happens to be the same target that I triple tapped last is irrelevant because I am allowed to triple tap the first three targets in ANY order.   If that phrase was not there, that you would be correct.  But it is, so I am.

 

If the stage instructions said, 9 rounds in rifle.  Triple tap the three targets in any order and then reload one and shoot any target, and then went...

 

111 222 333, reload, 3 because I was already aiming at it, would that be a P?  The instructions say any order, and then any target.

 

The original instructions say triple tap in any order, then a specific target.   It does not say that the specific target can't be the last one tripled. 

 

 

Where did I say to put the last round on target 3????

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The question of double & triple tapping came up in a very early Wire thread, IIRC (so long ago that a search was futile).
One question was re a stage instruction to "Double-tap the three targets "in any order"."
In one example a shooter "double-tapped" the first target 3X with the first 6 shots, then DT'd targets #2 & #3.
I don't recall the "majority opinion" on THAT one.

:ph34r:
 

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12 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The question of double & triple tapping came up in a very early Wire thread, IIRC (so long ago that a search was futile).
One question was re a stage instruction to "Double-tap the three targets "in any order"."
In one example a shooter "double-tapped" the first target 3X with the first 6 shots, then DT'd targets #2 & #3.
I don't recall the "majority opinion" on THAT one.

:ph34r:
 

I can only imagine...

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No one has ask but I will:

 

PWB, given the exact wording that Shooting Bull posted on the stage description and given that the last 4 shots were put on target #2, what would you and/or the ROC consider the correct call?

 

I don't mind being wrong because I think its more important that we are all on the same page on this.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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