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Flash Pan Dan

Improper Etiquette?

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I have not done this but I would like to get some opinions on a type of protest I am thinking of initiating. In a previous thread the subject of complicated stages was brought up. In my opinion CAS is a shooting activity and not a puzzle. I have in the past mentioned to ROs that it would be nice to design simpler stages. When I show up to help set up and get a chance to design a stage I do so very simply. Folks seem to enjoy them.

 

 

Alas, I still see to many puzzles. What would you think of a posse' member who elected to sit out a stage and take the penalty time. I would still take care of all my posse' duties; scoring, manning the loading/unloading tables, etc. I just wouldn't shoot that stage.

 

 

If I found that I was sitting out too many stages I guess I'd have to find myself another club at which to shoot. May I have your opinions please?

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I have not done this but I would like to get some opinions on a type of protest I am thinking of initiating. In a previous thread the subject of complicated stages was brought up. In my opinion CAS is a shooting activity and not a puzzle. I have in the past mentioned to ROs that it would be nice to design simpler stages. When I show up to help set up and get a chance to design a stage I do so very simply. Folks seem to enjoy them.

 

 

Alas, I still see to many puzzles. What would you think of a posse' member who elected to sit out a stage and take the penalty time. I would still take care of all my posse' duties; scoring, manning the loading/unloading tables, etc. I just wouldn't shoot that stage.

 

 

If I found that I was sitting out too many stages I guess I'd have to find myself another club at which to shoot. May I have your opinions please?

 

I don't think I would think too highly of such an act. If you want to sit one out for safety reasons. or because you have gotten too hot or some such reason, that would be OK. I just don't think that because you might enjoy one stage as much as another is any reason to not shoot.

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It's just a game. Don't take it too seriously.

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In general I think that feedback should be given to the match director in private about things like this. Where I shoot, if some one did something like you are talking about, it would more likely make folks think badly about the protester than the stage writer.

 

YMMV

Grizz

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I have never had a stage that was so hard that I would sit out. I like shooting to much.Just My 2 cents

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Presumably, you are in it for the fun and not the money. If you would not have fun shooting the stage, I see no reason to shoot it.

 

Like any shooter, be polite and honest. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

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"you can only get one P."

------------

No procedural was committed.

 

If not shooting was not a safety issue or personal health issue but only a protest against stage instructions then a "Spirit of the Game" may be earned along with a DID NOT SHOOT / DNS score.

 

Not shooting because "I think this stage is too complicated" seems a bit thin to me.

 

There is always coaching available. Just like newer shooters who are just starting out. They are all complicated until they learn what's going on.

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I don't mean this to sound insulting but, what you're suggesting sounds more like a child throwing a temper tantrum. What I'd do is continue to complain, in a constructive manner, to the stage writer and/or match director. Try to get your fellow shooters to do the same if they feel the same as you. If that doesn't work, vote with your wallet by joining a different club. No reason on Earth you should be unhappy playing a game when there's other sand boxes to play in.

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This is a fun game. If you're not having fun then will you please leave so that the rest of us can continue playing?

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you can only get one P.

 

 

Yep.

Go ahead and shoot it.

If ya get a P. That is still better than not shooting it.

 

If this club has stages like this all the time. And you don't enjoy them.

Then why are you still shooting there. Vote with your feet and just not go at all.

Find a club that is more to your liking.

 

That is what I did. :)

I have to drive just a little farther. But its worth it.

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A better way to improve stage clarity is to volunteer to write some stages your-own-self.

 

Not shooting a stage will get you at least a DNS (did not shoot) score, which for Rank Scored matches, would set you pretty far back in the scoring, and for a Total Time match, would probably insure you finish last or close to it. Lots to give up to make a small point.

 

Also, you might want to visit other clubs - you might find another club or two shooting stages you enjoy more. Then again, you might find you are being too sensitive.

 

Wag more, bark less - a fine bumper sticker I keep seeing and smiling over.

 

Good luck, GJ

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"you can only get one P."

------------

No procedural was committed.

 

If not shooting was not a safety issue or personal health issue but only a protest against stage instructions then a "Spirit of the Game" may be earned along with a DID NOT SHOOT / DNS score.

 

Not shooting because "I think this stage is too complicated" seems a bit thin to me.

 

There is always coaching available. Just like newer shooters who are just starting out. They are all complicated until they learn what's going on.

 

I think he meant that if you mess up the complicated stage, you can only get one"P" per satge.

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From the rules concerning SOG:

 

"A “failure to engage” occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage

instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a

competitor “makes a mistake.”"

 

Sitting out a stage can hardly be called an attempt at a competitive advantage unless DNF is scored by time and the stage instructions are to run a mile before engaging targets.

 

The shooter is the customer. When I am a customer at my local eatery, I do not feel obligated to eat what ever is set before me. Politely leaving something uneaten will be taken with concern by the better establishments.

 

Cheers,

BJT

 

 

"you can only get one P."

------------

No procedural was committed.

 

If not shooting was not a safety issue or personal health issue but only a protest against stage instructions then a "Spirit of the Game" may be earned along with a DID NOT SHOOT / DNS score.

 

Not shooting because "I think this stage is too complicated" seems a bit thin to me.

 

There is always coaching available. Just like newer shooters who are just starting out. They are all complicated until they learn what's going on.

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you can only get one P.

 

 

+++1,

I don't guess you can give a couple of example of the stages you are unhappy about could you?

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Sitting out a stage ain't gonna make any difference that day, might as well shoot it the best you can. After the match talk the the club pres. or MD, ask if you can write more stages. We had one club that finally failed last year, we talked to the TG, Pres-MD many times and they never changed. The last time I was there it took 3hr to do 2 stages, I packed my gun cart and left. It was a shame too, started out as a good club, always enough shooters for two posses, in the end they were lucy to get 10 or 12. Many of us had to drive 2-2 1/2 hours more to a different club, but it was worth it for a decent match.

And alot can depend on what you consider to be a difficult stage, remember there are only so many mutliples of 5 and 10, I've seen some make too much out of shooting a sequence they are umfamiliar with. Do other shooters have the same opinion as you?? if so ask them to join you in a talk with the powers that be. Good Luck

 

Jefro :) Relax-Enjoy

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that would be very uncowboy like that is the name of the game to have complicated stages!

 

:)

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This is, in fact, a fun game ...and the OP is asking: what up when the stage writer makes it un-fun?

 

Good question. The suggestion to 'write your own' sounds great, but if the folks that run the show won't even listen to shooter suggestions, what makes you think they'll allow them to write stages?

 

If they aren't listening, and writing in the name of creating a 'challenging' shoot ....that's kinda messed up. Of course, I don't know the particulars, but I have seen something like it before.

 

We (shooters) are not guinea pigs. I'd rather not be tested on.

 

If it is convoluted, and un-fun...shooters will eventually start complaining and elect to un-participate.

 

Not the best way to run a business.

 

-Nate

 

PS- not everyone has 5-6 clubs nearby to choose from either.

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"you can only get one P."

------------

No procedural was committed.

 

If not shooting was not a safety issue or personal health issue but only a protest against stage instructions then a "Spirit of the Game" may be earned along with a DID NOT SHOOT / DNS score.

 

Not shooting because "I think this stage is too complicated" seems a bit thin to me.

 

There is always coaching available. Just like newer shooters who are just starting out. They are all complicated until they learn what's going on.

 

I may be wrong but I think what Duece meant was shoot it, have fun and don't worry about it, you can only get 1 "P" if you mess it up, which will be less than the penalty for not shooting a stage.

 

SCORING

It is recommended SASS matches be scored by an overall ranking system. This scoring system

equalizes the difference in stages and rewards the most consistent shooter. Using this system,

the recommended stage disqualification score is 999.00 seconds and the recommended match

disqualification score is 999.99 seconds on all stages. The recommended score for not finishing

a stage is a Stage Disqualification.

Other scoring systems may be used at state and local levels, such as overall time. If overall time

is used, a maximum allowed time for each stage should be calculated prior to the match to be

used as the disqualification score and maximum stage score. It is recommended the maximum

time allowed for a stage be a total of all the available miss penalties plus 30 seconds.

SASS Sanctioned Championships at the State level or higher may not sell or incorporate in any

other manner any score enhancing items such as “Free Misses” or “Do-Overs.”

 

This is from RO 2.

 

I would talk to the match director and if I thought they were consistently writing overly complicated stages I might look for somewhere else to shoot.

 

Just from my experience first I'd talk to some of the Top Shooters and ask them to explain the stage. Some stages I've thought were complicated, were not that bad after getting someone else's input on it.

 

 

IMHO

Randy

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you can only get one P.

 

 

Yup - What Deuce said...

 

:)

"What? I shot the stage wrong?

Are you sure?

I was almost positive the stage instructions said dump 10 rounds on the closest pistol target - then 10 on the closest rifle target and then engage the shotgun targets.

I guess I earned that P"

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If they won't listen to your words, they won't pay any attention to any sort of protest. They think they're right and no amount of you being right is going to change their mind. If you have other venues to shoot, shoot there and leave this one behind.

 

It should be noted that even good clubs lose their minds occasionally. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Dang it, only one s in occasionally. :)

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"sitting out a stage" just 'cause you didn't like the way it was written would probably get you thought of as a jackass most places...everybody else has to shoot the same stages in the match, so you might as well just cowboy up and shoot the thing for better or worse.

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I would not think alot of a person that sat out just because they did not like the stage. If it was me I would just as the TO to coach me through it or just take my time. I like having to do something different once in a while. It makes you think. But then I have never seen a stage that I did not like. I like shooting too much. Have I had ones that I really had to think about sure! but I would never think about not shooting it. But then I have had the stages that are the same old same old and I would much rather have something different once in a while.

 

YMMV

 

Painted Filly

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I think that this kind of thing (sitting out a stage) would reflect pretty poorly on anyone who did it as a form of protest. As long as the stage is not dangerous (safety first) it is a problem common to all and you should shoot it. After all, what makes you so special? You didn't like the stage? Then get in and volunteer to write stages and set up matches. Sitting it out would just make a shooter look like a cry baby. If you don't like shooting with that club and everyone else is happy, that is your problem, not theirs. Your best solution in that case is find someone who does what you like and shoot with them.

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I have a hard time thinking of someone setting out a stage under protest.. just doesn't seem the cowboy way...

If the stage is too complicated...

Ask the RO/TO that you'll be looking for instructions during the stage...

I'm sure he'll be glad to oblige... it may slow you down a little but you can still shoot the stage and hopefully have fun.. :) without having to worry the old brain quite so much with complicated stages.

I kinda think that if other shooters asked the RO/TO for the same help... well maybe the club would get the hint..

If no one else asks for help.. doesn't mean your wrong.. just ask and ye shall receive... Help that is..

 

At our local club our last annual match of the year is called "Twisted Sister"

They are all designed to be complicated stages just waiting to give you a "P".. it's a fun shoot..

We don't complain... we just shoot and have fun.. We had a stage a few years back at this shoot that the RO had to

tell every shooter where the next shot went on almost every gun.. It was a slow process but still had fun..

 

Rance :lol:

Thinkin' relax have fun

Oh yeah... at the Twisted Sister Matches... they still don't give a way a Cadillac's... Who would a thunk it? :mellow:

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We shoot five stages in a match and try to have them vary from "stand n' blast" to more challenging with our Polish Plate Rack and Texas Star. But we don't try to make them complicated or confusing. We don't want "P" traps.

 

We even had a special match on the fifth Saturday of July last year which was ALL very challenging stages with the Polish Plate Rack, three Texas Stars, a lot of KD targets, pop up clay birds, rolling targets, swinging targets etc. There was not a single regular steel target on a stand in the whole match.

 

Here's a link to the stages on that match. Bigfork Contraption Match

 

A friend and I put it on for those of us who like those kind of stages. We expected a small turnout as not everyone likes stages like that but we had 24 shooters which is as many as we have for our regular matches. Many said it was the most fun they had all year. However, I don't think regular matches should be constructed this way.

 

I guess my feeling is if you don't like a stage say so in a constructive manner.

 

Sage Creek Gus

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I have not done this but I would like to get some opinions on a type of protest I am thinking of initiating. In a previous thread the subject of complicated stages was brought up. In my opinion CAS is a shooting activity and not a puzzle. I have in the past mentioned to ROs that it would be nice to design simpler stages. When I show up to help set up and get a chance to design a stage I do so very simply. Folks seem to enjoy them.

 

 

Alas, I still see to many puzzles. What would you think of a posse' member who elected to sit out a stage and take the penalty time. I would still take care of all my posse' duties; scoring, manning the loading/unloading tables, etc. I just wouldn't shoot that stage.

 

 

If I found that I was sitting out too many stages I guess I'd have to find myself another club at which to shoot. May I have your opinions please?

 

 

Would sitting out a stage be improper etiquitte? That was the question, right? yes, IMHO it would be. If ya came to shoot, shoot. If ya think they are playing mind games with ya, have a tet-a-tet with the club honcho in private, and either take what is offered or don't cast a long, dark shadow on the day by protesting while others are having fun. Ya can let yer choice be known by staying home or going fishing. If yer right, others will do the same, and soon enough the club will get the message or not.

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Uh... this is supposed to be fun

 

 

whatever the stage, you should shoot it, even if you have to take your time. When I started this we would toss sticks of dynamite (pvc with wicks), throw knifes, play cards, throw a rope over a plastic steer head, kick open a outhouse door, etc

 

Somewhere along the line it became "how fast can I empty my guns" it became less fun

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I come to a match with sufficent ammunition to shoot the match and a couple of extra stages. I don't like leaving without shooting that ammunition. Unless it was unsafe, or I was in ill health I would shoot the stage. The only person you are hurting by sitting out the stage is yourself. If you don't like the stage writer's work you can always vote with your feet and not show up to the next match. Somebody might even notice.

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Boy, I have never seen a stage so complicated that I would consider sitting it out. It is a GAME and problem solving is part of it. I don't think anyone has driven home the cadillac cuz no one else could solve the puzzle.

 

At the club I shoot at regularly we have shooters into their 70's and 80's and if the stage is confusing to them we politely offer coaching if they would like to have it. I have never had one of them quit in the middle or not shoot, they just cowboy up and go have some fun sending lead downrange.

 

Heck once in a while even our top guns will ask for a little assistance if there is an unfamiliar sequence or sweep, no shame in that just doing their best with a little help.

 

Simple stages every time one shoots would get pretty boring pretty quick I would think.

 

Regards

 

:)

 

Gateway Kid

 

BTW to answer the OP --- yes I think it would be poor ettiquete (sp) to protest by sitting out

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What constitutes fun for one shooter is often a bore for another shooter. If it gets to the point where a club is in a rut, then write some stages and submit them, then stand back and be prepared for the nay-sayers.

 

Always try what is there and make subtle suggestions for changes if you plan on coming back often. Some folks won't change, others will, but it is always best to attempt to be part of the solution, rather than quitting or whining.

 

I once wrote a stage that was used, but set-up much differently than I had laid out in my design, I arrived, thought the set-up was incomplete and changed it. I thought for a while my head was going to be handed back to me to take home separately. Folks can look at the same stage and some will set it big and close, others will set it small and far because they have their own preferences.

 

My personal preference is more along the lines of flow, if one stage hangs up the posse or even worse, other posse's, then the match is much less enjoyable. I've never heard of anyone complaining that the posse moved too fast through the stage, but I have seen lots of folks leave before the match was done because time ran out on them or they got too tired.

 

If you have a choice in clubs then chose the one that is most like your preferences, otherwise be positive and helpful and try to get things adjusted more to your own liking.

 

Doc Nelson

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Attended a shoot where the stages were written by a brand new ROII. One stage had a different sweep for each of the 4 guns. I felt like suggesting we just do algebra problems rather than shoot. Didn't. Lived through it. He'll learn!

Don't sweat the petty stuff. Shoot and have fun.

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Shoot or go home sez I. :)

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I'm with AJ on this, to me it would be bad etiquette. Shoot it and let the MD know what the problem is.

 

Or you can do like me, wait for the timer to beep, look at the TO and yell FREESTYLE!!! Then shoot it however you want. Youll get the P of course and maybe some misses too as the spotters will be looking where they are supposed to while you arent shooting there.

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